Incardona / Martinez

[jrhendy]

I see on another thread that Billy was playing Rafael in Dallas last night 9/7, 8/7. While the old Rafael (before he was reported dead) would be a favorite, he doesn't quite hit em like he used to (coming back from the dead may may have something to do with it). While I am rooting for my old friend Rafael, I think this is a tough game for him because Billy has been in constant action lately for high stakes and Rafael is on the comeback trail. Billy seems to be able to get an edge in most of his matchups. Is it because they are shooting the toothpick at the lumberyard?

[gulfportdoc]

I see on another thread that Billy was playing Rafael in Dallas last night 9/7, 8/7. While the old Rafael (before he was reported dead) would be a favorite, he doesn't quite hit em like he used to (coming back from the dead may may have something to do with it). While I am rooting for my old friend Rafael, I think this is a tough game for him because Billy has been in constant action lately for high stakes and Rafael is on the comeback trail. Billy seems to be able to get an edge in most of his matchups. Is it because they are shooting the toothpick at the lumberyard?
John, is Billy getting or giving the weight? Billy plays very well, and he doesn't rattle. His session with Joyner made me a believer. I watched the whole thing, and he's a true pro.

Doc

[jrhendy]

John, is Billy getting or giving the weight? Billy plays very well, and he doesn't rattle. His session with Joyner made me a believer. I watched the whole thing, and he's a true pro.

Doc

He is getting and he may need it if Rafael plays anywhere near his old speed. Before Rafael went through some health problems and his supposed demise, he was liable to beat anybody except a few at the top. He isn't quite the same now, but in my opinion Billy wouldn't like it even. Too much firepower. I would be interested in what some of the other posters think. I have been wrong before, but usually when I bet on myself.

[Pelican]

Ya know John, that be why I be done quit bettin' on me years ago :D

Pel

[senor]

He is getting and he may need it if Rafael plays anywhere near his old speed. Before Rafael went through some health problems and his supposed demise, he was liable to beat anybody except a few at the top. He isn't quite the same now, but in my opinion Billy wouldn't like it even. Too much firepower. I would be interested in what some of the other posters think. I have been wrong before, but usually when I bet on myself.

I agree, an even game I think RM would win. However, for someone who has so much imagination and creativity playing 9 ball, you would think he would be a better 'manager of the game' playing one pocket. Definately not his strong suit, IMO.

[One Pocket Ghost]

He is getting and he may need it if Rafael plays anywhere near his old speed. Before Rafael went through some health problems and his supposed demise, he was liable to beat anybody except a few at the top. He isn't quite the same now, but in my opinion Billy wouldn't like it even. Too much firepower. I would be interested in what some of the other posters think. I have been wrong before, but usually when I bet on myself.


John........I have watched and played both of them (Billy many, many times) and I agree with your assessment of their games/matchup.............And I agree with you about Rafael's game back when he was in his prime - imo, the one flaw in his game back then, was too much 'machismo' - wanted to shoot at everything and not play a safety - Billy's always been the opposite, very calculating and smart about his shot choices....................Ghost

[andre700]

i was talking to raphael a couple months ago.he is still not 100% but he's hungry.that might make the game.

[Pelican]

i was talking to raphael a couple months ago.he is still not 100% but he's hungry.that might make the game.

Hard to bet against a player when has "the need to feed".

Pel

[JohnInNH]

Hi all,

Martinez plays great nine ball, since this is one pocket billy has the edge at any rate I'd love to see the match.

Good luck to all.

John

[Cal]

Did they match up? If so what was the results?

[Terry Ardeno]

He is getting and he may need it if Rafael plays anywhere near his old speed. Before Rafael went through some health problems and his supposed demise, he was liable to beat anybody except a few at the top. He isn't quite the same now, but in my opinion Billy wouldn't like it even. Too much firepower. I would be interested in what some of the other posters think. I have been wrong before, but usually when I bet on myself.

John,

I'm surprised that Rafael's games is so highly rated (over Billy's). Of the two, I would say hands down Billy is the fav in any 9 ball or 1 pocket match up. Not doubting your asessment, I'm more curious than anything. If Rafael is so strong, how come he's never won a major title? Frankly, I've never heard Rafael's name mentioned when it comes to great one pocket players. I do know that he's a pretty strong 9 ball player, but not championship caliber there either. More along the speed of Morro or someone in that range.

If you can add anything to those of us who are curious as to how or when his one pocket game became so strong, I d'e appreciate it.

Thanks John.
Terry

[SactownTom]

I've seen Rafael play both 9 ball and One Pocket and I think he's won or placed high in a lot of 9 ball events (was it the 2001-2 Atlantic City 9 ball open?) 2nd place.

Rafael has also played One Pocket at the Derby and placed high in the $$$ a few times in the first 3 or 4 DCC events.

Rafael and Billy Palmer (west coast 1pkt player of national fame) matched up a few years ago for some huge jelly bean$ and it was very close till the end when Billy won by a game.

Rafael can play One Pocket, no doubt in my mind. He use to spar with a Sacramento kid named Tony Chohan.

[jrhendy]

John,

I'm surprised that Rafael's games is so highly rated (over Billy's). Of the two, I would say hands down Billy is the fav in any 9 ball or 1 pocket match up. Not doubting your asessment, I'm more curious than anything. If Rafael is so strong, how come he's never won a major title? Frankly, I've never heard Rafael's name mentioned when it comes to great one pocket players. I do know that he's a pretty strong 9 ball player, but not championship caliber there either. More along the speed of Morro or someone in that range.

If you can add anything to those of us who are curious as to how or when his one pocket game became so strong, I d'e appreciate it.

Thanks John.
Terry

The first time I saw Rafael was during of the early Reno Tornaments and he was at Keystone Billiards. Morro was putting together some $$ for him to play Monk (Warren Costanza) some $300 a game one pocket. I watched him play a couple of games and told Morro he doesn't know how to play one pocket. Morro said "He will learn. He is the best player ever out of Mexico". He didn't learn quick enough in that spot & they blew a couple thousand, but it showed me what they thought of his game. We hung around the same pool room, Hard Times in Bellflower, and I watched him play some unbelievable pool. It took a while for his one pocket to come up, and his style is unique because of his shot making ability, but he certainly is capable of beating any player in almost any game he chooses to play. I watched him play a top one pocket player out of Oklahoma for $1,000 a game a few years back in Las Vegas and get the cash. His game may not be what it was a few years back but he still can play. I wouldn't say his game is or was rated over Billy's, but in my opinion when they were both at their best, it was close at either game. Billy got the cash the only time they played that I know of. In my opinion, at his best, Rafael was near championship caliber at 9 ball. He was a $$ player more than a tournament player, but was right there in most of the tournaments I saw him play in.

[Terry Ardeno]

John (and SacTown Tom)

Thanks for the replies and your assessment of his speed. Prior to reading this today, I always thought of Rafael Martinez as
1. The only players who regularly has rumors of him having died. I think 3 times now on AZB he's been declared dead...
2. He supposedly had been beaten almost to death by muggers that left him...
almost dead....
3. The strongest player from Mexico
4. Probably a better money player than tournament player.
5. A "one trick pony", in that I only knew him as a somewhat accomplished 9 baller. I had no idea his one pocket game is thought so high of.

After learning all of this, personally, I'm still thinking that Billy is, was and will be the stronger one pocket player of the two. That's not to diminish Rafael, who I now know is stronger than I suspected. However, as great a player that Billy is as a former World 9 Ball Champion, I think over all, he himself is now a better one pocket player than he is as a 9 baller. His game has been honed thru countless match ups over the years against the best 1 holers. He's been in that arena more often and has accomplished more in that arena, than Rafael has.

I do like these fantasy match ups and comparisions though. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and opinions with us!

PS- As Cal asked, did they play yet???

[jrhendy]

John (and SacTown Tom)

Thanks for the replies and your assessment of his speed. Prior to reading this today, I always thought of Rafael Martinez as
1. The only players who regularly has rumors of him having died. I think 3 times now on AZB he's been declared dead...
2. He supposedly had been beaten almost to death by muggers that left him...
almost dead....
3. The strongest player from Mexico
4. Probably a better money player than tournament player.
5. A "one trick pony", in that I only knew him as a somewhat accomplished 9 baller. I had no idea his one pocket game is thought so high of.

After learning all of this, personally, I'm still thinking that Billy is, was and will be the stronger one pocket player of the two. That's not to diminish Rafael, who I now know is stronger than I suspected. However, as great a player that Billy is as a former World 9 Ball Champion, I think over all, he himself is now a better one pocket player than he is as a 9 baller. His game has been honed thru countless match ups over the years against the best 1 holers. He's been in that arena more often and has accomplished more in that arena, than Rafael has.

I do like these fantasy match ups and comparisions though. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and opinions with us!

PS- As Cal asked, did they play yet???

I respect Billy's one pocket game, his gamble and ability to match up, but in my opinion Billy wouldn't consider playing Rafael even one pocket.. When they did play recently for $300 a game, I thought somebody posted that Billy was getting 9/7, 8/7 in that game. I do not know who won.

[JG-in-KY]

He's won a Hardtimes one pocket jamboree tournament, and won two major nine ball titles (Bicycle Club - 94; Sands Regent - 2000), both paid over 10K. http://www.azbilliards.com/thepros/2000showplayer2007.cfm?playernum=98

[gulfportdoc]

I respect Billy's one pocket game, his gamble and ability to match up, but in my opinion Billy wouldn't consider playing Rafael even one pocket.. When they did play recently for $300 a game, I thought somebody posted that Billy was getting 9/7, 8/7 in that game. I do not know who won.
John, did Martinez ever match up in one-hole with Tony Chohan? If so, did they play even? I'm surprised that Billy might need weight from Martinez. Raphael must play pretty strong!

Doc

[jrhendy]

John, did Martinez ever match up in one-hole with Tony Chohan? If so, did they play even? I'm surprised that Billy might need weight from Martinez. Raphael must play pretty strong!

Doc

I never saw them play, but they may have crossed paths. As strong as Rafael is, he could not play Tony even and get there. Tony was a monster when he left Sacramento about 5 or 6 months ago and probably plays better now. IMO he is in the top 5 anywhere and top 2 or 3 in the USA. I know some of the International crowd are touting Niels & others but I just don't think they can reach that high level so quickly. Niels has a blog/website somewhere and they were talking about him winning some $100/200 sets against Efren getting 9/7. I hope they come over here and start gambling and get a USA gambling education playing onepocket. It is great to see the rising popularity of one pocket everywhere. Too bad we can't get more response on this site.

[senor]

I respect Billy's one pocket game, his gamble and ability to match up, but in my opinion Billy wouldn't consider playing Rafael even one pocket.. When they did play recently for $300 a game, I thought somebody posted that Billy was getting 9/7, 8/7 in that game. I do not know who won.

One of the regulars said they broke even.

[SactownTom]

Doc,

From 2003 until 2005 (just before Rafael took some time off from pool) Tony and Rafael did play 1pkt against each other quite often in the finals of our monthly 1pkt event. Tony's 1pkt experience has progressed faster than I have ever seen anyone play this game. Tony is only 25 years old (maybe 26 by now) and it was always a tough game for either player in the finals. Rafael usually came out on top in those final matches. I don't think that would be the same outcome in a matchup today.
As far as I know, Tony and Rafael never matched up for any big bucks at 1pkt.

BTW, Tony has a great 9 ball game also.




John, did Martinez ever match up in one-hole with Tony Chohan? If so, did they play even? I'm surprised that Billy might need weight from Martinez. Raphael must play pretty strong!

Doc

[Terry Ardeno]

Tony is only 25 years old (maybe 26 by now)



Tom,
Right you are. He was born June 28, 1981 (26 as we speak)