"VERY IMPORTANT NEWS"!

[OldHasBeen]

"THIS NEEDS TO BE STRIGHTENED OUT NOW"!

Can anyone please tell me WHY would anyone be playing with this Red Circle Cue Ball when it is UNDER SIZED to all the object balls?

Believe me - I know of what I speak.

I have played pool for over 44 years and the size & weight of the cue ball makes a HUGE difference in playing.

I didn't play seriously for a couple of years and when I started back I thought the reason I was banking & playing so bad was because of the Simonies Cloth that everyone had.

NO - I also noticed that everyone was playing with this red circle cue ball instead of the blue circle I had always used. I was told it is because it is a better & livelier ball, so now it is the standard. I assumed it was at least just as good until I couldn't figure out why my banks were so off.
I weighed (w/ diamond scale) & measured (w/ a wooden rack) the difference between the red circle and the object balls (centennial). Then I did the same with the blue circle.

"THE RED CIRCLE IS SMALLER & LIGHTER THAN THE OBJECT BALLS"!

HELLOOOOO! - This makes a Hugh difference in "The Hit"
When the center of the cue ball is meeting the center of an object ball and it isn't in the outer most extreme of the object balls circular edge -

We got problems, my friends. Yes, I said problems right here in River City. Now that starts with a P and it rhymes with T and that stands for TROUBLE!

So now I pull out my Old Blue Circle Cue Ball from my private set that I got from Harley Race years ago in Florida and guess what - It is exactly perfect in size and weight compared with the centennial object balls.

I start playing and within 15 min. I am playing & banking as though it is 1977.

This does not take a genius or mathematician to find out for yourself. All you have to do is take two object balls and put the red circle in the middle up against the rail. Now take a wooden rack or ruler and come over the top of all three balls.
THE CENTER BALL - THE RED CIRCLE - WILL STAY AS THE OBJECT BALLS MOVE AWAY.

Now do the same with the blue circle and you will find that all three leave the rail at the same time because they are all the same size.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A HUGE DIFFERENCE IN PLAYABILITY. THIS MUST GET OUT TO THE POOL WORLD - ALL RED CIRCLES MUST BE THROWN EITHER IN THE TRASH OR AT "OSAMA", A.S.A.P.

I can & will adapt to the many changes that have come along with the advancement of the game - Jump Cues, Better Cloth, Better Rakes, Cue Extensions, Etc., Etc.

BUT I WON'T ACCEPT OR USE ANY PRODUCT THAT CHANGES THE FUNDAMENTIALS.

There are WAY too many tools & toys that are introduced and promoted as being better just so someone can make a buck. I'm not against ANYONE making money unless it is at the expense of the game we love to play & watch.
TY - "NOW DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT"!

[SactownTom]

I think your point is well made. I agree, but most of my 40+ years have been a mixture of a lot of different cue balls. From the bar box heavy ball, to the red and blue circle and lots of variations inbetween.

I think there should be a STANDARD cue ball weight and size for pocket billiards. I also think there should be STANDARD rules.

This issue of different cue balls is as complicated as the rules issue. IMO.

Do you have any suggestions about how to Standardize the cue balls?

[OldHasBeen]

Keith responded on azbilliards that he preferres the Blue Circle also. But there seems to be a difference between the size & weight of the Centennial balls & the Super Aramith Balls. As it looks right now, The Red Circle is best for the Super Aramith balls & the Blue Circle is best for the Centennial Balls. Keith is going to poll the pros & get some feedback. Will let you know - if Keith gets back and what he says. To me it seems that the deciding factor should be the height of the rails from the bed - This is what will make the balls (both object & cue) react differently.
I AGREE THAT THERE SHOULD BE A STANDARD CUE BALL - THE ONE THAT IS BEST - NOT THE ONE THAT PAY$ THE MOST TO PROMOTE.

[stevelomako]

Centennials are made by Aramith exclusively for BRUNSWICK.....good luck on having them use aramith super pro's or anything else for that matter.

Then ask Diamond Billiards to use centennials at the DCC and see what Greg tells you, why would he advertise for Brunswick?

Who really cares what cue balls someone wants to get beat with.......good players adjust and bad players are still bad no matter what is out there.

I really think you're getting a little bent out of shape on this one. When you were young did it matter? Big ball, little ball.....big table, bar table....pool table, snooker table....pockets too tight, pockets too loose.......etc., etc.

Anyway, its just a matter of money...centennials are at 180 a set minimum, cheap aramiths you can get for 40-50 dollars tops. What are most pool rooms going to go for? Then, the ones with centennials need new cue balls because the balls are getting nicked up from the bangers jumping off the table and hitting metal chair and table legs. Now you can pay 15-20 for a blue circle or 5-8 for a red circle.....what are most pool rooms going to go for?

Personally, I love centennials and using the blue circle that comes with them but if someone wants to get spanked with something else.....that's OK too.

Steve

[lfigueroa]

Tom, this is old news. Nowadays, you've got to be able to play with a wide variety of cue balls, including the multi dot ball that is becoming increasingly popular. Many years ago, Bill Marshal and I weighed all the cue balls at C&C with a jewelers scale. The weights (and sizes) were all over the place, from a very lite no dot, to some red circles, to a very heavy red triangle ball. In addition to all that there are now those cue balls out there with the intertwined SA logo, as well as your beloved blue circle, and the aforementioned multi dot. Depending on the ball, your mileage will vary... but so will your opponent's. You've just got to be able to adjust.

[OldHasBeen]

No, Lou - I don't need to adjust - I no longer play to put food in my mouth (YOU know I haven't missed any meals lately) or purchase the necessities of life. I simply have set up shop over at The Break in Cahokia and play $20/$30 Nine Ball or One-Pocket every afternoon. If this sounds like an invitation, it's because IT IS!

Steve - What your saying is that the manufactures are dictating to the players what we play with. It always comes down to the $ doesn’t it?
But if the BEST players in any given poolroom insist on playing with a standardized Cue Ball & Set - You can't tell me that the novice’s & wannabe's won't follow suit.
Yes, this is a "Capitalistic Society but we are also a society of "Supply And Demand"!
ECONOMIC FACT - IF a standard & preference is set by the pros - The supply industry WILL listen to the $$$.
TY
Ps - There is a much larger discussion on this subject going on @ azbilliards.com

[stevelomako]

Tom,

The manufacturers don't dictate what is played with...they make a product and it is purchased.....pool rooms are going to buy the cheapest product, always have, always will (there are a FEW exceptions).

You say I can't tell you the novice's and wanabee's won't follow suit, but I have to say.....THEY WON'T BECAUSE THEY DON'T CARE.

About your comment regarding the supply industry: Since when have they listened to Pro's? You're saying if the pros' (who is that anyway?) want centennials at every venue and won't play if they don't use centennials that all tournaments will start using centennials??? Like I said before....ask Greg Sullivan to use Brunswick balls at his tournament.

P.S. I like the discussion on this site

[hemicudas]

[QUOTE=OldHasBeen]No, Lou - I don't need to adjust - I no longer play to put food in my mouth (YOU know I haven't missed any meals lately) or purchase the necessities of life. I simply have set up shop over at The Break in Cahokia and play $20/$30 Nine Ball or One-Pocket every afternoon. If this sounds like an invitation, it's because IT IS.

Finally!!!!! After all this time, OP.org, has had a challenge issued and hopefully accepted. Damn, I love action.

Now, when, where, what game, how much and can I get some rail action without getting put in the middle, lol.

[lfigueroa]

[QUOTE=OldHasBeen]No, Lou - I don't need to adjust - I no longer play to put food in my mouth (YOU know I haven't missed any meals lately) or purchase the necessities of life. I simply have set up shop over at The Break in Cahokia and play $20/$30 Nine Ball or One-Pocket every afternoon. If this sounds like an invitation, it's because IT IS!

Tom, as bad as I play, I already have all the invitations I need. But if you ever happen to stray out to Chesterfield, you can get played. And if *that* sounds like an invitation… it is.

[OldHasBeen]

Lou - You say - "I can get played". Hell, Buddy could get played if there was someone waiting there for him. You don't state with WHO, WHAT game, or for HOW MUCH.
I envy your position of having plenty of invitations to play, however I am only interested in games that involve CA$H. That is why I am over at The Break everyday.
I do think that Chesterfield is a great room with excellent equipment that offers a very enjoyable playing atmosphere. Jerry has done a wonderful job out there.
I however do business everyday in downtown St. Louis dealing with my direct mail product and crossing just over the river to The Break is very convenient. I wouldn’t care to drive 80 miles round trip to talk.
Terry is starting to play everyday and as everyone knows, he might play huge matche$ at any given time with anyone who comes in. Terry & Dale played 9 hours yesterday and it was a great game to sweat & or wager on. Gary Sills, Brad Levin, Dale, Terry, Joe Woolford, Andy Quinn & myself, etc., etc. are subject to be "In Action" over there anytime-24,7,365.
I do know ABOUT how you play and understand that you are serious student of the game. You have placed very high in some major tournaments and are a threat to beat anyone at anytime. I however am nothing but a fat Old Has Been who is trying to resurrect a stroke that has been deceased for many, many years. This offer of mine to play you EVEN One-Pocket, For $40 "Or More" @ The Break cannot last forever. You are rapidly going up the ladder and will soon be one of the best players in the Nation. I will soon be just sitting "On The Bench" telling old stories of "Who Shot John In 1943"!
COME AND GET SOME, WHILE THE GETTINS GOOD"
TY & GL

[Pelican]

[QUOTE=OldHasBeen]No, Lou - I don't need to adjust - I no longer play to put food in my mouth (YOU know I haven't missed any meals lately) or purchase the necessities of life. I simply have set up shop over at The Break in Cahokia and play $20/$30 Nine Ball or One-Pocket every afternoon. If this sounds like an invitation, it's because IT IS.

Finally!!!!! After all this time, OP.org, has had a challenge issued and hopefully accepted. Damn, I love action.

Now, when, where, what game, how much and can I get some rail action without getting put in the middle, lol.

OK $Bill - yer on. I'll take the old guy - hey us old guys gotta stick together :D :D

See ya in Starkville my friend, Pel

[lfigueroa]

Lou - You say - "I can get played". Hell, Buddy could get played if there was someone waiting there for him. You don't state with WHO, WHAT game, or for HOW MUCH.
I envy your position of having plenty of invitations to play, however I am only interested in games that involve CA$H. That is why I am over at The Break everyday.
I do think that Chesterfield is a great room with excellent equipment that offers a very enjoyable playing atmosphere. Jerry has done a wonderful job out there.
I however do business everyday in downtown St. Louis dealing with my direct mail product and crossing just over the river to The Break is very convenient. I wouldn’t care to drive 80 miles round trip to talk.
Terry is starting to play everyday and as everyone knows, he might play huge matche$ at any given time with anyone who comes in. Terry & Dale played 9 hours yesterday and it was a great game to sweat & or wager on. Gary Sills, Brad Levin, Dale, Terry, Joe Woolford, Andy Quinn & myself, etc., etc. are subject to be "In Action" over there anytime-24,7,365.
I do know ABOUT how you play and understand that you are serious student of the game. You have placed very high in some major tournaments and are a threat to beat anyone at anytime. I however am nothing but a fat Old Has Been who is trying to resurrect a stroke that has been deceased for many, many years. This offer of mine to play you EVEN One-Pocket, For $40 "Or More" @ The Break cannot last forever. You are rapidly going up the ladder and will soon be one of the best players in the Nation. I will soon be just sitting "On The Bench" telling old stories of "Who Shot John In 1943"!
COME AND GET SOME, WHILE THE GETTINS GOOD"
TY & GL

Tom, Tom, Tom. Come on. I think you know enough about me to know that when I said “you can get played,” I clearly meant by me. You complain that I didn’t say what game, or for how much (little details you left out of your original “invitation”). But certainly you know enough about me to know the game would be 1pocket.

And, I think you also know enough about me to know I carry cash. Like Bob Huddleston use to say, “It ain’t too heavy to carry around.”

I’m sorry it would be an inconvenience for you to drive so far out west. But as I said: if you ever stray out thataway, you can get played -- by me -- at 1pocket. If you ever make that long, long, long twenty-five minute drive out there from downtown, we can negotiate the amount, but I promise to make it worth the expedition.

I’m no former road player who traveled with the big boys. I’m just a retired military guy, who occasionally likes to play the random game of 1pocket. I know you’re getting in stroke and once you get there, I’ll have no chance. Soooo, my offer to play you @ Chesterfield won’t last for ever, either.

Come get some… while you can.

[OldHasBeen]

I sincerely thank you for the offer and hope we can get together some day. I do buy quite a lot of my clothes out at Dean's Clothier's that is across the street from Chesterfield, so you never know.
I envy your position of being retired and having the opportunity of going anywhere you choose during the day to play pool.
I however have a Sophomore @ St. Louis University & a Senior @ Ursline Academy who wants to go to Harvard. I have a business to run and a commitment to be at the Main Post Office (downtown) almost everyday. Sooooo!
Lou - You know what I think is the best part of this whole conversation? Just the fact that we are "Matching Up" OR even trying, on an Internet site. I think this is something that could revolutionize the way players negotiate a match and can only help the game.
I can envision poolrooms that are "Online" and being able to watch live matches between the pros on large screen Monitors/TV's. ?BCN?
This concept could also be used to let everyone know that Lou is playing Tom for X$ @ Chesterfield OR Terry is playing Joe Woolford for X$ at The Break, Etc, Etc.
I am sitting at my desk, running my business, on the phone with my Reps AND discussing a potential pool game. Wonderful Country, America!
"THIS IS GREAT"!
I mean it when I say I appreciate your offer to - Step Up - and play Even One Pocket with me out there for at least $40 a game. And I am also sure that if I can make it out there, one of us would win at least $280 OR MORE.
AGAIN, TY & GL

[gulfportdoc]

"
"THE RED CIRCLE IS SMALLER & LIGHTER THAN THE OBJECT BALLS"!

"!

You make some good points, Ty. I had a long conversation with Tommy Kennedy awhile back about the variation in weights of the red circle CBs. He told me that he went through hundreds of them to find 15 that weighed exactly 6 ounces. Said he has boxes of them at home. Some are as much as 1/2 ounce or more lighter. He uses the 6 ounce weight with each set of Super Aramith balls on all of his tour stops. I definitely noticed a difference, especially with position play. The 6 ounce CB seems to roll through the OB better. I'm sure some of it is psychological, but while it's true that players should be able to make an adjustment in a wide array of equipment settings, I like to be confident that I'm playing with matched pool balls.

I've never measured the diameters, but I will this weekend using your method. Pool balls do wear with use, which makes them smaller, so it's nice to have newer merchandise. Of course we're talking serious players here. Bangers wouldn't know or care about these differences, so naturally the average room owner wouldn't care either.

Doc

[OldHasBeen]

DOC - Thank You for your excellent response. Now, since I'm really "Out Of Touch" can you please tell me where I can buy the original Blue Circle Cue Ball ??? Not the whole Centennial set, but just the Cue Ball.
TY & GL

[lfigueroa]

I mean it when I say I appreciate your offer to - Step Up - and play Even One Pocket with me out there for at least $40 a game. And I am also sure that if I can make it out there, one of us would win at least $280 OR MORE.
AGAIN, TY & GL[/QUOTE]

Clearly, if anyone here ever needs a pre-nuptial agreement worked up, they should look you up. Yes, I’ll be happy to play you, 1pocket, even. But as I said, we’ll have to negotiate the bet once we’re both in the same room. Someone might win $280, or more, or less, or we might play to a draw. Who knows…

[gulfportdoc]

DOC - Thank You for your excellent response. Now, since I'm really "Out Of Touch" can you please tell me where I can buy the original Blue Circle Cue Ball ??? Not the whole Centennial set, but just the Cue Ball.
TY & GL

Ty, I don't know. I looked in the new Mueller catalogue, but no blue circle. They offer a red circle and also a black circle. I couldn't say what the difference is betwee the blue and black. Seems to me when I ordered a new set of Centennials awhile back, they came with a black circle CB. Could be wrong. You might post that question about blue circles on another forum, such as RSB or AZ or whatever. I'm sure you'd get a barrel full of responses. Some of them might even be on topic!! <grin>

Let us know what you found out.

Doc

[OldHasBeen]

You Stated - Yes, I’ll be happy to play you, 1pocket, even. But as I said, we’ll have to negotiate the bet once we’re both in the same room. Someone might win $280, or more, or less, or we might play to a draw. Who knows…

Lou, Lou, Lou - As I have previously stated, I Don't Want To Drive All The Way Out There To - "Talk".
If you think I was trying to Pre-Qualify our playing details ..... Your Right.

As I am sure you are basing My Playing Abilities on pre conceived rumors of how I USED to play, I am also basing my opinion about getting ALL the details worked out first, on a rumored reputation about you.

I find this venue (azbilliards, Forum) MUCH more convenient. I really don't think this is going anywhere anyway, so why not get ALL the details worked out here first.
Once we come to a firm agreement (which is not looking very good), on ALL the details, we can just print it out, meet & play as agreed.
TY & GL

[hemicudas]

Ty, I don't know. I looked in the new Mueller catalogue, but no blue circle. They offer a red circle and also a black circle. I couldn't say what the difference is betwee the blue and black. Seems to me when I ordered a new set of Centennials awhile back, they came with a black circle CB. Could be wrong. You might post that question about blue circles on another forum, such as RSB or AZ or whatever. I'm sure you'd get a barrel full of responses. Some of them might even be on topic!! <grin>

Let us know what you found out.

Doc
Doc, are you going to Starkville this weekend?

[gulfportdoc]

Doc, are you going to Starkville this weekend?
No, I can't make it Hemi. I did go to the Kenner tourney 10/9. Played like a *girl*... Lost to two guys I'm supposed to give the 7 or 8. I'll be in Mobile this weekend. Probably stop in and check out those thieves at Breakers. See if there's any action.

You're definitely coming to Grady's event on 12/8-12/12 aren't cha? I don't think there's much coming up between this weekend and then. I'm so sick of 9 ball I could barf. :eek: I want to get more one hole under my belt!

Doc

[hemicudas]

No, I can't make it Hemi. I did go to the Kenner tourney 10/9. Played like a *girl*... Lost to two guys I'm supposed to give the 7 or 8. I'll be in Mobile this weekend. Probably stop in and check out those thieves at Breakers. See if there's any action.

You're definitely coming to Grady's event on 12/8-12/12 aren't cha? I don't think there's much coming up between this weekend and then. I'm so sick of 9 ball I could barf. :eek: I want to get more one hole under my belt!

Doc Don't be over loading that behind, Doc. Some of them gals can play, lol.

I hope to be there but it's too early to tell.

[laces]

I cannot believe that this discussion is still going on. I have seen the post a million times and you know what? In reality,where I live,it dosent matter if the cue ball is a couple thousandths smaller or larger than the object ball. And if it does matter to anybody in this forum I do not want to play anybody because from the sounds of it everybody is a world champion. Some of the best players I have seen come through play with house sticks never hit a ball they just start gambling and they win all the money most of the time. So if they can adjust in a couple of minutes I don't see how hitting the same balls day after day can take so long to get used to.

[gulfportdoc]

Don't be over loading that behind, Doc. Some of them gals can play, lol.

I hope to be there but it's too early to tell.

Whoops, my text was edited Hemi. My original word was not *girl* but a word meaning a girl who likes other girls. Meant to be a joke. jeesh...

Doc

[Pelican]

Laces, I agree 110%.

A couple of days ago my Step-son had a problem with his 30" shaft and had to shoot one night with a standard length shaft. He moaned and whined till I was sick of hearing it. I told him that if 1" of shaft length made him shoot that much worse he was too damn equipment sensitive. He jumped up and ranted how I didn't understand and etc etc. I told him he would never make it as a hustler for the very reason you named. He would have to be able to walk in any pool hall, pull a stick off the rack, and gamble.
He said he aspirted to be a "tournament" player and did not have any desire to be a hustler. Now the top tournament players make barely 6 figures - and have to pay tax on that. A good hustler will make 1/4 mil and it's all CASH. The difference - ego. The tournament player has a desire to be seen, envied, and admired. The hustler hopes nobody remembers him so he can come back around.

Later, Pel :)

[lfigueroa]

You Stated - Yes, I’ll be happy to play you, 1pocket, even. But as I said, we’ll have to negotiate the bet once we’re both in the same room. Someone might win $280, or more, or less, or we might play to a draw. Who knows…

Lou, Lou, Lou - As I have previously stated, I Don't Want To Drive All The Way Out There To - "Talk".
If you think I was trying to Pre-Qualify our playing details ..... Your Right.

As I am sure you are basing My Playing Abilities on pre conceived rumors of how I USED to play, I am also basing my opinion about getting ALL the details worked out first, on a rumored reputation about you.

I find this venue (azbilliards, Forum) MUCH more convenient. I really don't think this is going anywhere anyway, so why not get ALL the details worked out here first.
Once we come to a firm agreement (which is not looking very good), on ALL the details, we can just print it out, meet & play as agreed.
TY & GL

lol. Tom, if there’s one of us that has a “rumored reputation” around St. Louis, it’s certainly you.

You made the noise about playing, so if you want to play: show up, match up, freeze it up, and step up. If all that’s too inconvenient for you, then perhaps you should go woof at someone else.

[OldHasBeen]

lol. Tom, if there’s one of us that has a “rumored reputation” around St. Louis, it’s certainly you.

You made the noise about playing, so if you want to play: show up, match up, freeze it up, and step up. If all that’s too inconvenient for you, then perhaps you should go woof at someone else.

Lou - The first post (from YOU to ME) was on 10/6 @ 8:19 am -
Tom, this is old news. Nowadays, you've got to be able to play with a wide variety of cue balls, including the multi dot ball that is becoming increasingly popular. Many years ago, Bill Marshal and I weighed all the cue balls at C&C with a jewelers scale. The weights (and sizes) were all over the place, from a very lite no dot, to some red circles, to a very heavy red triangle ball. In addition to all that there are now those cue balls out there with the intertwined SA logo, as well as your beloved blue circle, and the aforementioned multi dot. Depending on the ball, your mileage will vary... but so will your opponent's. You've just got to be able to adjust.

Lou - I am not woofing - I'm trying to match up with you. You have a great reputation BUT it includes TALKING & NEGOTIATING FOR SOMETIMES HOURS - to actually getting up to play.
Remember - I've been there & done that!
I am simply trying to eliminate ALL "Wiggle Room" from any match we may have. If we can ever come to terms - All I want to do is PLAY.
TY & GL

[OldHasBeen]

Laces, I agree 110%.

A couple of days ago my Step-son had a problem with his 30" shaft and had to shoot one night with a standard length shaft. He moaned and whined till I was sick of hearing it. I told him that if 1" of shaft length made him shoot that much worse he was too damn equipment sensitive. He jumped up and ranted how I didn't understand and etc etc. I told him he would never make it as a hustler for the very reason you named. He would have to be able to walk in any pool hall, pull a stick off the rack, and gamble.
He said he aspirted to be a "tournament" player and did not have any desire to be a hustler. Now the top tournament players make barely 6 figures - and have to pay tax on that. A good hustler will make 1/4 mil and it's all CASH. The difference - ego. The tournament player has a desire to be seen, envied, and admired. The hustler hopes nobody remembers him so he can come back around.
Later, Pel :)

There was a Full Page Newspaper article about me on Dec. 26, 1977 and it was titled - THE HUSTLE IS ON
This Avatar photo is from the article.
It goes into detail about my tactics, ambitions & rewards of being
"On The Road" for more than 12 years.
THE NEXT DAY THERE WAS A FULL PAGE ARTICLE TITLED - HE'S NO HUSTLER
AND IT WAS ALL ABOUT - ST. LOUIE, LOUIE

From what you have stated in your posting above - I would swear you have read these two articles.

TY & GL