Which Shot?

[Cowboy Dennis]

This shot came up in a relatively cheap set with a friend. I needed both balls in pocket A. I shot it as shown in the first diagram. But if I am in a serious game, I shoot it as shown in the second diagram. I don't mind banking the ball and going three rails for shapes. It's a standard 3-cushion shot. The bank is a little tougher but you are rewarded if you make it. Which shot do most of you shoot from here?

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3ABtf2LCui3POqn3Qcht2gCui2gKCi3gYNr3kOqn2kCeR1kbHc1kIeR1uBnP@

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3ABtf2LCui3POqn3Qcht2gCui2gPpi3gadc3kOqn2kBoR1kbQP1kMOi2kaqA4kbAS4kPXo3uCMM@

[SJDinPHX]

This shot came up in a relatively cheap set with a friend. I needed both balls in pocket A. I shot it as shown in the first diagram. But if I am in a serious game, I shoot it as shown in the second diagram. I don't mind banking the ball and going three rails for shapes. It's a standard 3-cushion shot. The bank is a little tougher but you are rewarded if you make it. Which shot do most of you shoot from here?

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3ABtf2LCui3POqn3Qcht2gCui2gKCi3gYNr3kOqn2kCeR1kbHc1kIeR1uBnP@

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3ABtf2LCui3POqn3Qcht2gCui2gPpi3gadc3kOqn2kBoR1kbQP1kMOi2kaqA4kbAS4kPXo3uCMM@

Dennis,

Cheap or funsies, fire away. but for anything over $5 I am playing it pocket speed, and killing my cue ball on the top rail. (as in your 2nd diagram0 Much better success ratio of making a good hit. Easy safety if you make it, get it close and the other guy is digging for his life.

Dick <---thinks you'd play it the same way for $100. ;)

[One Pocket Ghost]

This shot came up in a relatively cheap set with a friend. I needed both balls in pocket A. I shot it as shown in the first diagram. But if I am in a serious game, I shoot it as shown in the second diagram. I don't mind banking the ball and going three rails for shapes. It's a standard 3-cushion shot. The bank is a little tougher but you are rewarded if you make it. Which shot do most of you shoot from here?

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3ABtf2LCui3POqn3Qcht2gCui2gKCi3gYNr3kOqn2kCeR1kbHc1kIeR1uBnP@

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3ABtf2LCui3POqn3Qcht2gCui2gPpi3gadc3kOqn2kBoR1kbQP1kMOi2kaqA4kbAS4kPXo3uCMM@



I shoot the three times cross-corner bank on the 1 ball into my pocket, get my shape on the 12, and I'm out...:cool:....course I lose my action after doing that....:D

- The Banking Ghost

[blackeee]

This shot came up in a relatively cheap set with a friend. I needed both balls in pocket A. I shot it as shown in the first diagram. But if I am in a serious game, I shoot it as shown in the second diagram. I don't mind banking the ball and going three rails for shapes. It's a standard 3-cushion shot. The bank is a little tougher but you are rewarded if you make it. Which shot do most of you shoot from here?

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3ABtf2LCui3POqn3Qcht2gCui2gKCi3gYNr3kOqn2kCeR1kbHc1kIeR1uBnP@

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3ABtf2LCui3POqn3Qcht2gCui2gPpi3gadc3kOqn2kBoR1kbQP1kMOi2kaqA4kbAS4kPXo3uCMM@

Shot #2 for sure.

[Cowboy Dennis]

Dick <---thinks you'd play it the same way for $100. ;)


Dick,

I am probably one of the strangest thinkers that you have ever known, not counting mentally unstable acquaintances of yours from the past. I am much more likely to shoot the second shot the higher the bet is. I know, that makes me mentally unstable. I have to live with it, you only have to read about it.

I just can't bring myself to do it for cheap. It's kind of screwy I know.


Ghost,

I'd sure like to see a vision of the shot you described. You lost me. Not hard to do.


Dennis

[One Pocket Ghost]

Ghost,

I'd sure like to see a vision of the shot you described. You lost me. Not hard to do.


Dennis


Dennis.......I was half joking about shooting it in this spot, but there are situations where it's a very good shot to shoot - it's more often shot with the cue ball laying on the inside of the object ball - it's similar to the old three times cross-side bank shot, where you snap it backwards three cross-side rails by using a lot of stroke and english.....you're a long time One Pocket player so I would have thought that you would have known the shot....as a matter of fact while gambling with Jay Helfert 3 weeks ago at his house in L.A., I did shoot the 3 times cross-corner bank during one game, and drilled it in......if Jay reads this post he could confirm it.

- Ghost

[Cowboy Dennis]

Dennis.......I was half joking about shooting it in this spot, but there are situations where it's a very good shot to shoot - it's more often shot with the cue ball laying on the inside of the object ball - it's similar to the old three times cross-side bank shot, where you snap it backwards three cross-side rails by using a lot of stroke and english.....you're a long time One Pocket player so I would have thought that you would have known the shot....as a matter of fact while gambling with Jay Helfert 3 weeks ago at his house in L.A., I did shoot the 3 times cross-corner bank during one game, and drilled it in......if Jay reads this post he could confirm it.

- Ghost


Ghost,

Now I know what you are talking about. The cueballs position threw me off in this diagram.

Dennis

[SJDinPHX]

Dick,

I am probably one of the strangest thinkers that you have ever known, not counting mentally unstable acquaintances of yours from the past. I am much more likely to shoot the second shot the higher the bet is. I know, that makes me mentally unstable. I have to live with it, you only have to read about it.

I just can't bring myself to do it for cheap. It's kind of screwy I know.


Ghost,

I'd sure like to see a vision of the shot you described. You lost me. Not hard to do.


Dennis

Dennis, Ghost is making a funny. He's refering to a similar bank shot that is on one of Freddy's DVD's (I would guesstimate, at least 140 takes before either one of them made it on camera.)

Dick <---thinks ALL WEIn pocket games should be funsies.

[Cowboy Dennis]

Dennis, Ghost is making a funny. He's refering to a similar bank shot that is on one of Freddy's DVD's (I would guesstimate, at least 140 takes before either one of them made it on camera.)

Dick <---thinks ALL WEIn pocket games should be funsies.


Dick,

There is no doubt in my mind that you could make this shot in under 100 attempts. In fact, I'd bet on it.

The other shot is similar. Just not from the cueball position shown.

Dennis

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2KYYl1PBXQ2fYYl2fcKg4fbdw3faWh1fevB1kBXQ2kWEs@

[timdog24]

Dennis,

Cheap or funsies, fire away. but for anything over $5 I am playing it pocket speed, and killing my cue ball on the top rail. (as in your 2nd diagram0 Much better success ratio of making a good hit. Easy safety if you make it, get it close and the other guy is digging for his life.

Dick <---thinks you'd play it the same way for $100. ;)

I like these options. But, agree with Dick here. I'm lagging the 12 to my hole and keeping the cue ball on the back rail. This is totally free (unless I hit it terribly) and obviously easier to make or leave very close to my hole. If hit well, my opponent is in trouble and I like my chances from there.
The bank with the 3 rail po is usually better (for my taste) when there are a lot more balls on the table so you have a good chance of getting behind the stack and not leaving any free bank for the other guy. To control the speed of the one rail bank and sending the rock 3 rails and keeping my man off a return bank is a lot to ask for a two and stop kinda guy like myself.

[fred bentivegna]

Dennis, Ghost is making a funny. He's refering to a similar bank shot that is on one of Freddy's DVD's (I would guesstimate, at least 140 takes before either one of them made it on camera.)

Dick <---thinks ALL WEIn pocket games should be funsies.

You finally snitched on yourself. You admitted to watching my DVD. Learn anything? It's OK, you can tell the truth--for once. Anybody that really knows me, knows that when I call a double or triple rail shot it's not smart to bet that I dont make it. I could bank one in off of the moon in 140 tries.

Incidentally, re the shot in this thread, those who have studied my DVDs, and with the object ball 1/2 ball space off the rail, know that I would have a big chance to bank the one ball 1 rail cross corner, and land behind the 12 in any case. The 12 is too far away from me for my taste, but leave me around a foot away from the object ball and I can make it whistle "Dixie."

However, like timdog24 said, I would consider the 3 railer if I had plenty of ball blockers covering for me when I landed off of the 3rd rail.
the Beard

[SJDinPHX]

Heres a question for you all...Are all bank pool players certifiable, or do only certifiable people play bank pool ?
Fred, or Ghost you would have a better chance of banking one off the moon, than waiting for that triple bank to come up in 1P, where it was feasable to actually play it. (except for funsies with the Cowboy) :rolleyes:

Dick <---is sorry Fred, I learned that shot in 1951. (from "Cross Side Larry") but I did enjoy your DVD.

[vapros]

I am not the world's best banker - maybe not even in the top five - so when I shoot this shot I am usually lagging unless there is a reason (generally involving the cueball) for hitting it harder. In the situation shown, with only two balls on the table, I doubt that I would ever try the three-rail track to shooting position.

When the bank misses, and you have used more than pocket speed, it usually will come off the end rail and up table out of harm's way, but not always. If the eleven ball three-rails inside the jaws and then stops a half diamond up the long rail, you will wish you had done something else. That's my thinking, anyway.

[Cowboy Dennis]

Heres a question for you all...Are all bank pool players certifiable, or do only certifiable people play bank pool ?
Fred, or Ghost you would have a better chance of banking one off the moon, than waiting for that triple bank to come up in 1P, where it was feasable to actually play it. (except for funsies with the Cowboy) :rolleyes:

Dick <---is sorry Fred, I learned that shot in 1951. (from "Cross Side Larry") but I did enjoy your DVD.


Dick,

My point was that I did lag the 12 to my hole. Betting more I'm likely to shoot the second shot. And if anyone thinks the 12 is going to be near the hole if you miss that second shot, it won't be.

And to answer your poll question: yes, most of the bank players that I've known are certifiable. One of them had papers to prove it.

And not too many people ever had fun playing me. Are you sure you didn't learn that shot in 1951 from "Cross Eyed Larry". He always saw things differently.


Anyway,have a nice Easter everyone.

[One Pocket Ghost]

Fred, or Ghost you would have a better chance of banking one off the moon, than waiting for that triple bank to come up in 1P, where it was feasable to actually play it. (except for funsies with the Cowboy) :rolleyes:

Dick <---is sorry Fred, I learned that shot in 1951. (from "Cross Side Larry") but I did enjoy your DVD.



Now Dickie.......Did you not read the end of my post, #6 ?...:rolleyes:.....As i said in that post, the three times cross-corner bank came up for me while gambling with Jay - it was laying good, the way his table/rails were playing were good for shooting it, I shot it and drilled it in - not in 140 tries, not in 14 tries - IN ONE TRY......And also like I said, Jay can confirm it.....:cool:

- Ghost

[androd]

Dick,

If anyone thinks the 12 is going to be near the hole if you miss that second shot, it won't be.


. Are you sure you didn't learn that shot in 1951 from "Cross Eyed Larry". He always saw things differently.


Anyway,have a nice Easter everyone.

I agree with you about the 2nd. shot, in order for me to make the CB go 4 rails on the equipment I play on I have to spank the bank. Vapros said it can double the pocket and leave a bank and that may happen but it's kind of rare. I don't usually get that close. As for "Cross Eyed Larry" I'm a little paranoid but was never sure if he was looking at me.
Rod.

[gulfportdoc]

Dick's shot is the most sensible. I'd most likely shoot it. However I also like the one-rail cross corner on the 1 ball. After the lengthy thread on those type shots we had a month or two ago, I like the shot. I'd hit it with elevated cue, center ball, medium speed. The problem is that the CB might not make it all the way up table for a shot on the 12. And if I don't make or hang the 1 ball, the opponent might have a relatively easy cross corner to his hole.

Only wild 'n crazy guys like OPG and RA shoot the three railer on the 1 ball. Even RA would have to have 1/2 pint of cognac and three bennies to shoot that shot. Ghost played it on Helfert just to try to break him down...:cool:

Doc

[senor]

When the bank misses, and you have used more than pocket speed, it usually will come off the end rail and up table out of harm's way, but not always. If the eleven ball three-rails inside the jaws and then stops a half diamond up the long rail, you will wish you had done something else. That's my thinking, anyway.

Vapros, please excuse me for having fun at your expense, but my reply to that would be "A coward dies a thousand deaths";) While discretion is the better part of valor, I think aspiring one-pocketeers should be wary of having "what-ifs" dictate agressive shot selection, in particular in a situation like this where the worst case scenario of leaving an easy return bank probably has somewhere between a 3%-7% chance of happening.

Now, if you're playing someone who can bank as good as Freddy can, you need to be worrying about his ability to twist in the one ball. And this leads me to say the reason I don't like the 3-rail shape as diagrammed is that the cue ball is taking a bit of an unnatural path. For me, ideally, the cue ball would touch five rails and leave the cue ball straight in with the one ball. For the cue ball to touch five rails, the best position for the twelve would be somewhere near the foot rail spot. That way you really don't have to force the cue ball to get around the table with a lot of inside english. You can just use a half-tip of inside and the cue ball would go five rails.

So, this amounts to a long-winded way of saying I'm laying up.

[SJDinPHX]

Now Dickie.......Did you not read the end of my post, #6 ?...:rolleyes:.....As i said in that post, the three times cross-corner bank came up for me while gambling with Jay - it was laying good, the way his table/rails were playing were good for shooting it, I shot it and drilled it in - not in 140 tries, not in 14 tries - IN ONE TRY......And also like I said, Jay can confirm it.....:cool:

- Ghost

Ghost,

Why am I not surprised. When you are "stealing", you are supposed to shoot all kinds of crazy shots so your pigeon will not pull ALL his hair out. (oops, too late for that.)

Dick <---has never had ANY opponent EVER shoot that shot on him. ( but, of course, I am a newbie at 1P)

[fred bentivegna]

Ghost,

Why am I not surprised. When you are "stealing", you are supposed to shoot all kinds of crazy shots so your pigeon will not pull ALL his hair out. (oops, too late for that.)

Dick <---has never had ANY opponent EVER shoot that shot on him. ( but, of course, I am a newbie at 1P)


I am going to attempt to show a recurring position in 1pkt and a correct solution to it (3 times cross corner). As a matter of fact I put this on Richie Richardson in a tourn in Kalamazoo, made it and ran 8 and out. (Of course I also won the match) The bank angle should appear to be running slightly long but not so much that it would advisable to be able to cross the face of the ob ball and make the bank without using eng. With the Q ball so close to the rail, using extreme english to turn the o.b. is also not advisable. Pinching the ball with rev. eng. with the Q ball that close to the rail is also not too smart. But, using just a hair of left eng., elevating and cutting across the face of the o.b. with some speed;enough to propel the ball 3 rails across and into your pocket (the q ball will walk along the edge of the long rail, safe). If the table plays low on that side the shot is even stronger. Like SJD, no one has ever made that on me, but I have made it on many.

Moon man Beard
http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AYOB4BCXu4CJcN3DFCb4EMdS4HNry3IYka4JHVt3OGvt3QYmc3lYmc4lXYH4lXxk4lahO@

[Cowboy Dennis]

I am going to attempt to show a recurring position in 1pkt and a correct solution to it (3 times cross corner). As a matter of fact I put this on Richie Richardson in a tourn in Kalamazoo, made it and ran 8 and out. (Of course I also won the match) The bank angle should appear to be running slightly long but not so much that it would advisable to be able to cross the face of the ob ball and make the bank without using eng. With the Q ball so close to the rail, using extreme english to turn the o.b. is also not advisable. Pinching the ball with rev. eng. with the Q ball that close to the rail is also not too smart. But, using just a hair of left eng., elevating and cutting across the face of the o.b. with some speed;enough to propel the ball 3 rails across and into your pocket (the q ball will walk along the edge of the long rail, safe). If the table plays low on that side the shot is even stronger. Like SJD, no one has ever made that on me, but I have made it on many.

Moon man Beard
http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AYOB4BCXu4CJcN3DFCb4EMdS4HNry3IYka4JHVt3OGvt3QYmc3lYmc4lXYH4lXxk4lahO@



Something like this Fred?

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AYOB4BCXu4CJcN3DFCb4EMdS4HNry3IYka4JHVt3OGvt3QYmc4UYOB4UcpA3Uasi4UbbJ3UbCl3lYmc4lXYH4lXxk4lahO@

[Cowboy Dennis]

Dennis,

Cheap or funsies, fire away. but for anything over $5 I am playing it pocket speed, and killing my cue ball on the top rail. (as in your 2nd diagram0 Much better success ratio of making a good hit. Easy safety if you make it, get it close and the other guy is digging for his life.

Dick <---thinks you'd play it the same way for $100. ;)


I shot this today 25 times in a row. I made it three times. Not very good odds. I need to reevaluate my shot selection, my thought process and mostly, my vision. I also need to find a stronger anti-flashback med. Dick, how does Yukon Jack work for that? You were right, I was wrong. I'm lagging it forever, unless I'm on the WEI table. Then I'm firing both barrels.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3ABtf2LCui3POqn3Qcht2gCui2gPpi3gadc3kOqn2kBoR1kbQP1kMOi2kaqA4kbAS4kPXo3uCMM@

[timdog24]

[QUOTE=Cowboy Dennis]I shot this today 25 times in a row. I made it three times. Not very good odds. I need to reevaluate my shot selection, my thought process and mostly, my vision. I also need to find a stronger anti-flashback med. Dick, how does Yukon Jack work for that? You were right, I was wrong. I'm lagging it forever, unless I'm on the WEI table. Then I'm firing both barrels.

Now think about if you lagged it to your hole 25x. Not only will you make it a bunch more, but more importantly, your opponent will have to address that 12 ball near your hole just about every time. I got the two balls I need in play with my customer on the defense. You might win 3/25 just from your opponent selling out on the next shot being nine feet away. The 3 rail style is only rewarding if you swish it.

[fred bentivegna]

Something like this Fred?

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AYOB4BCXu4CJcN3DFCb4EMdS4HNry3IYka4JHVt3OGvt3QYmc4UYOB4UcpA3Uasi4UbbJ3UbCl3lYmc4lXYH4lXxk4lahO@


Exactly. Try it. Squeezing the butt will help a little. (A minor secret leak, I do this periodically to see if anyone is paying attention. Aside from SJD, usually no one is.)

the Beard

[vapros]

I tried to post these comments earlier, but I can't find my post, so I guess something has happened to it. If it shows up later you can skip it.

Senor, having fun at my expense is okay with me, and I appreciate your input, but I feel I need to add a couple of things to my other entry. My worst case scenario of leaving a cross bank was just that - worst case. On the other hand, pocketing the bank would be the only good thing about taking the three-rail path to shape. Position to shoot the one ball is as useless as balls on a heifer if you have not made the bank. My percentage of success on the bank does not justify it. Wonder how many of our posters can come out ahead, shooting for the shape. I have to like the good lag and safe leave in the pattern shown.

As far as the thousand deaths, I done been there and done that, but I can see maybe two thousand four hundred and thirty deaths in trying this play. Being careful is one of the few things I can do. Maybe I need to think about this some more. :rolleyes:

[androd]

Position to shoot the one ball is as useless as balls on a heifer if you have not made the bank. :rolleyes:

The position on the one ball leaves your opponent the same shot you had before the bank, if you didn't like it, he probably won't either.
Rod.

[gulfportdoc]

But, using just a hair of left eng., elevating and cutting across the face of the o.b. with some speed;enough to propel the ball 3 rails across and into your pocket (the q ball will walk along the edge of the long rail, safe). If the table plays low on that side the shot is even stronger. Like SJD, no one has ever made that on me, but I have made it on many.
http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AYOB4BCXu4CJcN3DFCb4EMdS4HNry3IYka4JHVt3OGvt3QYmc3lYmc4lXYH4lXxk4lahO@
Beard, can this shot be made twice across in the same hole? Or perhaps even four times across? The reason I ask is that I saw Brumback make a similar shot against Brian Gregg at the DCC banks semi-finals. The shot blew me away, but I wasn't close enough to the table to see the exact layout. I'm sure the balls laid a little differently, but it was similar.

Doc

[Skin]

Exactly. Try it. Squeezing the butt will help a little. (A minor secret leak, I do this periodically to see if anyone is paying attention. Aside from SJD, usually no one is.)

the Beard

I have been trying this "bank that doesn't go, but does!" and keep scratching in the far corner pocket on my side. What am I doing wrong?

Skin

[One Pocket Ghost]

[QUOTE=Cowboy Dennis] This shot came up in a relatively cheap set with a friend. I needed both balls in pocket A. I shot it as shown in the first diagram. But if I am in a serious game, I shoot it as shown in the second diagram. I don't mind banking the ball and going three rails for shapes. It's a standard 3-cushion shot. The bank is a little tougher but you are rewarded if you make it. Which shot do most of you shoot from here?




Hey Dennis.........As my Wei shot shows, I just might fuggedabout the bank shots and 2-rail kick the one ball into my pocket..:eek:, ending up with perfect shape (where the arrow ends in my Wei diagram) for the 2-rail bank on the 12 ball - and I'm out.....:).....and before Dick calls me crazy again let me just say that having played 3c billiards for 38 years, and having shot this 2-rail kick a thousand times playing One Pocket, my opponent might not end up liking it if I shoot this kick shot in this spot.....:cool:

- Ghost >>>

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3ADYf2LFPo3PPPd3UDYf3UDIf3kOJc3kOad4kcxK4kEOs3kCra3kCCd3kVIl@

[Cowboy Dennis]

I have been trying this "bank that doesn't go, but does!" and keep scratching in the far corner pocket on my side. What am I doing wrong?

Skin


Skin,

Are you talking about scratching in pocket B?

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AYOB4BCXu4CJcN3DFCb4EMdS4HNry3IYka4JHVt3OGvt3QYmc2RcYp4UYOB4UcpA3Uasi4UbbJ3UbCl3lYmc4lXYH4lXxk4lahO@

[Skin]

Hey Dennis.........As my Wei shot shows, I just might fuggedabout the bank shots and 2-rail kick the one ball into my pocket..:eek:, ending up with perfect shape (where the arrow ends in my Wei diagram) for the 2-rail bank on the 12 ball - and I'm out.....:).....and before Dick calls me crazy again let me just say that having played 3c billiards for 38 years, and having shot this 2-rail kick a thousand times playing One Pocket, my opponent might not end up liking it if I shoot this kick shot in this spot.

- Ghost >>>

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3ADYf2LFPo3PPPd3UDYf3UDIf3kOJc3kOad4kcxK4kEOs3kCra3kCCd3kVIl@

Ha! The 2 rail kick on the one! That was my shot choice if I was going to go for the one. You leave no bank on the 1 if you miss close or badly. You leave him a one-railer on the 12 if you miss, though. That gave me pause.

Skin

[Cowboy Dennis]

Hey Dennis.........As my Wei shot shows, I just might fuggedabout the bank shots and 2-rail kick the one ball into my pocket..:eek:, ending up with perfect shape (where the arrow ends in my Wei diagram) for the 2-rail bank on the 12 ball - and I'm out.....:).....and before Dick calls me crazy again let me just say that having played 3c billiards for 38 years, and having shot this 2-rail kick a thousand times playing One Pocket, my opponent might not end up liking it if I shoot this kick shot in this spot.....:cool:

- Ghost >>>

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3ADYf2LFPo3PPPd3UDYf3UDIf3kOJc3kOad4kcxK4kEOs3kCra3kCCd3kVIl@[/QUOTE]

Ghost,

My original point was to ask if a person would shoot the 12 and lag it, or shoot the 12 and go three rails for positch. I wasn't really asking how to get out from there. But you know what they say about the correct shot, shoot the one that you think you can make. Not a bad shot from there Ghost. As long as you like it.

Dennis

[One Pocket Ghost]

Hey Dennis.........As my Wei shot shows, I just might fuggedabout the bank shots and 2-rail kick the one ball into my pocket..:eek:, ending up with perfect shape (where the arrow ends in my Wei diagram) for the 2-rail bank on the 12 ball - and I'm out.....:).....and before Dick calls me crazy again let me just say that having played 3c billiards for 38 years, and having shot this 2-rail kick a thousand times playing One Pocket, my opponent might not end up liking it if I shoot this kick shot in this spot.....:cool:

- Ghost >>>

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3ADYf2LFPo3PPPd3UDYf3UDIf3kOJc3kOad4kcxK4kEOs3kCra3kCCd3kVIl@

Ghost,

My original point was to ask if a person would shoot the 12 and lag it, or shoot the 12 and go three rails for positch. I wasn't really asking how to get out from there. But you know what they say about the correct shot, shoot the one that you think you can make. Not a bad shot from there Ghost. As long as you like it.

Dennis[/QUOTE]


Ok then, I didn't realize the guidelines on this post were so strict...:rolleyes: - in that case, as to your original question, in a serious game, I go along with the majority - I lag the bank on the 12, pocket speed.

- Ghost

[SJDinPHX]

Ghost,

My original point was to ask if a person would shoot the 12 and lag it, or shoot the 12 and go three rails for positch. I wasn't really asking how to get out from there. But you know what they say about the correct shot, shoot the one that you think you can make. Not a bad shot from there Ghost. As long as you like it.

Dennis


Ok then, I didn't realize the guidelines on this post were so strict...:rolleyes: - in that case, as to your original question, in a serious game, I go along with the majority - I lag the bank on the 12, pocket speed.

- Ghost[/QUOTE]



Finally, after exhausting all possible wild TV shots, warp speed banks, various trick shots, insulting my friend (Cross-SIDE Larry) and claims of amazing skill in a game that mercifully died out 75 years ago...we are finally unanimous that there is only one shot any sane 1P player would shoot. :rolleyes:

Dick

P.S. Larry was going to use the services of R&D&S Law Offices, to file a defamation of character suit, till I reminded him "R" and "D" were two of the insultor's.

[Cowboy Dennis]

P.S. Larry was going to use the services of R&D&S Law Offices, to file a defamation of character suit, till I reminded him "R" and "D" were two of the insultor's.

Just tell Larry to call 1-800- 34-ou812. Our friends over at Dewey,Cheatem,&Howe will be glad to take his case. Besides Dick, you know that R&D&S only handle one special client. Kind of like Tom Hagen and 'Don' Corleone. But we can make him an offer that he can't refuse.

[NH Steve]

Like others have mentioned, there are times when the three rail shot is better -- like when there are more balls on the table, and you need them :)

Still, the scratch is huge as you come around from that third rail :eek:

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3ADYf3BCjH3CDPf3IEFE2LFgo3PPPd3QcIs4Rcpu2gFgo2gMOd3gbbj3kPPd2kFHY1kbhW1kLxh2kbPd4kadb@

[fred bentivegna]

Beard, can this shot be made twice across in the same hole? Or perhaps even four times across? The reason I ask is that I saw Brumback make a similar shot against Brian Gregg at the DCC banks semi-finals. The shot blew me away, but I wasn't close enough to the table to see the exact layout. I'm sure the balls laid a little differently, but it was similar.

Doc

Because you are unable to cue the ball the way you would like to, because you are so close to the rail, it's very hard to get enough action on the ob ball to make it twice across. The cue ball would have to be a little further up the rail to create enough angle for the 2 railer. The 4 railer is within reason however, and could possibly go,but I cant think of any reason to shoot it that way (in 50 years I never have).

the Beard

[senor]

My percentage of success on the bank does not justify it. Wonder how many of our posters can come out ahead, shooting for the shape. I have to like the good lag and safe leave in the pattern shown.

Since I'm liable to shoot the shot both ways depending if I'm winner or loser, playing conditions, who I'm playing, etc., I'm inclined to say that both shots are good shots, with a personal preference of shooting at the shape if the object ball lay a little better for my taste.

I like the logical thought process you go through when deciding on a shot, but if you take that thought a step further, it may lead you to believe that shooting for shape is the way to go. You can guesstimate how many times you'll successfully execute the three rail shape, but can you quantify how may times you'll come out ahead lagging the ball? Three possibilities exist obviously...making the ball, hanging the ball, and leaving it near your hole, all good scenarios. But with none of these scenarios winning you the game, you're a 55-45 favorite at most IMO with two players of comparable skill. If you make the three rail shape, you're 100% to win...If you miss the three rail shape, 95% of the time you will not sell out the game, leaving two players of comparable skill close to even money at 55-45, either way.

Long story short, if you miss going for it, you'll probably be no worse off for trying.

[Artie Bodendorfer]

Since I'm liable to shoot the shot both ways depending if I'm winner or loser, playing conditions, who I'm playing, etc., I'm inclined to say that both shots are good shots, with a personal preference of shooting at the shape if the object ball lay a little better for my taste.

I like the logical thought process you go through when deciding on a shot, but if you take that thought a step further, it may lead you to believe that shooting for shape is the way to go. You can guesstimate how many times you'll successfully execute the three rail shape, but can you quantify how may times you'll come out ahead lagging the ball? Three possibilities exist obviously...making the ball, hanging the ball, and leaving it near your hole, all good scenarios. But with none of these scenarios winning you the game, you're a 55-45 favorite at most IMO with two players of comparable skill. If you make the three rail shape, you're 100% to win...If you miss the three rail shape, 95% of the time you will not sell out the game, leaving two players of comparable skill close to even money at 55-45, either way.

Long story short, if you miss going for it, you'll probably be no worse off for trying. IF you cant do something DONT DO IT TELL YOU LEARN IT>

[One Pocket Ghost]

Still, the scratch is huge as you come around from that third rail :eek:

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3ADYf3BCjH3CDPf3IEFE2LFgo3PPPd3QcIs4Rcpu2gFgo2gMOd3gbbj3kPPd2kFHY1kbhW1kLxh2kbPd4kadb@



Steve, here's some good info for you and others re. the 3-rail scratch....the scratch doesn't have to be "huge" on this type of shot - as a matter of fact, it's easy to totally eliminate the scratch......for a 3c player the adjustment is pretty automatic....

You just shoot the shot with much less english, somewhere around a half-tip, depending on the tangent-angle of the cue ball to the object ball - this will flatten out the 3-rail cue ball path for you, and you will come into the opponents long rail a diamond or two up from the bottom rail, far above the scratch....you will have to shoot the shot a little harder to make up for having less english spinning the cue ball around the table.

- Ghost

[androd]

[QUOTE=Cowboy Dennis] Which shot do most of you shoot from here?


Well, put me in with those fools in the minority camp, if there are any? If I don't feel comfortable banking the one ball and I'm a 2 ball to 1 underdog I'm going for the 4 railer (or 5 railer as Senor said ). If you lag the bank up, your opponent will move it and leave you where before, but now probably no chance to get position on the one ball.
Rod.----< always a gofer.
PS; Never or very rarely scratch here.

[Artie Bodendorfer]

[QUOTE=Cowboy Dennis] Which shot do most of you shoot from here?


Well, put me in with those fools in the minority camp, if there are any? If I don't feel comfortable banking the one ball and I'm a 2 ball to 1 underdog I'm going for the 4 railer (or 5 railer as Senor said ). If you lag the bank up, your opponent will move it and leave you where before, but now probably no chance to get position on the one ball.
Rod.----< always a gofer. I would bank the 3 ball into the one ball and if I make the one ball I will run out. Very simple nothing hard and if it doesnt go in it will hang and he will be behind the balls. I dont have to play shoot around the world when i have a simple aotomatick shot. THree ball into the one ball and 5 and out. And it lays real good that is the best shot and the only real easy and good shot. THis is not a complicated situation. BUt it is a good example.

[androd]

I would bank the 3 ball into the one ball and if I make the one ball I will run out. Very simple nothing hard and if it doesnt go in it will hang and he will be behind the balls. I dont have to play shoot around the world when i have a simple aotomatick shot. THree ball into the one ball and 5 and out. And it lays real good that is the best shot and the only real easy and good shot. THis is not a complicated situation. BUt it is a good example.

ARTIE, Where ya been ? playing ? practicing ? selling lessons ? writing a book ? are you improving ? or is there no room for improvement ? GO BACK and read the first post, then join the discussion.

[Artie Bodendorfer]

ARTIE, Where ya been ? playing ? practicing ? selling lessons ? writing a book ? are you improving ? or is there no room for improvement ? GO BACK and read the first post, then join the discussion. I have had the flue for 21 days and I still have it. And I am still taking medication for it. But If you read what I replied on I didnt reply on the beginning . I replied on what I read and IF you check that you will see were I replied. I seen the lay out and I picked oput the best shot and thats what I did. And thats all it is. And if you didnt like my response or you want to tell me what I ahould read or were to start its not going to happen. Be happy that yopu are learning. And maybe you will be a good player one day. I am not looking to squable like a little bitch. And write what you want. But dont critizice what people say. If you have something better then add to it. Thats how yopu improve. and help people who want to learn. And if you are experenced and qualified then people would be happy to her your answer.

[Artie Bodendorfer]

I have had the flue for 21 days and I still have it. And I am still taking medication for it. But If you read what I replied on I didnt reply on the beginning . I replied on what I read and IF you check that you will see were I replied. I seen the lay out and I picked oput the best shot and thats what I did. And thats all it is. And if you didnt like my response or you want to tell me what I ahould read or were to start its not going to happen. Be happy that yopu are learning. And maybe you will be a good player one day. I am not looking to squable like a little bitch. And write what you want. But dont critizice what people say. If you have something better then add to it. Thats how yopu improve. and help people who want to learn. And if you are experenced and qualified then people would be happy to her your answer. I will join the descusion when I decide. I dont need you telling me where to start. What have you done to help the one pocket players? And everyone can improve. IF YOU take the time to learn what you have to do to improve. If you are too lazzy then get a JOB.

[Artie Bodendorfer]

I will join the descusion when I decide. I dont need you telling me where to start. What have you done to help the one pocket players? And everyone can improve. IF YOU take the time to learn what you have to do to improve. If you are too lazzy then get a JOB. I gave CHICAGO MIKE A lession ask him if it helped his GAME????????

[thedirt0115]

It's easy to totally eliminate the scratch......for a 3c player the adjustment is pretty automatic.... You just shoot the shot with much less english - this will flatten out the 3-rail cue ball path for you, and you will come into the opponents long rail a diamond or two up from the bottom rail, far above the scratch....you will have to shoot the shot a little harder to make up for having less english spinning the cue ball around the table.

Thanks for this tidbit, Ghost! This made me realize that I was using way too much English on this shot.

[Cowboy Dennis]

[QUOTE=androd] I would bank the 3 ball into the one ball and if I make the one ball I will run out. Very simple nothing hard and if it doesnt go in it will hang and he will be behind the balls. I dont have to play shoot around the world when i have a simple aotomatick shot. THree ball into the one ball and 5 and out. And it lays real good that is the best shot and the only real easy and good shot. THis is not a complicated situation. BUt it is a good example.


Artie,

Is this the layout that you were referring to? Are you talking about banking the 1 into the 3?

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AYOB4BCXu4CJcN3DFCb4EMdS4HNry3IYka4JHVt3OGvt3QYmd4UYOB4Ubyw4UKid3USrV3lYmd4lWSM4lWbl4lbYR4lXMv@

[Cowboy Dennis]

ARTIE, Where ya been ? playing ? practicing ? selling lessons ? writing a book ? are you improving ? or is there no room for improvement ? GO BACK and read the first post, then join the discussion.


I think R&D&S is going to be very busy if this is any indication. I'm holding out hope that SJD doesn't have one of these WTFA moments. It might be cigarette and YJ time.

[lll]

Like others have mentioned, there are times when the three rail shot is better -- like when there are more balls on the table, and you need them :)

Still, the scratch is huge as you come around from that third rail :eek:

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3ADYf3BCjH3CDPf3IEFE2LFgo3PPPd3QcIs4Rcpu2gFgo2gMOd3gbbj3kPPd2kFHY1kbhW1kLxh2kbPd4kadb@
dennis i think this is the layout artie is referring to.we will know when artie replies. ps artie chicken soup helps the flu.

[Cowboy Dennis]

dennis i think this is the layout artie is referring to.we will know when artie replies. ps artie chicken soup helps the flu.


lll,

I think you are correct. I passed right over that one. This thread has really gotten off course. Oh well, it's not the first time.

Dennis

[SJDinPHX]

After a severe dressing down from the master, I can hardly wait for Rodney's response. Is this AZBish, or what ?

Dick <--- goes to the races only to see the wrecks. :eek:

[Artie Bodendorfer]

lll,

I think you are correct. I passed right over that one. This thread has really gotten off course. Oh well, it's not the first time.

Dennis Chicken soup is good but it wont help youre pool game or will it.

[Artie Bodendorfer]

lll,

I think you are correct. I passed right over that one. This thread has really gotten off course. Oh well, it's not the first time.

Dennis The lay out is the one I posted under.

[One Pocket Ghost]

After a severe dressing down from the master, I can hardly wait for Rodney's response. Is this AZBish, or what ?

Dick


Not really, only because there is no parallel/equivalent to the "master" over at az..... ;)

- Ghost

[androd]

[QUOTE=Artie Bodendorfer]I will join the descusion when I decide. I dont need you telling me where to start.

Didn't mean to get your dander up. Many of us have voiced our opinions about the shot in question. I'm sure everyone is waiting for you to tell us the only correct shot. Please help us learn.

[lfigueroa]

Exactly. Try it. Squeezing the butt will help a little. (A minor secret leak, I do this periodically to see if anyone is paying attention. Aside from SJD, usually no one is.)

the Beard


What, exactly, is "squeezing the butt" a little, suppose to accomplish?

Lou Figueroa

[lfigueroa]

[QUOTE=androd] I would bank the 3 ball into the one ball and if I make the one ball I will run out. Very simple nothing hard and if it doesnt go in it will hang and he will be behind the balls. I dont have to play shoot around the world when i have a simple aotomatick shot. THree ball into the one ball and 5 and out. And it lays real good that is the best shot and the only real easy and good shot. THis is not a complicated situation. BUt it is a good example.


Are you not a favorite to sellout a bank on this, if the one doesn't go?

Here, let me rephrase that: are you not a favorite to sellout an *easy* bank, if the one doesn't go?

Lou Figueroa

[SJDinPHX]

This thread has evolved from C.D.s orig. post, into a variety of scenarios.
I would suggest we stay on topic, or start a new thread with the other WEI layouts. (there are 3 or 4 different layouts now)
That will avoid delicate feelings being crushed, cruel things being said, and hearts being broken.

Dick <--is in awe of Androd's composure. I know the pain he is enduring.
I myself have been thoughtlesslly cast aside before, by an unkind word from someone I idolized.

[fred bentivegna]

What, exactly, is "squeezing the butt" a little, suppose to accomplish?

Lou Figueroa


Surprise, surprise, somebody was paying attention. Squeezing the butt firmly during the delivery will put maximum collision induced throw on the ob ball -- which is what you need because you cant use much helping eng. because you are jacked up and very close to the cushion. There are other uses for the squeeze like slowing down the cue ball and speeding up the ob ball.

the Beard

Regarding Arties solution to my diagram, (he wants to bank the one into the three ball) What happened is i put up that diagram carelessly. All I wanted to show was the 3 railer not what might the best shot for that diagram position be. My diagram should have shown that banking the ball into the stack was not available (lets just say the rack would be up higher and you couldnt bank at it)

Also re the original shot of 3,4 or 5 railing the cue ball for position, one more secret leak, and I am not going to explain it any further, go practice and find out for yourself: if you want the ob ball to "break" to the pocket on the initial straight back using the reverse eng needed to carry the cue ball around the table, contrary to what most players think, the more reverse you use the more the ob ball will break rather than stiff off of the rail and run short. This is one of the great secrets of bank pool, maximum rev will give you a completely opposite effect of what you have come to expect. The Ghost's solution of flattening the angle by using less eng will result in having a very difficult time getting the ob ball to "break" to the pocket. Try what I said and dont tell the eggs on AZ, I'll be watching.

[One Pocket Ghost]

I myself have been thoughtlesslly cast aside before by an unkind word from someone I idolized.


I apologize for having said that unkind word.


- Ghost

[blackeee]

I shot this today 25 times in a row. I made it three times. Not very good odds. I need to reevaluate my shot selection, my thought process and mostly, my vision. I also need to find a stronger anti-flashback med. Dick, how does Yukon Jack work for that? You were right, I was wrong. I'm lagging it forever, unless I'm on the WEI table. Then I'm firing both barrels.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3ABtf2LCui3POqn3Qcht2gCui2gPpi3gadc3kOqn2kBoR1kbQP1kMOi2kaqA4kbAS4kPXo3uCMM@

So did I Dennis and so I did.

[blackeee]

Exactly. Try it. Squeezing the butt will help a little. (A minor secret leak, I do this periodically to see if anyone is paying attention. Aside from SJD, usually no one is.)

the Beard

I for one,beg to differ. {Re: paying attention}

[Artie Bodendorfer]

So did I Dennis and so I did. If I need one ball I kick at the one ball and even if I need two balls I will still kick at the one ball. And Needing one ball kicking at the one ball is the only shot.

[Fatboy]

If I need one ball I kick at the one ball and even if I need two balls I will still kick at the one ball. And Needing one ball kicking at the one ball is the only shot.

just dont leave "The Pilot" a return bank on that one ball ;) .

[lfigueroa]

Surprise, surprise, somebody was paying attention. Squeezing the butt firmly during the delivery will put maximum collision induced throw on the ob ball -- which is what you need because you cant use much helping eng. because you are jacked up and very close to the cushion. There are other uses for the squeeze like slowing down the cue ball and speeding up the ob ball.

the Beard

Regarding Arties solution to my diagram, (he wants to bank the one into the three ball) What happened is i put up that diagram carelessly. All I wanted to show was the 3 railer not what might the best shot for that diagram position be. My diagram should have shown that banking the ball into the stack was not available (lets just say the rack would be up higher and you couldnt bank at it)

Also re the original shot of 3,4 or 5 railing the cue ball for position, one more secret leak, and I am not going to explain it any further, go practice and find out for yourself: if you want the ob ball to "break" to the pocket on the initial straight back using the reverse eng needed to carry the cue ball around the table, contrary to what most players think, the more reverse you use the more the ob ball will break rather than stiff off of the rail and run short. This is one of the great secrets of bank pool, maximum rev will give you a completely opposite effect of what you have come to expect. The Ghost's solution of flattening the angle by using less eng will result in having a very difficult time getting the ob ball to "break" to the pocket. Try what I said and dont tell the eggs on AZ, I'll be watching.


Freddy, first let me say that I really appreciate you sharing some of the inside knowledge here that you do. And I know that youze bank guys have these secret society wrist and grip techniques, that you've been using, successfully, for eons (I seem to recall reading an article describing how Glenn Rodgers, aka Piggy Banks, uses certain wrist/grip techniques on certain shots.

However, the science guys can demonstrate -- with huge steaming piles of equations (and some pretty good arguments) -- that there is no way on God's good green Simonis covered earth that what you're doing with your grip is going to influence anything like CIT. What they would probably tell you (I'm not a science guy) is that what you're actually doing is changing the speed, or angle of delivery, and/or changing where your cue tip is hitting the CB, and that you are misinterpreting the end result.

I also suspect they might have a problem with the max reverse theory. They might tell you something like what is actually happening is that you're just getting more squirt, so that is changing your contact point on the OB, giving the impression that the OB is breaking more, when it is actually the CB that is breaking more.

Anyway, it's a good discussion.

Lou Figueroa

[gulfportdoc]

However, the science guys can demonstrate -- with huge steaming piles of equations (and some pretty good arguments) -- that there is no way on God's good green Simonis covered earth that what you're doing with your grip is going to influence anything like CIT. What they would probably tell you (I'm not a science guy) is that what you're actually doing is changing the speed, or angle of delivery, and/or changing where your cue tip is hitting the CB, and that you are misinterpreting the end result.

I also suspect they might have a problem with the max reverse theory. They might tell you something like what is actually happening is that you're just getting more squirt, so that is changing your contact point on the OB, giving the impression that the OB is breaking more, when it is actually the CB that is breaking more.
I don't think the grip could have any influence on what an object ball does, except to the extent that it may be an aid peculiar to an individual shooter which might allow him to hit the cueball differently.

However I'm not so sure about the maximum inside english affecting the object ball break example. Beard may have something there. After all, he's an acknowledged expert. I'll have to get to the table to experiment with that.

What gives me pause to reflect is the shot we discussed from awhile back where there was a long straight back close to the rail on the same side; and then the similar shot on the short rail. I was surprised to see that reverse english only worked to a point. A center ball worked better. And evidently extreme outside caused the opposite effect from what you'd expect on the OB.

Doc

[androd]

I also suspect they might have a problem with the max reverse theory. They might tell you something like what is actually happening is that you're just getting more squirt, so that is changing your contact point on the OB, giving the impression that the OB is breaking more, when it is actually the CB that is breaking more.

Anyway, it's a good discussion.

Lou Figueroa

When you cut the OB more than reverse english will hold the opposite happens.Two examples below.http://CueTable.com/P/?@1Aacb1PTpF1Uacb1UcHP3UOiL1kTpF1kXol1kcID1kVMg1uBOP@2AXAB2PYEG2UXAB2UUfp4UUld2kYEG2kXXn2kbjB2kWbl1kEsW2uBOS@

[androd]

I don't think the grip could have any influence on what an object ball does, except to the extent that it may be an aid peculiar to an individual shooter which might allow him to hit the cueball differently.


Doc

Doc; When I was younger I played with a tight grip. It certainly makes the OB's fight the pockets, it seems to put overspin on them, also it makes you accidently stiff banks. I had an accident and lost muscle memory in my grip arm, so while doing pool as therapy, I relearned with a loose grip. My pool went up a few notches and I realized how much of a disadvantage holding the grip tight had been.
Rod.

[fred bentivegna]

Freddy, first let me say that I really appreciate you sharing some of the inside knowledge here that you do. And I know that youze bank guys have these secret society wrist and grip techniques, that you've been using, successfully, for eons (I seem to recall reading an article describing how Glenn Rodgers, aka Piggy Banks, uses certain wrist/grip techniques on certain shots.

However, the science guys can demonstrate -- with huge steaming piles of equations (and some pretty good arguments) -- that there is no way on God's good green Simonis covered earth that what you're doing with your grip is going to influence anything like CIT. What they would probably tell you (I'm not a science guy) is that what you're actually doing is changing the speed, or angle of delivery, and/or changing where your cue tip is hitting the CB, and that you are misinterpreting the end result.

I also suspect they might have a problem with the max reverse theory. They might tell you something like what is actually happening is that you're just getting more squirt, so that is changing your contact point on the OB, giving the impression that the OB is breaking more, when it is actually the CB that is breaking more.

Anyway, it's a good discussion.

Lou Figueroa

This is why I am hesitant to leak this stuff that I would traded my kid sisters for when I was coming up. Ask any of those "scientists" if they would take 10 to 8. Also if there is any trick bank they would like to shoot shot for shot with me, I squeeze and they dont squeeze. I turn and they dont turn. Those guys avoid me, insofar as pool discussions, like I had the plague. When they see me they run away. It's like global warming, they aint looking for any other opinions. I aint either. I once got into a conversation with Kohler, the guy who wrote a terrific book, The Science of Pocket Billiards. I lost him discussing his own book. It was embarassing. I thought I had finally found someone I could back and forth with, not so.
As far as more squirt ocurring when you use extreme eng., dont you think someone like me who has been playing 50 years, and has been burdened with a 150 IQ would have already considered that? Thats why I hesitate to drizzle this stuff out. If you think Artie is sensitive when it comes to somebody questioning his moves, he has nothing on me. I will brook no ressistance to my advice. I will explain, maybe, but I will never defend.
When I put something out I aint looking for consensus approval. I just hope that I could help somebody who is looking for help.
All I have going for me is results. I know, and have shot and made, more trick stroke banks (for the money) than any living or dead human, including Bugs. Bugs would not shoot proposition banks with me -- anymore. He did try a few times.

Ask the "scientist's," if it's so easy, and nothing effects the object ball other than a straight thru stroke, why you cant also draw the ball 4 and 5 rails like Corey Deuel. Hit it low, hard, and follow thru, is all there is to it, right? Grip and bridge length doesnt mean anything? Wimpy had 40 different grips and 2 zillion bridge lengths.

the Beard

I said earlier, dont argue, just go to a pool table and try it my way and then Dr. Daves and Robt Byrnes way.

[lfigueroa]

This is why I am hesitant to leak this stuff that I would traded my kid sisters for when I was coming up. Ask any of those "scientists" if they would take 10 to 8. Also if there is any trick bank they would like to shoot shot for shot with me, I squeeze and they dont squeeze. I turn and they dont turn. Those guys avoid me, insofar as pool discussions, like I had the plague. When they see me they run away. It's like global warming, they aint looking for any other opinions. I aint either. I once got into a conversation with Kohler, the guy who wrote a terrific book, The Science of Pocket Billiards. I lost him discussing his own book. It was embarassing. I thought I had finally found someone I could back and forth with, not so.
As far as more squirt ocurring when you use extreme eng., dont you think someone like me who has been playing 50 years, and has been burdened with a 150 IQ would have already considered that? Thats why I hesitate to drizzle this stuff out. If you think Artie is sensitive when it comes to somebody questioning his moves, he has nothing on me. I will brook no ressistance to my advice. I will explain, maybe, but I will never defend.
When I put something out I aint looking for consensus approval. I just hope that I could help somebody who is looking for help.
All I have going for me is results. I know, and have shot and made, more trick stroke banks (for the money) than any living or dead human, including Bugs. Bugs would not shoot proposition banks with me -- anymore. He did try a few times.

Ask the "scientist's," if it's so easy, and nothing effects the object ball other than a straight thru stroke, why you cant also draw the ball 4 and 5 rails like Corey Deuel. Hit it low, hard, and follow thru, is all there is to it, right? Grip and bridge length doesnt mean anything? Wimpy had 40 different grips and 2 zillion bridge lengths.

the Beard

I said earlier, dont argue, just go to a pool table and try it my way and then Dr. Daves and Robt Byrnes way.


Freddy, clearly it's not a case of giving the science guys 10-8. That doesn't prove anything. And the fact that your technique works for you also doesn't prove anything about CIT or squirt. All it means is that you believe it works and what you're doing is producing good results for you. But not necessarily via the physics you think are at work.

For years people thought offering up virgins for sacrifice would keep the sun coming up every morning. And it seemed to work :-)

Lou Figueroa
but I will take you up
on your suggestion
and ask the science guys :-)

[fred bentivegna]

Freddy, clearly it's not a case of giving the science guys 10-8. That doesn't prove anything. And the fact that your technique works for you also doesn't prove anything about CIT or squirt. All it means is that you believe it works and what you're doing is producing good results for you. But not necessarily via the physics you think are at work.

For years people thought offering up virgins for sacrifice would keep the sun coming up every morning. And it seemed to work :-)

Lou Figueroa
but I will take you up
on your suggestion
and ask the science guys :-)


Lou, you putting my ideas up on AZ was a terrible breach of trust. I at no time asked you to ask the science guys anything except why you cant draw the ball 4 rails like Corey. I never asked you to get confirmation of my ideas. Also, ask them for yourself, not for me. I said to go to a pool table and try what I suggested. I also didnt quote physics of any kind "that I thought was at work," to confirm my ideas. I also said I would maybe explain, but never defend. You put my sh*t out on the street for some of those AZ knockers to take shots at me. I'm sure the fact that you deigned to not mention me by name is going to keep everybody from knowing it's me. I long ago gave up on expounding ideas on AZ due to the plethora of knockers.

Also, the information, whether you think so or not, was precious to me and it was to be my gift for use by ONEPOCKET.ORG people only! You giving that to AZ for nothing should have been my choice not yours. I am a loyal person by nature, I never respond to any 1pocket related threads on AZ. This forum I thought was our private niche reserved for really serious players.

To keep from getting insanely angry, I intend to never, never, open up those two threads you started on AZ. I know if I do, some of the postee's coarse, insulting remarks will for sure rev me up.

The only upside I can think of, is that the negative remarks will be so prevalent on AZ, that the initial value of the ideas will go unheeded in the storm. Only a few players will be smart enough to take advantage, they will use the ideas but wisely, wont talk about them.

Now everybody should know why I quit releasing anything on AZ, and now everybody should know why I will keep my secrets to myself on 1pkt.org also. I promise to sacrifice no more virgins. Anybody wanting something from me can ring in at $150 an hour.

the Beard

[androd]

Exactly. Try it. Squeezing the butt will help a little. (A minor secret leak, I do this periodically to see if anyone is paying attention. Aside from SJD, usually no one is.)

the Beard

I tried this today, and the tighter grip helped the spin take on the 2nd. rail. thanks Fred.
Rod.

[lll]

freddy your hair is standing on end and you are p***sed off about someone questioning your authority. F***ck them. let the scientists be and remember there are alot of one pocket players that want to learn and they will decide if your techniques help them i have learned alot from your dvds. dont go into a cave because of a few cynics. they are not going to listen to your secrets anyway. share them to the one with open ears looking to try to see if it helps them. bank on brother.

[gulfportdoc]

I experimented a little today with the reverse english proposition. I couldn't get the bank to go wide by hitting it with maximum inside english. In fact a few times it seemed to shorten the angle. I was using cueball "A" shooting at the 5 ball, like so:

http://CueTable.com/P/?@1EAcT2LFPU3QCXV3ROyo@
Then when I got home and looked at the original position, the layout was more like cueball "B" shooting at the 12 ball. So I was not using a wide enough cut angle to tryout the proposition. I'll try that next time. Also I'll have to shorten the distance between the CB and OB so as to lessen the possibility of bad aim or squirt.

I'm also eager to try Rod's shot. The explanation --that the widening of the angle seems to take effect right at the point where the reverse english won't change the path of the OB-- seems worth pursuing.

Doc
is eager to learn the secret

[One Pocket Ghost]

Thanks for this tidbit, Ghost! This made me realize that I was using way too much English on this shot.


dirt.......thanks for the thanks, glad to be of service.....it's nice to see an appreciative response once in awhile.

- Ghost

[lfigueroa]

Lou, you putting my ideas up on AZ was a terrible breach of trust. I at no time asked you to ask the science guys anything except why you cant draw the ball 4 rails like Corey. I never asked you to get confirmation of my ideas. Also, ask them for yourself, not for me. I said to go to a pool table and try what I suggested. I also didnt quote physics of any kind "that I thought was at work," to confirm my ideas. I also said I would maybe explain, but never defend. You put my sh*t out on the street for some of those AZ knockers to take shots at me. I'm sure the fact that you deigned to not mention me by name is going to keep everybody from knowing it's me. I long ago gave up on expounding ideas on AZ due to the plethora of knockers.

Also, the information, whether you think so or not, was precious to me and it was to be my gift for use by ONEPOCKET.ORG people only! You giving that to AZ for nothing should have been my choice not yours. I am a loyal person by nature, I never respond to any 1pocket related threads on AZ. This forum I thought was our private niche reserved for really serious players.

To keep from getting insanely angry, I intend to never, never, open up those two threads you started on AZ. I know if I do, some of the postee's coarse, insulting remarks will for sure rev me up.

The only upside I can think of, is that the negative remarks will be so prevalent on AZ, that the initial value of the ideas will go unheeded in the storm. Only a few players will be smart enough to take advantage, they will use the ideas but wisely, wont talk about them.

Now everybody should know why I quit releasing anything on AZ, and now everybody should know why I will keep my secrets to myself on 1pkt.org also. I promise to sacrifice no more virgins. Anybody wanting something from me can ring in at $150 an hour.

the Beard


ah, Freddy, don't get your panties in such a bunch -- you just might learn something ;-)

First off, you said, go ahead and ask the science guys, *and then* used the example of the CD draw. Your claim is pure revisionism.

Second, I did ask them for myself. I already know what you think.

Third, BUY A VOWEL -- YOU POSTED YOUR STATEMENTS ON THE *INTERNET*. Guess what?! *Anyone* can and does read stuff here, even if they don't post. Most of the guys I know on AZ lurk here, but you and Artie have them all scared off from posting here. That's one of the big reasons there are about five posts a day here. (AND, if you're so down on AZ, maybe you shouldn't ask them to buy your shirts :-)

Fourth, I don't need your permission to do anything.

Fifth -- and this is the biggie -- if we're all here to learn, then questioning stuff (especially stuff, which at the minimum, sounds totally bogus) is the purest form of attempting to gain knowledge.

Your techniques work for you and perhaps others. I don't question that.

What I do question are the actual mechanisms that are producing the results. The physics. I don't think you understand what's really going on. I know I don't, but I am willing to learn. All you know right now is that if you squeeze the cue tighter, you make more banks. Mazeltov!

But why, when it defies high school physics? That's what I'd like to know.

Lastly, in spite of you painting all of AZ with the same brush (knockers), there are at least a half a dozen guys smart enough (with enough credentials in science to make a very nice bowl of alphabet soup) to explain -- with all the evidence, graphs, equations, slow-mo high speed photography you might ever want or need -- what is really going on with this. Or, at least, they can confirm this doesn't work for the reasons you think it works. (Yes, you can give them all 10-8, probably more)

Sooooo, just keep an open mind, instead of pounding your chest. We all might come out ahead.

Lou Figueroa

[lfigueroa]

freddy your hair is standing on end and you are p***sed off about someone questioning your authority. F***ck them. let the scientists be and remember there are alot of one pocket players that want to learn and they will decide if your techniques help them i have learned alot from your dvds. dont go into a cave because of a few cynics. they are not going to listen to your secrets anyway. share them to the one with open ears looking to try to see if it helps them. bank on brother.


Pass the virgin. Please.

Lou Figueroa

[Skin]

Lou, I rather suspect you wouldn't recognize valid science if it walked up to you and ran eight-and-out on the break. Evidence enough for this is your spelling of Occam's (as in Occam's Razor), "Okam's". Sheesh.

http://jbstein.com/lou.htm

At any rate, these "science" guys mostly are engineering guys and what they put out is not science as they will usually readily admit when pressed on the issue. Their opinions may be entertaining, but they certainly are nothing to toss a virgin into a volcano over, as you seem far too eager to do, IMHO.

Skin <-- is NOT implying that Freddy is a virgin, nor even that he could play one on TV :eek:

[lfigueroa]

Lou, I rather suspect you wouldn't recognize valid science if it walked up to you and ran eight-and-out on the break. Evidence enough for this is your spelling of Occam's (as in Occam's Razor), "Okam's". Sheesh.

http://jbstein.com/lou.htm

At any rate, these "science" guys mostly are engineering guys and what they put out is not science as they will usually readily admit when pressed on the issue. Their opinions may be entertaining, but they certainly are nothing to toss a virgin into a volcano over, as you seem far too eager to do, IMHO.

Skin <-- is NOT implying that Freddy is a virgin, nor even that he could play one on TV :eek:


You're not the same guy that got all excited when I misspelled ferrule once, are you?

Lou Figueroa
probably misspelled
Mazeltov too

[Skin]

You're not the same guy that got all excited when I misspelled ferrule once, are you?

Lou Figueroa
probably misspelled
Mazeltov too

Not me, Lou. I think I am pretty good at detecting when a word is misspelled through error v. ignorance. Stiff upper lip, though. We all are ignorant about something.


Skin <--doesn't know what "Mazeltov" means, but if it is about doing better things with virgins than tossing them in volcanoes, is all in favor it

[lfigueroa]

Not me, Lou. I think I am pretty good at detecting when a word is misspelled through error v. ignorance.


wow. You can probably bend spoons with your mind too :-)

Lou Figueroa

[Skin]

wow. You can probably bend spoons with your mind too :-)

Lou Figueroa

You're too easy, Lou. Stick to something you're good at. Thinking is not it. :)

Skin <--can bend spoons with the best of them...loading the dishwasher

[SJDinPHX]

wow. You can probably bend spoons with your mind too :-)

Lou Figueroa

Now children, be nice.

Having had some minor dischords with the very eloquent Mr. Figueroa in the past, I will say this.

He took the time to put into words, (maybe too many) my exact feelings on all the CIT,BHE,CTE and all the other alphabet crap the "science guy's" have thrown into our game.
Their geometric, precise engineering principles have bounced off these old ears like "collision induced" crap.

Lou's last paragraph (in his little tirade Skin linked to) has accurately summed up my opinion of ALL the aiming system "guru's", and I tell them that every chance I get.

Has anyone ever bothered to read one of those "aiming system" threads on AZB ?
They all run 5-600 posts, and they all wind up in a flame war, with vicious name calling, and insults hurled back and forth for days on end. School kids arguing make much more sense, and, I might add are more open-minded.

Most of them are very well educated, but ALL of them are frustrated in that they cannot agree on how to apply exact numerical equations to pool.
Their frustration is often furthered by the fact that most of them cannot make three balls in rotation.

So I say, right on Lou. You have my support to help stifle those elitist ASS people (Aiming System Supporters) and lets keep common sense logic in the our exchanges here at 1P.org.

Dick <---would prefer being 'water-boarded' to debating an ASS guy.

[One Pocket Ghost]

Dick <---would prefer being 'water-boarded' to debating an ASS guy.



Hey!.........I resent that statement - I happen to BE an ASS guy, and a 'RACK' guy too!......:D

- Ghost <<<--------- Remembering those thong bikinis on the L.A. beaches

[Skin]

Now children, be nice.

Having had some minor dischords with the very eloquent Mr. Figueroa in the past, I will say this.

He took the time to put into words, (maybe too many) my exact feelings on all the CIT,BHE,CTE and all the other alphabet crap the "science guy's" have thrown into our game.
Their geometric, precise engineering principles have bounced off these old ears like "collision induced" crap.

Lou's last paragraph (in his little tirade Skin linked to) has accurately summed up my opinion of ALL the aiming system "guru's", and I tell them that every chance I get.

Has anyone ever bothered to read one of those "aiming system" threads on AZB ?
They all run 5-600 posts, and they all wind up in a flame war, with vicious name calling, and insults hurled back and forth for days on end. School kids arguing make much more sense, and, I might add are more open-minded.
Most of them are very well educated, but ALL of them are frustrated in that they cannot agree on how to apply exact numerical equations to pool.
Their frustration is often furthered by the fact that most of them cannot make three balls in rotation.

So I say, right on Lou. You have my support to help stifle those elitist ASS people (Aiming System Supporters) and lets keep common sense logic in the our exchanges here at 1P.org.

Dick <---would prefer being 'water-boarded' to debating an ASS guy.

Those guys don't do science on pool. In my opinion, it is not worth treating what they say as if they do. And it's certainly not worth bludgeoning another pool player over the head with it, like gets done a lot.

It's only WEI science, at best. :eek: :eek: :eek:

Skin

[Cowboy Dennis]

It's only WEI science, at best. :eek: :eek: :eek:

Skin


Hey, now you're knocking my BEST game!!!!!!!! What's going on here?

[SJDinPHX]

Those guys don't do science on pool. In my opinion, it is not worth treating what they say as if they do. And it's certainly not worth bludgeoning another pool player over the head with it, like gets done a lot.

It's only WEI science, at best. :eek: :eek: :eek:

Skin

Skin,

You are hereby sentenced to read through an entire 500 post aiming thread and then update your findings.

In the "Information age" every one seems to want to put a name on everything. All these new acronyms just try to put a label on basic english, spin, "squirt and throw". Something good pool players have understood all along.
They (the ASS guy's) consider us ignorant heathens if we do not subscribe to their theories, and their convoluted way of explaining them.

WEIn pocket can be a fun exchange of ideas. ( a tad better than watching paint dry) :eek:

Aiming system threads are a good way for a beginner to be completely "turned off" the game forever. (unless he or she has a Phd in Engineering or Physics) JMHO

Dick

[Cowboy Dennis]

[QUOTE=SJDinPHX]



He took the time to put into words, (maybe too many) my exact feelings on all the CIT,BHE,CTE and all the other alphabet crap the "science guy's" have thrown into our game.



QUOTE]


Well as long as this thread has taken this direction, let me tell you what I think. The only thing I know for sure is this: The object ball gets it's information from the cueball. The object ball does not do anything that the cueball doesn't tell it to do. The object ball does not know how tight your grip is except by how the cueball tells it to react differently now. The object ball does not know how long your follow through is except by how the cueball tells it to react.

The object ball does not know how you stand, stroke, grip or anything else, except through the cueball translating this information from you to it.
Then it reacts how it is told to react, by the cueball, which you have influenced. Every adjustment that we make changes the way the cueball reacts, and that changes how the object ball reacts.

Of course I leave myself open to mysteries being revealed to me in dreams by clear & roaring voices from above (Fats), or by people who know a lot more than I do. This way I'm covered both ways. I'm always open to learning more.

[Skin]

Skin,

You are hereby sentenced to read through an entire 500 post aiming thread and then update your findings.

In the "Information age" every one seems to want to put a name on everything. All these new acronyms just try to put a label on basic english, spin, "squirt and throw". Something good pool players have understood all along.
They (the ASS guy's) consider us ignorant heathens if we do not subscribe to their theories, and their convoluted way of explaining them.

WEIn pocket can be a fun exchange of ideas. ( a tad better than watching paint dry) :eek:

Aiming system threads are a good way for a beginner to be completely turned off the game forever. (unless he or she has a Phd in Engineering or Physics) JMHO

Dick

Dick, I don't mind be considered a heathen on this. After all, the heathens had all the virgins, didn't they? Anyway, I have been down the aiming system thread road ONCE, and shall ne'er return. Life is too short.

But, I do think that the antidote for this esoteric stuff ruining the interest in a beginner is just to teach him how to get laid by playing pool. :) That would do it for me as a young fella!

Skin

[Skin]

Hey, now you're knocking my BEST game!!!!!!!! What's going on here?

Dennis, it has been getting weirder and weirder around here ever since Dick quit smoking. No telling what's going to happen next!

Skin

[androd]

QUOTE] Cowboy Dennis.


Well as long as this thread has taken this direction, let me tell you what I think. The only thing I know for sure is this: The object ball gets it's information from the cueball. The object ball does not do anything that the cueball doesn't tell it to do. The object ball does not know how tight your grip is except by how the cueball tells it to react differently now. The object ball does not know how long your follow through is except by how the cueball tells it to react.

The object ball does not know how you stand, stroke, grip or anything else, except through the cueball translating this information from you to it.
Then it reacts how it is told to react, by the cueball, which you have influenced. Every adjustment that we make changes the way the cueball reacts, and that changes how the object ball reacts.

Of course I leave myself open to mysteries being revealed to me in dreams by clear & roaring voices from above (Fats), or by people who know a lot more than I do. This way I'm covered both ways. I'm always open to learning more.[/QUOTE]


Well said, a good pool player when complimented on his cue ball control, said" It should do what I want I raised it from a marble". As to learning more, pool players=yes----- psudo propellor heads=not usually, they spent to much time in school.
Rod.-------< had a misspent youth.

[Cowboy Dennis]

Dennis, it has been getting weirder and weirder around here ever since Dick quit smoking. No telling what's going to happen next!

Skin


Skin,

Maybe he'll start two or three threads and then keep quoting his own posts for a few weeks. Then we'll know that he's lost it. Or he may start requesting his Personal Pool Posse to remit dues and strongarm dissenters.

[Cowboy Dennis]

[.[/QUOTE]


Well said, a good pool player when complimented on his cue ball control, said" It should do what I want I raised it from a marble".
Rod.-------< had a misspent youth.[/QUOTE]


I'm glad I swallowed my wake up coffee before I read this Rod. A marble? Never heard that in my life.

[SJDinPHX]

Skin,

Maybe he'll start two or three threads and then keep quoting his own posts for a few weeks. Then we'll know that he's lost it. Or he may start requesting his Personal Pool Posse to remit dues and strongarm dissenters.

If I ever quote my own threads, I'll know its time to hang it up.

[Skin]

Skin,

Maybe he'll start two or three threads and then keep quoting his own posts for a few weeks. Then we'll know that he's lost it. Or he may start requesting his Personal Pool Posse to remit dues and strongarm dissenters.

Want to know what the weirdest part is, Dennis? Dick actually seems to be acting just fine. It's everybody else who seems to have gone off-axis. :)


Skin

[SJDinPHX]

If I ever quote my own threads, I'll know its time to hang it up.

You know I've just been thinking. If I ever start quoting my own threads, I'll know its time to hang it up.

Dick <--- this no smoking thing is playin hell with my short term memory.

[androd]

You know I've just been thinking. If I ever start quoting my own threads, I'll know its time to hang it up.

Dick <--- this no smoking thing is playin hell with my sort term memory.

OMG ! This is too goldurn funny !
Rod-------< had a few celebatory brews ( drew out on the nuts )but am LMAO.

[Cowboy Dennis]

You know I've just been thinking. If I ever start quoting my own threads, I'll know its time to hang it up.

Dick <--- this no smoking thing is playin hell with my sort term memory.


It's time for R&D&S and maybe even his Personal Pool Posse to intervene. But not because he's quoting his own posts, but because he spelled a word wrong and did not correct it. That's not like him.

[fred bentivegna]

ah, Freddy, don't get your panties in such a bunch -- you just might learn something ;-)

First off, you said, go ahead and ask the science guys, *and then* used the example of the CD draw. Your claim is pure revisionism.

Beard: I said to ask the science guys about the whys of the draw power of Corey or Larry Nevel -- not my theories. Presenting my theories for dissection on another forum, common professional courtesy should have dictated my thoughts on that should have been considered.

Second, I did ask them for myself. I already know what you think.

Beard:When you fronted me off in that thread you werent asking for yourself. Everybody knows it was me. It probably seemed to many that you were speaking on my behalf.


Third, BUY A VOWEL -- YOU POSTED YOUR STATEMENTS ON THE *INTERNET*. Guess what?! *Anyone* can and does read stuff here, even if they don't post.

Beard:Then let them read it on the forum that I posted it on.

Most of the guys I know on AZ lurk here, but you and Artie have them all scared off from posting here. That's one of the big reasons there are about five posts a day here.

Beard:There might be a few dissenting opinions re how many people I scare off here.


AND, if you're so down on AZ... maybe you shouldn't ask them to buy your shirts.

Beard:Dont speak for me and paint me as an AZ hater. There are plenty of good guys on AZ and that's why I post on there daily. However, there is no doubt in anyone's mind, proven by how few real professionals ever post there, that there is contingent of bad-mouthed knockers that take pleasure in p*ssing on all good player's posts.

...maybe you shouldn't ask them to buy your shirts.

Beard:Some of that knocking has apparently rubbed off on you.

Fourth, I don't need your permission to do anything.

Beard:No, of course not, you only need the arrogance that that last statement reflects. Arrogance and disrespect.

Fifth -- and this is the biggie -- if we're all here to learn, then questioning stuff (especially stuff, which at the minimum, sounds totally bogus) is the purest form of attempting to gain knowledge.

Beard:Since I am regarded world-wide as the foremost authority on bank pool on this earth-- That's right pal, do you have another candidate? -- a really smart person would reason that I probably wouldnt offer anything that could be determined to be "minimumly, totally bogus," just because it dont make sense to you.

Your techniques work for you and perhaps others. I don't question that.
What I do question are the actual mechanisms that are producing the results. The physics.

Beard:Old people should remember that "taking a physic" used to be a concoction that helped you to take a dump when you were constipated.

I don't think you understand what's really going on.

Beard:There's that arrogance and disrepect again.

I know I don't, but I am willing to learn. All you know right now is that if you squeeze the cue tighter, you make more banks. Mazeltov!
But why, when it defies high school physics? That's what I'd like to know.

Beard:Good luck because my course has ended.

Lastly, in spite of you painting all of AZ with the same brush (knockers)...

Beard:Not true, I explained in an above statement.

there are at least a half a dozen guys smart enough (with enough credentials in science to make a very nice bowl of alphabet soup) to explain -- with all the evidence, graphs, equations, slow-mo high speed photography you might ever want or need -- what is really going on with this. Or, at least, they can confirm this doesn't work for the reasons you think it works. (Yes, you can give them all 10-8, probably more)
Sooooo, just keep an open mind, instead of pounding your chest. We all might come out ahead.

Beard:Again I say, have someone explain to me why I cant draw the ball 4 rails, even tho I hit the cue ball low and hard, (and maybe even not squeeze the butt).


Lou Figueroa


the Beard

Lastly, for SJD, what aiming system post on this thread are you talking about? I'm feeling very defensive, are you talking to me?

[demonrho]

...This forum I thought was our private niche reserved for really serious players...The only upside I can think of, is that the negative remarks will be so prevalent on AZ, that the initial value of the ideas will go unheeded in the storm...
the Beard

My sentiments exactly :cool:

[newfosgatesucks]

Shot 1, if the ball falls, you are faced with a difficult proposition on game ball. #2 I like, UNLESS you are playing a difficult table and Shot 1 Lays where you can put his @$$ on the middle diamond froze and lay up your ball. :)

If you dog a little Ill take 10-6

[lfigueroa]

You're too easy, Lou. Stick to something you're good at. Thinking is not it. :)

Skin <--can bend spoons with the best of them...loading the dishwasher


hmmm, wait a minute. Aren't you the college professor? Hold on a second....

Yeah, here it is, "Artie, I am a college professor. I gave up pool to do that."

So, professor, an argumentum ad hominem is the best you can do?

Shame, shame, bud. Looks to me like logical thought isn't exactly *your* long suit ;-)

Have a nice day.

Lou Figueroa

[lfigueroa]

Now children, be nice.

Having had some minor dischords with the very eloquent Mr. Figueroa in the past, I will say this.

He took the time to put into words, (maybe too many) my exact feelings on all the CIT,BHE,CTE and all the other alphabet crap the "science guy's" have thrown into our game.
Their geometric, precise engineering principles have bounced off these old ears like "collision induced" crap.

Lou's last paragraph (in his little tirade Skin linked to) has accurately summed up my opinion of ALL the aiming system "guru's", and I tell them that every chance I get.

Has anyone ever bothered to read one of those "aiming system" threads on AZB ?
They all run 5-600 posts, and they all wind up in a flame war, with vicious name calling, and insults hurled back and forth for days on end. School kids arguing make much more sense, and, I might add are more open-minded.
Most of them are very well educated, but ALL of them are frustrated in that they cannot agree on how to apply exact numerical equations to pool.
Their frustration is often furthered by the fact that most of them cannot make three balls in rotation.

So I say, right on Lou. You have my support to help stifle those elitist ASS people (Aiming System Supporters) and lets keep common sense logic in the our exchanges here at 1P.org.

Dick <---would prefer being 'water-boarded' to debating an ASS guy.


Thank you, Dick. You know, that was a rant that just came pouring out on another site, something like 10 years ago, in response to a lot of science that was going on on that particular group, at that time. I believe a couple of folks, including Jack, have posted it on their sites. For anyone that cares, here it is, lifted from another group and another time (complete with misspelling and four-part harmony :-)

My 2 cents:

I have played pool, off and on, since I was a teenager and first fell in
love with the game. I'm now 47. Here and there, there have been times
during which I've abandoned the game for periods of months, and in some
cases, years. Currently, I am in the sixth or seventh year of my latest
infatuation with the game. Over these past half dozen years or so, I've
regained some of my old skills, found that I never lost others, learned new
and marvelous things about the game and myself I'd never imagined before,
discovered one pocket, and then, sat at a skill plateau for four years.
Four years of effort, work, dedication, and frustration.

That's four years of regular practice, occasionally playing in tournaments
and money matches, fueled by an unrelenting love and study of the game. I
have read Ron's treatise, as well as Marlow, Capelle, Koehler, Harris, and a
number of more obscure works only a hard core fanatic would track down and
read. I've watched countless Accu-Stats tapes, and watched the
instructional works of Kinister, Feeney, Byrne, Rossman, Mathews, Icardona,
Briesath, Sigel, Rempe, et al. And here's what I've learned:

The equations don't mean squat.

When you are leaning over that critical shot, it is all about those hours
you've spent, hitting countless balls into the pockets, and how much
attention you've paid during that time and what you have taught yourself
during those hours.

Don't get me wrong. The equations are interesting. To some, they are fun.
And I believe there is no such thing as "too much knowledge." Certainly
there can be no harm in learning and understanding them. But a great pool
player they do not make.

I think, we sometimes make the mistake in this group, of placing way too
much emphasis on the x and y of it, instead of practical ways to learn the
physical act of shooting pool balls. Stance, head position, bridge, grip,
levelness of cue, and delivery are what it's about. Now before the science
guys (and the wannabe science guys :-) go ballistic, I want to say that I
like the diversity of the group and the fact that you can go from the
discussions about gyroscopes, to the first person accounts of road trips
taken.

But my point is that it's become impossible not to notice the almost elitist
disdain meted out by those wielding slide rules, against those that advocate
"just hit the damn ball." Whether the science guys like it or not, these
folks are closer to the truth and pass the test of Okam's Razor better than
any equation in APAPP ever will.

What makes a great, or at least a better pool player, is hours on the table,
not hours on the calculator.

Though I have been called "a natural" when it comes to pool, nothing could
be further from the truth. I work hard to achieve the modest success I
occasionally enjoy at pool. I do believe that, as in other walks of life,
there are some people who are complete and total naturals when it comes to a
particular skill. It is, in many respects, like setting out on an attempt
to conquer Everest. Some people stumble upon the mountain pass shortcuts
that lead them, almost effortlessly, to the top, clear weather all the way.
They pick up a pool cue and their physique, natural setup, and God given
hand-eye coordination, makes them play extraordinarily with virtually little
cognitive effort. Others have Sherpas that guide them through via the
shortest passes to the summit. But the majority of us read the maps and
books and struggle up the mountain, sometimes weathering blizzard conditions
that necessitate camping out on the whatever outcrop we can find. Despite
all our study, work, and preparation, the journey is sometimes hardest and
longest for those of us in this camp.

But the ultimate secret about pool can be found on page 46 of Capelle's "A
Mind for Pool":

"The big secret is that there is no single big secret."

No aiming system, no aim and pivot, no backhand english, no equations.

Just hit the damn ball.... over, and over, and over again.

Lou Figueroa

[SJDinPHX]

Thank you, Dick. You know, that was a rant that just came pouring out on another site, something like 10 years ago, in response to a lot of science that was going on on that particular group, at that time. I believe a couple of folks, including Jack, have posted it on their sites. For anyone that cares, here it is, lifted from another group and another time (complete with misspelling and four-part harmony :-)

My 2 cents:

I have played pool, off and on, since I was a teenager and first fell in
love with the game. I'm now 47. Here and there, there have been times
during which I've abandoned the game for periods of months, and in some
cases, years. Currently, I am in the sixth or seventh year of my latest
infatuation with the game. Over these past half dozen years or so, I've
regained some of my old skills, found that I never lost others, learned new
and marvelous things about the game and myself I'd never imagined before,
discovered one pocket, and then, sat at a skill plateau for four years.
Four years of effort, work, dedication, and frustration.

That's four years of regular practice, occasionally playing in tournaments
and money matches, fueled by an unrelenting love and study of the game. I
have read Ron's treatise, as well as Marlow, Capelle, Koehler, Harris, and a
number of more obscure works only a hard core fanatic would track down and
read. I've watched countless Accu-Stats tapes, and watched the
instructional works of Kinister, Feeney, Byrne, Rossman, Mathews, Icardona,
Briesath, Sigel, Rempe, et al. And here's what I've learned:

The equations don't mean squat.

When you are leaning over that critical shot, it is all about those hours
you've spent, hitting countless balls into the pockets, and how much
attention you've paid during that time and what you have taught yourself
during those hours.

Don't get me wrong. The equations are interesting. To some, they are fun.
And I believe there is no such thing as "too much knowledge." Certainly
there can be no harm in learning and understanding them. But a great pool
player they do not make.

I think, we sometimes make the mistake in this group, of placing way too
much emphasis on the x and y of it, instead of practical ways to learn the
physical act of shooting pool balls. Stance, head position, bridge, grip,
levelness of cue, and delivery are what it's about. Now before the science
guys (and the wannabe science guys :-) go ballistic, I want to say that I
like the diversity of the group and the fact that you can go from the
discussions about gyroscopes, to the first person accounts of road trips
taken.

But my point is that it's become impossible not to notice the almost elitist
disdain meted out by those wielding slide rules, against those that advocate
"just hit the damn ball." Whether the science guys like it or not, these
folks are closer to the truth and pass the test of Okam's Razor better than
any equation in APAPP ever will.

What makes a great, or at least a better pool player, is hours on the table,
not hours on the calculator.

Though I have been called "a natural" when it comes to pool, nothing could
be further from the truth. I work hard to achieve the modest success I
occasionally enjoy at pool. I do believe that, as in other walks of life,
there are some people who are complete and total naturals when it comes to a
particular skill. It is, in many respects, like setting out on an attempt
to conquer Everest. Some people stumble upon the mountain pass shortcuts
that lead them, almost effortlessly, to the top, clear weather all the way.
They pick up a pool cue and their physique, natural setup, and God given
hand-eye coordination, makes them play extraordinarily with virtually little
cognitive effort. Others have Sherpas that guide them through via the
shortest passes to the summit. But the majority of us read the maps and
books and struggle up the mountain, sometimes weathering blizzard conditions
that necessitate camping out on the whatever outcrop we can find. Despite
all our study, work, and preparation, the journey is sometimes hardest and
longest for those of us in this camp.

But the ultimate secret about pool can be found on page 46 of Capelle's "A
Mind for Pool":

"The big secret is that there is no single big secret."

No aiming system, no aim and pivot, no backhand english, no equations.

Just hit the damn ball.... over, and over, and over again.

Lou Figueroa

Lou, who, or should I say which "Jack", you are refering too ?

[Cowboy Dennis]

Shot 1, if the ball falls, you are faced with a difficult proposition on game ball. #2 I like, UNLESS you are playing a difficult table and Shot 1 Lays where you can put his @$$ on the middle diamond froze and lay up your ball. :)

If you dog a little Ill take 10-6


NFS,

No one has mentioned that shot since last leap year. But as long as you brought it up, I set it up yesterday and shot it to my right. I went three rails for shapes as shown. I made it on the first try. And got shapes on the one ball. This leads me to believe that it is a hanger. At least when shooting it to my right. No need for further practice with it. I also started laughing when it went in and people near me thought I was a little unbalanced. If they only knew.

Dennis

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3ABtf1NDLj4PPgq3Qcht1iDLj1iPpj4icAt4kPgq1kCeS2kajL2kDhj1kbWy3kaTi3kUWM2uCUO@

[lfigueroa]

the Beard
a lot of stuff...



Without getting into issues of arrogance and disrespect (and your gross lack of humility, while we're at it), and who has actually been doing the "knocking" around here ("...there is contingent of bad-mouthed knockers that take pleasure in p*ssing on all good player's posts."), the one issue I will get into is this "world-wide foremost authority" thing.

A few years back, Mike Sigel said in an article in BD that english didn't throw an object ball. Going back a little further, Mosconi taught, in his little blue and red books, that the way you made a frozen to the rail shot was by hitting the ball and cushion at the same time.

But they were wrong. And we all learned that from (guess who) the science guys.

So sometimes, those world-wide foremost authority kinda guys, need to swallow a little humility, and realize that being a world-wide foremost authority kinda guy doesn't give you a free pass to disregard the laws of physics. And, that even a world-wide foremost authority kinda guy can learn a thing or two from the pocket protector set ;-)

Lou Figueroa

[lfigueroa]

Lou, who, or should I say which "Jack", you are refering too ?


Jack Stein.

Skin -- he's such a fan of mine -- that he posted the link further back up the thread. I guess he was doing research on me.

#####
Lou, I rather suspect you wouldn't recognize valid science if it walked up to you and ran eight-and-out on the break. Evidence enough for this is your spelling of Occam's (as in Occam's Razor), "Okam's". Sheesh.

http://jbstein.com/lou.htm

At any rate, these "science" guys mostly are engineering guys and what they put out is not science as they will usually readily admit when pressed on the issue. Their opinions may be entertaining, but they certainly are nothing to toss a virgin into a volcano over, as you seem far too eager to do, IMHO.

Skin <-- is NOT implying that Freddy is a virgin, nor even that he could play one on TV
#####


I figured few would check out the link to Jack's site, so I posted the whole post he was referring to.

Lou Figueroa

[NH Steve]

NFS,

No one has mentioned that shot since last leap year. But as long as you brought it up, I set it up yesterday and shot it to my right. I went three rails for shapes as shown. I made it on the first try. And got shapes on the one ball. This leads me to believe that it is a hanger. At least when shooting it to my right. No need for further practice with it. I also started laughing when it went in and people near me thought I was a little unbalanced. If they only knew.

Dennis

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3ABtf1NDLj4PPgq3Qcht1iDLj1iPpj4icAt4kPgq1kCeS2kajL2kDhj1kbWy3kaTi3kUWM2uCUO@
I would also like to add I set it up and hit it a bunch of times. I had earlier posted that I always worry about the scratch in my opponent's pocket as the cue ball swings around. The Ghost pointed out that with a little less english, the cue ball won't scratch if you hit it decent, because it falls a diamond or two up the side cushion from the corner. That is good advice and definitely works. But, I realized that a lot of times I'm playing that bank more as a "move" than a run out, and I want the shot to be going "pocket speed" AND I want the cue ball to end up close to the bottom cushion. More english lets me hit the object ball softer, so it goes pocket speed, and the cue ball still nicely drifts around the table and all the way back down (flirting with the corner pocket scratch, yes). If I let up with the english at this kind of angle, I've got to hit the shot so much harder to get all the way around, the object ball is either in the pocket (once in a while) or bounces way back away from my hole -- not necessarily my objective.

All that rambling and my point is, more running english = a lot more distance on the cue ball relative to the same distance on the object ball at this sort of angle.

[NH Steve]

Jack Stein.

Skin -- he's such a fan of mine -- that he posted the link further back up the thread. I guess he was doing research on me.

#####
Lou, I rather suspect you wouldn't recognize valid science if it walked up to you and ran eight-and-out on the break. Evidence enough for this is your spelling of Occam's (as in Occam's Razor), "Okam's". Sheesh.

http://jbstein.com/lou.htm

At any rate, these "science" guys mostly are engineering guys and what they put out is not science as they will usually readily admit when pressed on the issue. Their opinions may be entertaining, but they certainly are nothing to toss a virgin into a volcano over, as you seem far too eager to do, IMHO.

Skin <-- is NOT implying that Freddy is a virgin, nor even that he could play one on TV
#####


I figured few would check out the link to Jack's site, so I posted the whole post he was referring to.

Lou Figueroa
My own beef was just that you would snitch from Freddy here on onepocket.org and post on AZ -- despite his specific objection to that.
The bulk of the science stuff went over my head -- yet, didn't even "the science guys" agree that grip does have some effect on cue ball action --> and the same guys already agree that cue ball action does effect object ball action (to a degree -- enough to make certain shots work better). So, wasn't it all proven in the long run, that -----> Freddy was right? :D :D :D

And Lou, it's pretty obvious you enjoy stirring the pot -- and have a long history of it, solidly rooted in the rec.sport.billiards tradition. It's more than a little disingenuous to consistently stir it up, but then give us the innocent "who, me?" act...

[SJDinPHX]

the Beard

Lastly, for SJD, what aiming system post on this thread are you talking about? I'm feeling very defensive, are you talking to me?

Freddy,

I would never "hint" about anything like that. I do not now, nor never have considered you an A.S.S. man.
Also, I would never "pile on" when two grown men are having a heated disagreement.
(thats 15 yards and loss of respect as far as I'm concerned.)

So continue your dalliance with Lou, and leave me out of it.

Dick <--- will return when everyone gets over their sensitivity issues. :rolleyes:

[fred bentivegna]

Without getting into issues of arrogance and disrespect (and your gross lack of humility, while we're at it)

Beard: I have never, ever professed to have even a drop of humility when it came to bank pool and bank science. It's only bragging if you can't do it. Bank science to me means that I show you a method and that method makes it easier to execute the shot.

...and who has actually been doing the "knocking" around here ("...there is contingent of bad-mouthed knockers that take pleasure in p*ssing on all good player's posts."),

Beard: Would you believe that I wasn't actually talking about you with that comment? Guilt complex? In truth, up til now I actually had you in the category of those forum posters that I respected and had no Axe to grind with. You're not actually saying that there isn't a contingent of bad-mouthed knockers lurking over there are you?

the one issue I will get into is this "world-wide foremost authority" thing.

Beard: I'll say again, am I or aren't I, and if not, who is?


A few years back, Mike Sigel said in an article in BD that English didn't throw an object ball. Going back a little further, Mosconi taught, in his little blue and red books, that the way you made a frozen to the rail shot was by hitting the ball and cushion at the same time.But they were wrong. And we all learned that from (guess who) the science guys.
So sometimes, those world-wide foremost authority kinda guys, need to swallow a little humility, and realize that being a world-wide foremost authority kinda guy doesn't give you a free pass to disregard the laws of physics. And, that even a world-wide foremost authority kinda guy can learn a thing or two from the pocket protector set ;-)

Lou Figueroa

I will try and leave my final thoughts here. I still haven't opened up and read a single post on any of those 2 threads you started on AZ, so I have remained somewhat composed. But I have to say this, "I gave you gold and you p*ssed on it!" I have read, reread, and memorized 95% of every book ever written on pool and billiards, including much of the stuff from overseas. Thousands and thousands of pages, and yet there is nine zillion pieces of ORIGINAL INFORMATION, stuff not found anywhere ---- but in my books and DVDs!? That's why I ain't humble. Plus, I don't knock those science guys, I read their stuff and consider it. Once in awhile I learn something. But my knowledge is practical knowledge. Something you can bet your cheese on. Something you can fall back on when your knees are knocking and you are about to pee in your pants. I think that guy Kohler, who wrote The Science of Pocket Billiards is a genius, but he had no clue as to how to apply his information into a real pool situation. A smarter man than you would have kept his yap shut and just let me rave on and empty out. I'm back on defense again and don't feel too magnanimous anymore. Have a good day.

the Beard

[fred bentivegna]

Freddy,

I would never "hint" about anything like that. I do not now, nor never have considered you an A.S.S. man.
Also, I would never "pile on" when two grown men are having a heated disagreement.
(thats 15 yards and loss of respect as far as I'm concerned.)

So continue your dalliance with Lou, and leave me out of it.

Dick <--- will return when everyone gets over their sensitivity issues. :rolleyes:

Actually, I am an A.S.S. man, but you have to remove the periods.

the Beard

You called me "docile" in that other thread? Was that meant as a compliment?

[lfigueroa]

My own beef was just that you would snitch from Freddy here on onepocket.org and post on AZ -- despite his specific objection to that.
The bulk of the science stuff went over my head -- yet, didn't even "the science guys" agree that grip does have some effect on cue ball action --> and the same guys already agree that cue ball action does effect object ball action (to a degree -- enough to make certain shots work better). So, wasn't it all proven in the long run, that -----> Freddy was right? :D :D :D

And Lou, it's pretty obvious you enjoy stirring the pot -- and have a long history of it, solidly rooted in the rec.sport.billiards tradition. It's more than a little disingenuous to consistently stir it up, but then give us the innocent "who, me?" act...


Well, I don't know that the final vote is in, but saying a tighter grip changes CB behavior is far, far, far away from proving it produces CIT on an OB.

And you like to bring up RSB a lot. How many times is this, here or in a PM? I'm not sure why, because it seems you don't really get it.

For the record, I don't enjoy "stirring the pot," as you put it. But I don't avoid a good argument either, especially when the emperor is not wearing a stitch. I also don't mind using humor, if appropriate, in some discussions. If that gives you the impression that I enjoy it, no -- it's just a way of dealing with some of the baloney that gets tossed around on these discussion groups.

If there is any "RSB tradition," it's that ideas stand or fall on their merits, without attaching all the baloney about I'm a world-wide legend in my own mind. People that try that find that that crap doesn't fly very far on RSB.

That's not stirring the pot, that's just saying, "Ma. He ain't got no clothes on."

Lou Figueroa

[lfigueroa]

I will try and leave my final thoughts here. I still haven't opened up and read a single post on any of those 2 threads you started on AZ, so I have remained somewhat composed. But I have to say this, "I gave you gold and you p*ssed on it!" I have read, reread, and memorized 95% of every book ever written on pool and billiards, including much of the stuff from overseas. Thousands and thousands of pages, and yet there is nine zillion pieces of ORIGINAL INFORMATION, stuff not found anywhere ---- but in my books and DVDs!? That's why I ain't humble. Plus, I don't knock those science guys, I read their stuff and consider it. Once in awhile I learn something. But my knowledge is practical knowledge. Something you can bet your cheese on. Something you can fall back on when your knees are knocking and you are about to pee in your pants. I think that guy Kohler, who wrote The Science of Pocket Billiards is a genius, but he had no clue as to how to apply his information into a real pool situation. A smarter man than you would have kept his yap shut and just let me rave on and empty out. I'm back on defense again and don't feel too magnanimous anymore. Have a good day.

the Beard


What was the gold? That a tighter grip produces CIT on an OB?!

Lou Figueroa
must notify the Federal Reserve
to check the vaults at Ft. Knox

[fred bentivegna]

What was the gold? That a tighter grip produces CIT on an OB?!

Lou Figueroa
must notify the Federal Reserve
to check the vaults at Ft. Knox

There is an old saying, "A fool convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still." I give up.

The denuded Emperor Beard

Has anybody shot any shots doing what I suggested?
Artie could you loan me some drawers to put on?

[lfigueroa]

There is an old saying, "A fool convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still." I give up.

The denuded Emperor Beard

Has anybody shot any shots doing what I suggested?
Artie could you loan me some drawers to put on?


Sure, let's all give up. Why should anyone question anything you say? Clearly, you are the keeper of all truth and knowledge. I can't believe I dared to doubt you, laws of physics be damned!

But just in passing, yes, I've shot the shot. And it does turn out different, when I do as you say. However, when I keep my eyes on the CB and cue tip, what I see -- when I squeeze the butt more tightly -- is the cue tip moving over slightly down and to the right. I think that's what's causing the different outcome.

"Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods."
Albert Einstein

Lou Figueroa

[fred bentivegna]

Sure, let's all give up. Why should anyone question anything you say? Clearly, you are the keeper of all truth and knowledge. I can't believe I dared to doubt you, laws of physics be damned!

But just in passing, yes, I've shot the shot. And it does turn out different, when I do as you say. However, when I keep my eyes on the CB and cue tip, what I see -- when I squeeze the butt more tightly -- is the cue tip moving over slightly down and to the right. I think that's what's causing the different outcome.

"Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods."
Albert Einstein

Lou Figueroa


Forgive me for showing you something that works, but neglecting to feed your "What's it all about, Alfie?" predilections. Promise me you will never use it until you have solved the secret formula. "Squeeze the butt," does seem a bit complicated.

the Beard

Hasn't anybody figured it out on AZ yet?

[lfigueroa]

Forgive me for showing you something that works, but neglecting to feed your "What's it all about, Alfie?" predilections. Promise me you will never use it until you have solved the secret formula. "Squeeze the butt," does seem a bit complicated.

the Beard

Hasn't anybody figured it out on AZ yet?


I haven't taken a poll, but over on AZ, I think the consensus is, well, that you're nuts (hey, you asked :-).

And yeah, I guess you're right about how complicated it is...

About as complicated and believable as, "Click your heels together three times," Dorothy.

Lou Figueroa

[demonrho]

I haven't taken a poll, but over on AZ, I think the consensus is, well, that you're nuts (hey, you asked :-)...About as complicated and believable as, "Click your heels together three times," Dorothy.

Lou Figueroa

Lou, we already know your prowess at getting people's goats;) . But how does it serve this forum's quest for one pocket knowledge by deliberately needling someone who is genuinely trying to share their knowledge? And there is something to this grip pressure stuff... but I myself am not necessarily into raising the knowledge level of possible opponents:rolleyes: .

[lfigueroa]

Lou, we already know your prowess at getting people's goats;) . But how does it serve this forum's quest for one pocket knowledge by deliberately needling someone who is genuinely trying to share their knowledge? And there is something to this grip pressure stuff... but I myself am not necessarily into raising the knowledge level of possible opponents:rolleyes: .


You can get goats around here?! I had no idea (I love roasted goat :-)

Actually though, I'm with you when it comes to seeking 1pocket knowledge. But for some reason, there seems to be a disconnect, between a technique that may work for some people and the reason that technique works for some people. I am just trying to figure that part out. But there is this non-stop bluster from the direction of the Windy City along the lines of, "I will brook no ressistance to my advice. I will explain, maybe, but I will never defend."

What is that? Is that helping anyone seeking knowledge? No, it's just plain old: How dare you question me?! I know everything. You know nothing. I will not explain.

That's not very helpful either.

I said way back up in this thread, "Freddy, first let me say that I really appreciate you sharing some of the inside knowledge here that you do. And I know that youze bank guys have these secret society wrist and grip techniques, that you've been using, successfully, for eons (I seem to recall reading an article describing how Glenn Rodgers, aka Piggy Banks, uses certain wrist/grip techniques on certain shots."

So I'm on record as believing it can work... just not for the reasons advertised. An answer to why that is, is worth seeking.

Lou Figueroa

[gulfportdoc]

Personal references aside, I think these type of discussions are educational. I like to understand why something works in a given situation so that I can know how to use it in similar situations.

We all know that high spin causes a CB to follow, low spin causes the CB to stop or draw back, inside english causes an OB to shorten its bank angle, etc. So if certain techniques cause specific physical reactions, it's instructional to know why that happens in order to apply it to other circumstances.

For example if I'm faced with an important bank shot, I'm going to want to know several ways to shoot it so that I can plan my strategy. At that point I'm likely to draw on my knowledge from other similar shots.

If I know a principle, I can apply that principle to other situations. If I only know a specific shot, then I have to learn each and every shot in every circumstance. I'd rather understand the principle.

Doc

[lfigueroa]

Personal references aside, I think these type of discussions are educational. I like to understand why something works in a given situation so that I can know how to use it in similar situations.

We all know that high spin causes a CB to follow, low spin causes the CB to stop or draw back, inside english causes an OB to shorten its bank angle, etc. So if certain techniques cause specific physical reactions, it's instructional to know why that happens in order to apply it to other circumstances.

For example if I'm faced with an important bank shot, I'm going to want to know several ways to shoot it so that I can plan my strategy. At that point I'm likely to draw on my knowledge from other similar shots.

If I know a principle, I can apply that principle to other situations. If I only know a specific shot, then I have to learn each and every shot in every circumstance. I'd rather understand the principle.

Doc


Right, exactly, Doc. It's sort of like that old Chinese proverb: Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will sit out in a boat and drink beer all day.

...or something like that.

Lou Figueroa
should have saved
that fortune cookie :-)

[SJDinPHX]

Right, exactly, Doc. It's sort of like that old Chinese proverb: Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will sit out in a boat and drink beer all day.

...or something like that.

Lou Figueroa
should have saved
that fortune cookie :-)

Freddy and Lou,

I admire guys like yourself, Freddy, you have taken the time and effort to put out books and DVD's like Grady, Hopkin's, Buddy, and others have done, only you work much harder at it. And it shows.
Lou has contributed by authoring several well written articles in Billiard magazines.
I wish you all success in those ventures. By the way Freddy, when I called you "docile" I was being facetious. You are the 'least' docile person I know.

However, that being said, I can see your detractor's point. ( even though he is a top notch s--t disturber)
Just a touch of humility might really serve you quite well. Have you ever tried it ?
I know that is not your nature, and thats not necessarily a bad thing, but it can be a tough pill to swallow sometimes.

It seems to me, if you are indeed the worlds greatest authority on banking, why would you just say "I'm right and you are wrong"
You need to be able to prove your point, beyond a doubt, otherwise it is argumentative suicide.

I'm not taking anyones side in this minor flare-up, but I do have to ask a question....Why does it seem, like almost everyone from Chicago, who posts here, thinks they are 'UNQUESTIONABLY' the foremost authority on ANY given pool game. ?
Don't you find it odd, that the worlds greatest Banker, the world's greatest One Pocket player, and the world's foremost authority on the physics of pool, all hail from (ahem) the "windy city" ?

Chicago is a great town, I love it, and go there often to visit family. But the level of braggadacio can be overwhelming at times.

Are all the other good player's just "chopped liver" who can't possibly know anything, because they're not a native Chicagoan ? I would wager this opinion is shared by way more people than care to admit it in their posts.

JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION,

Dick <---wishes he was a "perfect, mistake free" player too, but, alas, it may be too late to get there. :eek:

[SJDinPHX]

Freddy and Lou,

I admire guys like yourself, Freddy, you have taken the time and effort to put out books and DVD's like Grady, Hopkin's, Buddy, and others have done. Lou has contributed by authoring several articles in Billiard magazines.
I wish you all success in those ventures. By the way Freddy, when I called you "docile" I was being facetious. You are the 'least' docile person I know.

However, that being said, I can see your detractor's point. ( even though he is a top notch s--t disturber)
Just a touch of humility might really serve you quite well. Have you ever tried it ?
I know that is not your nature, and thats not necessarily a bad thing, but it can be a tough pill to swallow sometimes.

It seems to me, if you are indeed the worlds greatest authority on banking, why would you just say "I'm right and you are wrong"
You need to be able to prove your point, beyond a doubt, otherwise it is argumentative suicide.

I'm not taking anyones side in this conflagration, but I do have to ask a question....Why does it seem, like almost everyone from Chicago thinks they are 'UNQUESTIONABLY' the foremost authority on ANY given pool game. ?
Don't you find it odd, that the worlds greatest Banker, One Pocket player, and the foremost authority on the physics of pool,
all hail from (ahem) the "windy city" ?
Chicago is a great town, I love it, and go there often to visit family. But the level of braggadacio can be overwhelming at times.

Are all the other good player's just "chopped liver" who don't have a clue ? This opinion is shared by way more people than care to admit in their posts.

JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION,

Dick <---wishes he was "perfect, mistake free" too, but, alas, it may be too late to get there. :eek:

Bump for Lou and Fred (does this count as quoting myself Dennis ?) BTW, was this a smooth hi-jacking or what ? I could get a job in Somalia, huh ?

[Cowboy Dennis]

Bump for Lou and Fred (does this count as quoting myself Dennis ?) BTW, was this a smooth hi-jacking or what ? I could get a job in Somalia, huh ?


Yeah Dick, it was smooth. 124 replies that went off track after about the 10th one.

Dennis

[Cowboy Dennis]

Freddy and Lou,

I admire guys like yourself, Freddy, you have taken the time and effort to put out books and DVD's like Grady, Hopkin's, Buddy, and others have done. Lou has contributed by authoring several articles in Billiard magazines.
I wish you all success in those ventures. By the way Freddy, when I called you "docile" I was being facetious. You are the 'least' docile person I know.

However, that being said, I can see your detractor's point. ( even though he is a top notch s--t disturber)
Just a touch of humility might really serve you quite well. Have you ever tried it ?
I know that is not your nature, and thats not necessarily a bad thing, but it can be a tough pill to swallow sometimes.

It seems to me, if you are indeed the worlds greatest authority on banking, why would you just say "I'm right and you are wrong"
You need to be able to prove your point, beyond a doubt, otherwise it is argumentative suicide.

I'm not taking anyones side in this conflagration, but I do have to ask a question....Why does it seem, like almost everyone from Chicago thinks they are 'UNQUESTIONABLY' the foremost authority on ANY given pool game. ?
Don't you find it odd, that the worlds greatest Banker, One Pocket player, and the foremost authority on the physics of pool,
all hail from (ahem) the "windy city" ?
Chicago is a great town, I love it, and go there often to visit family. But the level of braggadacio can be overwhelming at times.

Are all the other good player's just "chopped liver" who don't have a clue ? This opinion is shared by way more people than care to admit in their posts.

JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION,

Dick <---wishes he was "perfect, mistake free" too, but, alas, it may be too late to get there. :eek:


I also will never choose sides with anyone who is having a nasty time with someone else. And I'll not interfere either.But I will say this just so Dick does not feel alone. I agree with most of what he wrote. I only wish I could express myself so well. He wrote pretty much what I think. This site should be a little more fun. I don't have a problem with anyone here and do not want one. Differences of opinion make this site what it is when people (anyone) voice their ideas and discuss them. That's what this site is for. Idea exchanges and learning. None of us want our entire body of work attacked by anyone. We would all be defensive about that. Otherwise we may as well just go to the All-Zaniness site and shut this one down. Nobody wants that I'm sure.

Dennis

[demonrho]

...sort of like that old Chinese proverb: Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will sit out in a boat and drink beer all day...

Yeah, you can do your fishing using a lure or you can do your fishing tossing dynamite in the water:D .

[lll]

the tough part is some people (you know who you are) cant agree to disagree but have to make things personal. thats when it gets ugly. the debates are educational. i hope they dont stop. just wish some of you guys could be civil to each other. i guess to survive agressive skills prevail. however maybe on the forum think of it as a partners game with each on the same side trying to win as a team while voicing your opinion.( i have not played too many partner games so if that is a bad analogy just forget it)

[Skin]

The discussion was going along nicely until a 3-letter abbreviation - in this case "CIT" - and "science guys" got brought into it. Then it went to hell fast. Happens every time, the same as when aiming systems are invoked.

Skin

[NH Steve]

The discussion was going along nicely until a 3-letter abbreviation - in this case "CIT" - and "science guys" got brought into it. Then it went to hell fast. Happens every time, the same as when aiming systems are invoked.

SkinI agree 100%. The curious thing to me is that Lou seems to claim some kind of victory -- like he proved something. If anything, the science guys seem to all agree that you get the most english transfer to an object ball at less than maximum cue ball english. And as I read it, the science guys also agree that you get maximum cue ball english with a flexible grip. Yet somehow Lou thinks Freddy is wrong to suggest trying a stiff grip (which for many players would seem to naturally back off on their cue ball english) to get those very results that the science guys agree on??? It sure sounds to me like Freddy had a good suggestion -- that would certainly work within the principles of science for some players. But what do I know :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[fred bentivegna]

I agree 100%. The curious thing to me is that Lou seems to claim some kind of victory -- like he proved something. If anything, the science guys seem to all agree that you get the most english transfer to an object ball at less than maximum cue ball english. And as I read it, the science guys also agree that you get maximum cue ball english with a flexible grip. Yet somehow Lou thinks Freddy is wrong to suggest trying a stiff grip (which for many players would seem to naturally back off on their cue ball english) to get those very results that the science guys agree on??? It sure sounds to me like Freddy had a good suggestion -- that would certainly work within the principles of science for some players. But what do I know :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Thanks for your support Steve.

When I was a youngster, Eddie Taylor was my hero. I once begged him to show me how to make his famous shot (the one where the ob ball and the q ball are 1 ball space off the short rail and he banks the ball cross corner with the q ball ducking underneath the ob ball). He was basically through with high stakes pool at the time due to his cataract condition, so he took mercy and obliged me. When he showed me the basics of the shot and then released his secret, a certain wrist turn at the proper moment, I didn't ask him if he had cleared that info with MIT, I thanked him, tried it on the pool table, discovered that it works, and then kept it to myself for 40 years. Here is the short list of bankers that utilize, in special circumstances, a wrist turn: Piggy Bank Rogers, Truman Hogue, Bugs, Cliff Joyner, me, and a few, very few, others. Side note: Denny Glenn, the pool historian/collector had Eddie Taylor autograph E Robins whole 1pkt book. Taylor wrote a comment under every photo. Under my photo, The Bear wrote, "Here's a kid who really knows the game of bank pool."
SJD, and you wonder why I'm difficult and cocky? A guy like Eddie Taylor points to me personally -- in print -- and I shouldn't take offense when somebody poops on my ideas, and then throws them up for grabs on AZ?
If people knew me, they would understand that me releasing -- for free-- deep dark bank secrets, is like peeling skin off my body. So the most I can do is drizzle it out, a little at a time, and then wait to observe how it is accepted and absorbed. If it is accepted in a manner that I am comfortable with -- and I don't mean that anyone has to kiss my ass -- I'll go further.
That is how I got it, that's what I had to do to get it, and that's the only way I will disperse it.
What has happened on the forums, however, is the responses are usually negative, critical, or dismissive, and that sends me back to the shutdown mode. In fairness, there are those who are respectful, and appreciative, and it does bother me that those deserving players on here and AZ lose out to my old-fashioned consternation.

the Beard

There have been 2 well attended threads, "Using Inside to open up the angle," and "Using Outside to shorten up the angle." Excuse me, didnt I mention along with the butt squeeze, that maximum eng could act in an opposite way?
My sanity is still intact. I still haven't given in and looked at a single post off of those two bank threads that Lou started on AZ.

[Cowboy Dennis]

Thanks for your support Steve.

When I was a youngster, Eddie Taylor was my hero. I once begged him to show me how to make his famous shot (the one where the ob ball and the q ball are 1 ball space off the short rail and he banks the ball cross corner with the q ball ducking underneath the ob ball). He was basically through with high stakes pool at the time due to his cataract condition, so he took mercy and obliged me. When he showed me the basics of the shot and then released his secret, a certain wrist turn at the proper moment, I didn't ask him if he had cleared that info with MIT, I thanked him, tried it on the pool table, discovered that it works, and then kept it to myself for 40 years. Here is the short list of bankers that utilize, in special circumstances, a wrist turn: Piggy Bank Rogers, Truman Hogue, Bugs, Cliff Joyner, me, and a few, very few, others. Side note: Denny Glenn, the pool historian/collector had Eddie Taylor autograph E Robins whole 1pkt book. Taylor wrote a comment under every photo. Under my photo, The Bear wrote, "Here's a kid who really knows the game of bank pool."
SJD, and you wonder why I'm difficult and cocky? A guy like Eddie Taylor points to me personally -- in print -- and I shouldn't take offense when somebody poops on my ideas, and then throws them up for grabs on AZ?
If people knew me, they would understand that me releasing -- for free-- deep dark bank secrets, is like peeling skin off my body. So the most I can do is drizzle it out, a little at a time, and then wait to observe how it is accepted and absorbed. If it is accepted in a manner that I am comfortable with -- and I don't mean that anyone has to kiss my ass -- I'll go further.
That is how I got it, that's what I had to do to get it, and that's the only way I will disperse it.
What has happened on the forums, however, is the responses are usually negative, critical, or dismissive, and that sends me back to the shutdown mode. In fairness, there are those who are respectful, and appreciative, and it does bother me that those deserving players on here and AZ lose out to my old-fashioned consternation.

the Beard

There have been 2 well attended threads, "Using Inside to open up the angle," and "Using Outside to shorten up the angle." Excuse me, didnt I mention along with the butt squeeze, that maximum eng could act in an opposite way?
My sanity is still intact. I still haven't given in and looked at a single post off of those two bank threads that Lou started on AZ.


Freddy,

You have a lot more support out here than you think. Like I wrote in my post, none of us would like our entire body of work to be insulted or ridiculed. But you did not get to be the player you are by having thin skin. Please don't go into shutdown mode. And try ignoring people who are just trying to get you going. That's what I do now.

Dennis

[Fatboy]

Thanks for your support Steve.

When I was a youngster, Eddie Taylor was my hero. I once begged him to show me how to make his famous shot (the one where the ob ball and the q ball are 1 ball space off the short rail and he banks the ball cross corner with the q ball ducking underneath the ob ball),


can someone please make a wei table to show this shot??? I think I have it confused with another shot. thanks in adance???


I understand Mr. Beards frustraition, I'm no champion, or have any history of beating gladitors at pool, I been around pro pool since 85, am far more experienced about some things than I am a great player, I been on the road, played in $5000 action pleanty of times, paid part of my dues. I'm perhaps in the top 10%-20% of the az community for hours spent in a pool room, gambling, etc. But that counts for nothing on a message board, what credibility I have in pool or Mr. Beard has means shit online these days, look back 3 years ago and it did count for something, now its league nite on pool message boards, shame.


And all they do there is count my $$$(i wish i had what they think i have), they are more worried about me personally than pool(worried might be the wrong word they are looking for any thing to knock me for), so I left AZ for the most part. I look at cue pics because I love cues, but I'm done participating in the day to day stuff and its a loss for alot of up and comming players-becuase of the knockers most of which are wemon who cant even play to begin with. So I get it with Mr. Beard, I'm not aware of the specific situation that he is upset about-but I understand him.


So i'm here now,

best


eric

[lll]

freddy i have your books and dvds . if only i could memorize every thing!!! i am methodically trying to shoot the banks until i "own " them and understand the concepts when they come up in different angles.(docs idea of you taught me to fish and im fishing. (the science guys might drink beer all day on the boat) but im trying to put your info to good use. bank on brother and beleive 99% of the people here DO respect you and want to learn from you.larry

[SJDinPHX]

I think I see a trend here. We are all (most of us anyway) reaching the twilight of our years, and skins ARE getting a little "thin"

Freddy, I paid you due respect in my opening remarks. You chose to ignore them, and launched into your defense mode, as if you were retaliating to Lou.

You also ignored my reference to Chicago, for which I don't blame you. No one can answer those questions ! (I fully expect to hear from your fellow Chi-guy's on THAT subject.)

I was in Shreveport when Eddie passed. as was my good friend Alfie Taylor, who held his hand as he slipped away. I did not get to know him real well, until his health had allready began its decline. But I did greatly enjoy his company and story swapping, down at the pool room. He was certainly a class act.

I don't fault you for being proud of your idol's remark in Denny Glenn's book, but did you honestly think Eddie would write under your picture..."This kid don't know s--t from shinola about banks"...of course he wouldn't. So again, I say this could be where a humility check is in order.

Also, let me I say once more, I admire your wit and wisdom, and your body of work. You are a great storyteller and you've paid your dues as a "Banker extrordinaire".
But Fred, the pool universe does NOT revolve around one's skill, at a game that many of us never even tried to play.
I'm not sure that it matters to you, (or me for that matter) but you know the list of accomplished players who did NOT play bank pool, would be ten times longer than those who did. So for those whose world revolves around banks, I would say you ARE probably, the world's foremost authority. (that includes Chicago) ;)

If you want me to bow to you in submission, which seems to be what you really want, I'm sorry if I don't fall in lockstep.

I hope we can be friendly adversaries, in this discussion. There is no right or wrong, there is only OUR hard-headed opinions.

Dick <---hopes he hasn't hurt your "feelers" too much, but I too, will state my case when confronted. :eek:

PS I woke up in a better mood than I went to bed, so I did some selective editing from the original text. :cool:

[gulfportdoc]

...docs idea of you taught me to fish and im fishing...
Thanks, Larry, but I don't fish or drink anymore. That was Lou who said that. He drinks lots of beer...:D

Doc

[SJDinPHX]

the tough part is some people (you know who you are) cant agree to disagree but have to make things personal. thats when it gets ugly. the debates are educational. i hope they dont stop. just wish some of you guys could be civil to each other. i guess to survive agressive skills prevail. however maybe on the forum think of it as a partners game with each on the same side trying to win as a team while voicing your opinion.( i have not played too many partner games so if that is a bad analogy just forget it)

May not be the best analogy lll, I have seen partner's come to blows over shot selection. Fortunately, a cyber punch does not leave a black eye.

Dick <--- has never KO'd his partner...but I have tried. :rolleyes:

[Cowboy Dennis]

I have seen partner's come to blows over shot selection.

:


When you are my partner in a one-pocket game I will make sure that you understand that it is your sacred duty to do every (subtle) thing that you can think of to get the other two guys arguing with each other over shot selection or anything else. Divide and conquer.

[fred bentivegna]

I think I see a trend here. We are all (most of us anyway) reaching the twilight of our years, and skins ARE getting a little "thin"

Methinks thou's skin be a tad low ply also. Aside from one single short comment, I wasnt addressing you at all. I was basically pontificating to Lou and the rest of the world.

Freddy, I paid you due respect in my opening remarks. You chose to ignore them, and launched into your defense mode, as if you were retaliating to Lou.

Yes you did, you gave me some props and then took me apart. That's like when the cheating wife says, "I love you, and you have been a wonderful husband .... but...." I can appreciate your objectiveness, but I couldnt find that same objectivity about my shit being dumped on AZ for eviceration.

I was in Shreveport when Eddie passed. as was my good friend Alfie Taylor, who held his hand as he slipped away. I did not get to know him real well, until his health had allready began its decline. But I did greatly enjoy his company and story swapping, down at the pool room. He was certainly a class act.
I don't fault you for being proud of your idol's remark in Denny Glenn's book, but did you honestly think Eddie would write under your picture..."This kid don't know s--t from shinola about banks"...of course he wouldn't. So again, I say this could be where a humility check is in order.

Unfortunately for many of the players in the photos in Robin's book, only a very select few received actual compliments on their knowledge or ability.

Also, let me I say once more, I admire your wit and wisdom, and your body of work. You are a great storyteller and you've paid your dues as a "Banker extrordinaire".....So for those whose world revolves around banks, I would say you ARE probably, the world's foremost authority...

We have finally found something we can agree upon. I actually missed that line the first time I read the post.

If you want me to bow to you in submission, which seems to be what you really want, I'm sorry if I don't fall in lockstep.

Now you are just spouting rhetoric, not objectiveness, which is what your post was supposed to represent. Whatever gave you that insulting idea? I might enjoy shooting you full of holes in a pool game, but I dont need any bowing. I'll leave that up to Obama.


I hope we can be friendly adversaries, in this discussion. There is no right or wrong, there is only OUR hard-headed opinions.

Dick <---hopes he hasn't hurt your "feelers" too much, but I too, will state my case when confronted. :eek:

PS I woke up in a better mood than I went to bed, so I did some selective editing from the original text. :cool:

I can only imagine what horror you must have removed from the first draft.

the Beard

I think the next time we meet we will have to play.

[SJDinPHX]

I can only imagine what horror you must have removed from the first draft.

the Beard

I think the next time we meet we will have to play.

Beardman,

My computer skills do not allow me to selectively disect a post, and take statements out of context, and avoid many others, while posting YOUR response in Bold print. Another "Ghostly" Chicagoan does the same thing.

It's all in fun and nothing personal, but PUHLEEEEZE be subjective and just occasionally admit you may just possibly, (brace yourself)
...BE WRONG !!!

I will not point them out, but I will leave it to your humble (sic) discretion to
reply to the questions you chose to disregard.

Dick <--wishes Fred would reply in kind....without selective editing.:eek:

PS Now that we are both dependent on walkers, I agree we should play next time we meet...before one of us succumbs to alzheimers or worse.
We can play any game you can name, for any amount you can count.
Possible exception "Banks", which I can not recall ever playing a game (for $$$) in my life. However, that being said, I would accept a slight handicap at banks, and would reciprocate at 1P.....flip it !!! :eek:

[timdog24]

Beardman,

My computer skills do not allow me to selectively disect a post, and take statements out of context, and avoid many others, while posting YOUR response in Bold print. Another "Ghostly" Chicagoan does the same thing.

It's all in fun and nothing personal, but PUHLEEEEZE be subjective and just occasionally admit you may just possibly be (brace yourself) WRONG !!!

I will not point them out, but I will leave it to your humble (sic) discretion to
reply to the questions you chose to disregard.

Dick <--wishes Fred would reply in kind....without selective editing.:eek:

PS Now that we are both dependent on walkers, I agree we should play next time we meet...before one of us succumbs to alzheimers or worse.
We can play any game you can name, for any amount you can count.
Possible exception "Banks", which I can not recall ever playing a game (for $$$) in my life. However, that being said, I would accept a slight handicap at banks, and would reciprocate at 1P.....flip it !!! :eek:

Tim thinks Dick should be paid for his posts. They are always on the money. Love the Beard, as his books/dvds (I pass on the shirts though) have helped me out a ton,.. but he needs to lighten up just a bit. On another note, not trying to add fuel to the fire, but would love to see this Clash of the One Pocket Titans match.

[SJDinPHX]

Tim thinks Dick should be paid for his posts. They are always on the money. Love the Beard, as his books/dvds (I pass on the shirts though) have helped me out a ton,.. but he needs to lighten up just a bit. On another note, not trying to add fuel to the fire, but would love to see this Clash of the One Pocket Titans match.

Thanks Tim, but forgive my lack of humility...."One Pocket Titans" would not be plural. :D See how bad that sounds Freddy ?

[fred bentivegna]

Since everyone knows that a spot in bank pool is much stronger than 1pkt (eight and out in 1pkt is way more prevalent ocurrence than banks), I would suggest a spot of one ball in bank pool , 8 to 7 (a very crispy head start), and I in turn would receive one hit and the pick in 1pkt. ( All the breaks, and then pick one after the break and put it in my rack and then go to eight). You can even have Lou as a coach, free to giggle at my misuse of maximum eng and periodic, unnecessary butt squeezes.


the Beard

[SJDinPHX]

Since everyone knows that a spot in bank pool is much stronger than 1pkt (eight and out in 1pkt is way more prevalent ocurrence than banks), I would suggest a spot of one ball in bank pool , 8 to 7 (a very crispy head start), and I in turn would receive one hit and the pick in 1pkt. ( All the breaks, and then pick one after the break and put it in my rack and then go to eight). You can even have Lou as a coach, free to giggle at my misuse of maximum eng and periodic, unnecessary butt squeezes.


the Beard

Freddy,

Your generosity is exceded only by your lack of humility.
Why would you attempt to foist your nemesis (Lou) on me as a coach.
Are you not aware that I have access to a long list of player's (considerably more knowledgeable than Mr. Figeroua.) ready and eager to participate on my behalf.

A partial list would be a few names you may recognize; Ronnie Allen, Ed Kelly, Scott Frost, to name a few, who would love to see the Beard go down in flames.

The only thing is, none of these "shortstops" would be of any help at all playing Bank pool, because they probably care for that game even less than I do.

Perchance we could dispense with the banks, and go straight to a man's game (1P). I will allow you the greatest one pocket mind in the universe, ( in youse guy's humble opinion) to act as your coach. I will let my advisor's determine how much (if any) weight should be given up.

Dick <--- doubts this game will ever materialze, but it is fun to woof at each other. ;) (Also I hope I haven't awakened a sleeping giant)

[fred bentivegna]

Freddy,

Your generosity is exceded only by your lack of humility.
Why would you attempt to foist your nemesis (Lou) on me as a coach.
Are you not aware that I have access to a long list of player's (considerably more knowledgeable than Mr. Figueroa.) ready and eager to participate on my behalf.

A partial list would be a few names you may recognize; Ronnie Allen, Ed Kelly, Scott Frost, to name a few, who would love to see the Beard go down in flames.

The only thing is, none of these "shortstops" would be of any help at all playing Bank pool, because they probably care for that game even less than I do.

Perchance we could dispense with the banks, and go straight to a man's game (1P). I will allow you the greatest one pocket mind (in his and your humble opinions) to act as your coach, and I will let my advisor's determine how much (if any) weight should be given up.

Dick <--- doubts this game will ever materialze, but it is fun to woof at each other. ;) (Also I hope I haven't awakened a sleeping giant)


As arrogant and unhumble as I am about bank strategy and knowledge, I am only a teensy bit less so about 1 pkt shots, moves, and strategies. I have become a coward and a beggar in my late years only due to lack of executional skills, not brain power. However, I would accept the only guy that I would probably listen to as a coach (Artie "Spelling" B.)

Fortunately for me, those particular guys you mentioned, aside from Frost whom I have never played, I have had an inordinate amount of success against. Inordinate to mean, that unlike the rest of the world, I have actually beat those birds a few times, so the fear and intimidation factor will have no bearing here. Sphincter shrinkage may be possible in your case, however.

the Beard

[SJDinPHX]

As arrogant and unhumble as I am about bank strategy and knowledge, I am only a teensy bit less so about 1 pkt shots, moves, and strategies. I have become a coward and a beggar in my late years only due to lack of executional skills, not brain power. However, I would accept the only guy that I would probably listen to as a coach (Artie "Spelling" B.)

Fortunately for me, those particular guys you mentioned, aside from Frost whom I have never played, I have had an inordinate amount of success against. Inordinate to mean, that unlike the rest of the world, I have actually beat those birds a few times, so the fear and intimidation factor will have no bearing here. Sphincter shrinkage may be possible in your case, however.

the Beard

My advisors have had trouble tracking your present game because you (like me) rarely play any more.

However, I will make an offer. You can get 8/7 (forget the pick B.S) mano a mano, with no coach.
Should you decide to avail yourself of a coach... if it's Artie B.... then you get 9/7 :eek:

The additional weight is because you and he will be at each others throats by the third shot. Talk about shrinkage. :eek:
My coach of choice, and I, on the other hand, will be sloppy drunk, and on cruise control by the third shot.

Dick <---will only play nosebleed high, races to 7. TAR could bill it as "The Battle of the One Pocket Titan" (note singular)

[Cowboy Dennis]

This shot came up in a relatively cheap set with a friend. I needed both balls in pocket A. I shot it as shown in the first diagram. But if I am in a serious game, I shoot it as shown in the second diagram. I don't mind banking the ball and going three rails for shapes. It's a standard 3-cushion shot. The bank is a little tougher but you are rewarded if you make it. Which shot do most of you shoot from here?

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3ABtf2LCui3POqn3Qcht2gCui2gKCi3gYNr3kOqn2kCeR1kbHc1kIeR1uBnP@

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3ABtf2LCui3POqn3Qcht2gCui2gPpi3gadc3kOqn2kBoR1kbQP1kMOi2kaqA4kbAS4kPXo3uCMM@


So I guess it's finally been decided which shot most of us would shoot. Glad I asked.

[SJDinPHX]

So I guess it's finally been decided which shot most of us would shoot. Glad I asked.

How rude of Freddy to hi-jack your thread ! I would demand an apology (or at least a free shirt.) :cool:

Dick <---would only shoot that shot at gunpoint. It looks to be two railable though.

[Cowboy Dennis]

How rude of Freddy to hi-jack your thread ! I would demand an apology (or at least a free shirt.) :cool:

Dick <---would only shoot that shot at gunpoint. It looks to be two railable though.


There you go again, trying to stir up the s..t. I don't need no stinkin' free shirt. I already bought 2 of them. Scares the hell out of the tellers when I wear it to the bank, especially with the dark sunglasses. I'm covered now in Detroit, Chicago and the Southwest. Do they play one-pocket in Boise, Idaho?

And I thought we decided the correct shot was?????????????????????????????

Ah, who cares.

Dennis<-----Now covered in three time zones, I think.

[Artie Bodendorfer]

So I guess it's finally been decided which shot most of us would shoot. Glad I asked. I kick at the one ball and bank the twelve. I figure to make the one ball. And we will both need one ball. And you have to play safe. Because my second shot I will bank the twelve ball. and Make it or it will bw close to my whole.

[SJDinPHX]

Dick,

There is no doubt in my mind that you could make this shot in under 100 attempts. In fact, I'd bet on it.

The other shot is similar. Just not from the cueball position shown.

Dennis

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2KYYl1PBXQ2fYYl2fcKg4fbdw3faWh1fevB1kBXQ2kWEs@

Dennis,

Just noticed this post, yes, this one I would bet on in only 2-3 shots (on a good table.) That is not the location of the 1 ball shot the Ghost was refering to.

Dick <--was exagerating about the 140 shots, even Freddy could make it in under 50. ;)

[Cowboy Dennis]

That is not the location of the 1 ball shot the Ghost was refering to.

;)


Dick,

I think this is closer to the shot. It can't be crossed, and it can't be pulled up short. I'm sure I'll be happy that I started this thread up again.

Some people still have not figured out that the question was not how to run out from here, (original layout), but which shot on the 12 ball they would shoot. I guess wasting their own time and effort is their business. But if a person can't even understand the question, how can he give an intelligent answer?

P.S. What was it you said the other day about resurrecting old threads without first being notified for editing purposes? Just kidding on that. Although I have looked at a couple of my posts in the past and thought, "what the hell was I thinking when I wrote that".

Dennis

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AaED4PUeB3UaED3UcAB4Ubqr3UbCI3UcII4Ucxp4kUeB3kWbD3kXAk3kajM@

[Cowboy Dennis]

Squeezing the butt will help a little.
the Beard


Freddy,

I've always wondered and finally thought I'd ask: Did Richie mind you doing this?

Dennis

[Cowboy Dennis]

Beardman,
PS Now that we are both dependent on walkers, I agree we should play next time we meet...before one of us succumbs to alzheimers or worse.
We can play any game you can name, for any amount you can count.
Possible exception "Banks", which I can not recall ever playing a game (for $$$) in my life. However, that being said, I would accept a slight handicap at banks, and would reciprocate at 1P.....flip it !!! :eek:


Ah yes, the genesis of the "original" challenge. Stumbled upon by me and shared with everyone.

[SJDinPHX]

Ah yes, the genesis of the "original" challenge. Stumbled upon by me and shared with everyone.

quote:
Originally Posted by SJDinPHX

Beardman,

Now that we are both dependent on walkers, I agree we should play next time we meet...before one of us succumbs to alzheimers or worse.
We can play any game you can name, for any amount you can count.
Possible exception "Banks", which I can not recall ever playing a game (for $$$) in my life. However, that being said, I would accept a slight handicap at banks, and would reciprocate at 1P.....flip it !!! [/QUOTE]



Good find, Dennis,

That was the ORIGINAL, semi-jocular challenge I hurled back at the Beardman, after his semi-jocular bank pool challenge, to me.
Seems like long ago...SOME, may have forgotten ?

We could have had several days of fun with that, except certain other parties interjected, (very agressively I might add) which led to a whole slew of other challenges. Some by me, some by them,...and, "warning", I have learned how to quote them all !

Among them, were..."A Drinking contest"...various "Marathon Duels"... a "3-Cushion Billiards challenge", (do they still play that game?)... and, "5 X 10 vs. 4 1/2 by 9 match-ups". It got pretty far afield.
I'm surprised there were no pinochle or gin challenges ! (I would have played some head-up Hold'em..heh,heh)

All this was interspersed, with numerous suggestions, from several "very knowledgable" poster's, (and even a few railbugs) trying to tell ME, how I should bet MY cash....and just how long or short the race, or ahead session should be. Sheesh, at my 3 WPM's, they wore me out responding.

Its all behind us now, but it was fun at times, quite aggravating at others. But, who knows, someone may actually play something, some day....as a result of it.

I know John H. is trying.

[lll]

^^^^^^Seems like long ago... time does fly when you are having fun:rolleyes: :cool:

[fred bentivegna]

Freddy,

I've always wondered and finally thought I'd ask: Did Richie mind you doing this?

Dennis

Richie is a great player and a good sport. He has much gamble and a big heart. Unfortunately for him, in tournaments I have pounded on him. Once in DCC I was playing Richie in the bank tourney. I musta made 5 or 6 TV banks on him but the crowd payed no attn. All the cheers were for Truman playing Shannon. I kept trying and making more and more trick shots, still no response, only more cheers for Truman. I found out later what had happened. Truman was banking 3 racks and out on Shannon and had stolen all the crowd sweat. I cursed Truman out profusely for that. I accused him of doing it on purpose just to slight me. I was even in with Cardone (when he could play) when he gave Richie 10 to 8 in his own joint and Billy robbed him. An incredible game. If you beat Richie, he just pays off and racks 'em up for another game.

Beard

[CaliRed]

Beardman,

Now that we are both dependent on walkers, I agree we should play next time we meet...before one of us succumbs to alzheimers or worse.
We can play any game you can name, for any amount you can count.
Possible exception "Banks", which I can not recall ever playing a game (for $$$) in my life. However, that being said, I would accept a slight handicap at banks, and would reciprocate at 1P.....flip it !!!



Good find, Dennis,

That was the ORIGINAL, semi-jocular challenge I hurled back at the Beardman, after his semi-jocular bank pool challenge, to me.
Seems like long ago...SOME, may have forgotten ?

We could have had several days of fun with that, except certain other parties interjected, (very agressively I might add) which led to a whole slew of other challenges. Some by me, some by them,...and, "warning", I have learned how to quote them all !

Among them, were..."A Drinking contest"...various "Marathon Duels"... a "3-Cushion Billiards challenge", (do they still play that game?)... and, "5 X 10 vs. 4 1/2 by 9 match-ups". It got pretty far afield.
I'm surprised there were no pinochle or gin challenges ! (I would have played some head-up Hold'em..heh,heh)

All this was interspersed, with numerous suggestions, from several "very knowledgable" poster's, (and even a few railbugs) trying to tell ME, how I should bet MY cash....and just how long or short the race, or ahead session should be. Sheesh, at my 3 WPM's, they wore me out responding.

Its all behind us now, but it was fun at times, quite aggravating at others. But, who knows, someone may actually play something, some day....as a result of it.

I know John H. is trying.

Your almost there, Dick..

Remember you have (quote=Username) at the very beginning and (/quote) at the end. Replace the () with brackets []. I had to use the () so it would show up in this post.

I noticed at the end you had the / in the wrong place Should have been at the front of quote

[Cowboy Dennis]

Richie is a great player and a good sport. He has much gamble and a big heart. If you beat Richie, he just pays off and racks 'em up for another game.

Beard


Richie definitely plays well and gambles as good as anyone. And his heart is unquestionably big. I learned quite a bit from him the several times we played. His endgame with one or two balls on the table is flawless.