Billy vs Van Boening

[NH Steve]

So, I was hearing that Billy played van Boening 1 pocket, with Billy getting the "hit and one pick". As I understand that, that means Billy is breaking every game, and gets to "pick" up one ball. And was Billy also keeping that ball, thus essentially getting an 8-7 spot on the count, as well, or was the picked ball being spotted?

Either way, I am impressed that Shane had enough moving skills to get out of the break often enough to survive that spot.

I am curious to hear what those who saw this, came away with impressions of the progression of Shane's One Pocket game.

Then, as I understand it, Billy got the same game from Chohan, and this time Billy came out on top. Now I would have placed Tony's game a notch or so above Shane's. Now I don't know what to think...

[Skin]

So, I was hearing that Billy played van Boening 1 pocket, with Billy getting the "hit and one pick". As I understand that, that means Billy is breaking every game, and gets to "pick" up one ball. And was Billy also keeping that ball, thus essentially getting an 8-7 spot on the count, as well, or was the picked ball being spotted?

Either way, I am impressed that Shane had enough moving skills to get out of the break often enough to survive that spot.

I am curious to hear what those who saw this, came away with impressions of the progression of Shane's One Pocket game.

Then, as I understand it, Billy got the same game from Chohan, and this time Billy came out on top. Now I would have placed Tony's game a notch or so above Shane's. Now I don't know what to think...

All of that, Steve, and also consider that Schmidt got through Frost and O. Domiquez to get Owen, losing only 3-2 in that one. I think Schmidt's game is for real and will only get better. There may be a "chaging of the guard" going on here, huh?

Skin

[gulfportdoc]

So, I was hearing that Billy played van Boening 1 pocket, with Billy getting the "hit and one pick". As I understand that, that means Billy is breaking every game, and gets to "pick" up one ball. And was Billy also keeping that ball, thus essentially getting an 8-7 spot on the count, as well, or was the picked ball being spotted?

Either way, I am impressed that Shane had enough moving skills to get out of the break often enough to survive that spot.

I am curious to hear what those who saw this, came away with impressions of the progression of Shane's One Pocket game.

Then, as I understand it, Billy got the same game from Chohan, and this time Billy came out on top. Now I would have placed Tony's game a notch or so above Shane's. Now I don't know what to think...
I watched only the first game of Billy/Shane. I'm guessing that "hit & a pick" is worth 3-4 balls, which is not enough for Billy against SVB. Billly just stood there shaking his head and joking with the crowd at some of Shane's outs.

If Shane were ever to set his sights on mastering 1P, he would quickly jettison to the very top. As he broadens his 9-ball "Jones", he'll quickly grasp the intracacies of 1P. If he would get lessons from Billy, Artie, or Freddy, he'd be beating everyone next month!

Chohan is out of sorts at this time, for obvious reasons. Billy just flat put a whooping on him. It only took 5 hours total time for BOTH 5 ahead sets-- Billy/Shane, Billy/Chohan inclusive.

Doc

[fred bentivegna]

So, I was hearing that Billy played van Boening 1 pocket, with Billy getting the "hit and one pick". As I understand that, that means Billy is breaking every game, and gets to "pick" up one ball. And was Billy also keeping that ball, thus essentially getting an 8-7 spot on the count, as well, or was the picked ball being spotted?

Either way, I am impressed that Shane had enough moving skills to get out of the break often enough to survive that spot.

I am curious to hear what those who saw this, came away with impressions of the progression of Shane's One Pocket game.

Then, as I understand it, Billy got the same game from Chohan, and this time Billy came out on top. Now I would have placed Tony's game a notch or so above Shane's. Now I don't know what to think...

The term One hit and the pick always means only one thing. Break the balls every game, pick a ball after the break, put it in your rack and go to eight from there. However, if you make a ball on the break you make your pick at the END of that inning. The game is a little stronger than 8 to 6 and the break. I quit handing out that game 30 years ago. Rather hand out 9 to 6or 10 to 7.

Beard

[wincardona]

The term One hit and the pick always means only one thing. Break the balls every game, pick a ball after the break, put it in your rack and go to eight from there. However, if you make a ball on the break you make your pick at the END of that inning. The game is a little stronger than 8 to 6 and the break. I quit handing out that game 30 years ago. Rather hand out 9 to 6or 10 to 7.

Beard


I've played a lot of top players with one hit and the pick, and imo I would rather have 8 to 6 and the break. Another thing about the hit and pick game, if the balls don't open up I would much rather have 9 to 6 and 10 to 7. I believe that the hit and the pick is a little stronger than 10 to 7, but not much. I definetly would take 9 to 6 over the hit and pick. This assessment is based on playing top players, they seem to get out of the brake much easier than others, particularly when the balls don't open up well breaking them.

[TWO PICKS]

Billy I am a weak player and I was aka The Pick. I have changed my aka to Two Picks. If they keep beating on me I will come up with something else.

[lll]

Billy I am a weak player and I was aka The Pick. I have changed my aka to Two Picks. If they keep beating on me I will come up with something else.
maybe 3 picks:D (jk)

[Artie Bodendorfer]

I've played a lot of top players with one hit and the pick, and imo I would rather have 8 to 6 and the break. Another thing about the hit and pick game, if the balls don't open up I would much rather have 9 to 6 and 10 to 7. I believe that the hit and the pick is a little stronger than 10 to 7, but not much. I definetly would take 9 to 6 over the hit and pick. This assessment is based on playing top players, they seem to get out of the brake much easier than others, particularly when the balls don't open up well breaking them. I watched billy play and one hit and the pick did not help him. He broke the balls poorly every time and the balls did not open up. And he played at night and it was way colder at night then in the day time. And the balls were like rocks at night time. I guee nobody seen it but me. But Billt new the balls were not breacking up. And Even with Frost And the cleaned the balls and tried everything but nothing worked. And A poor breack helps the next shooter. And he takes control off the game with a poor brack. But Again people dont realy look at that. If you dont breack the balls good then you are helping your oppnent and its like playing him even or a poor brack can be like you are spotting him. But thats what happened the airconditioning was very cold at night and the didnt even need it. But when Billy brocke the balls two or three balls came loose. And it was no problem getting out ove the brack. The poor bracks made it impossable for Billy to win. And it made the other player look great. And the way billy brock he would have been better off getting 9to6 ot 10 to 7 but thats playing resulte. BUt the breack was realy hurting Billys game and it aggrevated him. But nothing changed. And in the day time he was breacking the balls better. BUt I dont think he seeen it. If he would have got two hit and the pick it would have been like gitting 8 to 6. Because the breack hurt him it did not help him. And thats what happened. And Shan played good also. Because A poor breack gives a great player confedence. And Billy never over came the poor breacks. That just showes you that the breack can work against you too. And Billy was never in the game. And the more they played the more aggrevated Billy got. Because he didnt breack the balls good. But the cold airconditioning had a lot to do with it. Maybe two hit and the pick will give Billy a better chance to win. Or 11 to 7 but he needs a better game whatever he does. And he is intitled to a better game the way Shan beat him. BUt thats what happened in that game. What I noticed with all these players when the get a player when he is dead the dont shoot at the big money. The all want to quite after the one session. And the dont look to make the big score. And Billy was the only good action and the only one that would loose good money. Billy was all the action and the whole show. And you could not gamble with a better man. And Billy will play two and 3 sessions in a row. But these pool players are happy to win one thousand dollaers and quite to get thier end. Why would you not fire yopure winners at someone to make a score. And especialy when the are dead and aggrevated. I never seen anything like it. The could have doubled up with Billy and Billy would have played. All these players play run and scared. Its not like 30 years ago the players wanted to breack you. Know its one session and quite and then they say I will play you more tommarrow. And then tommarrow the wont even play the game the said they will play after beating you. Thats why pool is what it is. THe real gamblers are gone and barried. Or two old to play. The man Billy with all the money showed all the gamble. It should be the other way around the player with no money should shoot at the money but thats not how it was. I give Billy all the credit in the world. He is not afraid to play anyone. And he even lets the nits fire at him. Thats how much he injoys playing. Billy was all the action. And without Billy thier would have been nothing. But 50 or 100 dollaer games. Maybe some ove those players will show a little more heart. Scott and Cohan showed heart and gamble. But it was all one session action. But the did show a lot off heart. But again Billy was the whole gambling action. And the would only back the champions against Billy. At least the had enough smarts to shoot at the money. Hundreds off pool players and 3 or 4 gamblers. Thats pretty week. I hope the gambling picks up at the Dcc.

[fred bentivegna]

... What I noticed with all these players when the get a player when he is dead, they dont shoot at the big money. The all want to quit after the one session. And the dont look to make the big score. And Billy was the only good action and the only one that would lose good money. Billy was all the action and the whole show. And you could not gamble with a better man. And Billy will play 2 and 3 sessions in a row. But these pool players are happy to win one thousand dollars and quit to get their end. Why would you not fire your winners at someone to make a score. And especially when the are dead and aggravated. I never seen anything like it. The could have doubled up with Billy and Billy would have played. All these players play run and scared. Its not like 30 years ago the players wanted to break you. Now its one session and quit and then they say I will play you more tomorrow. And then tomorrow they won't even play the game they said they would play after beating you. That's why pool is what it is. THe real gamblers are gone and buried. Or too old to play. The man Billy with all the money, showed all the gamble. It should be the other way around. The player with no money should shoot at the money but thats not how it was. I give Billy all the credit in the world. He is not afraid to play anyone. And he even lets the nits fire at him. That's how much he enjoys playing. Billy was all the action. And without Billy their would have been nothing but 50 or 100 dollar games. Maybe some of those players will show a little more heart. Scott and Chohan showed heart and gamble. But it was all one session action. But they did show a lot of heart. But again Billy was the whole gambling action. And the would only back the champions against Billy. At least the had enough smarts to shoot at the money. Hundreds of pool players and 3 or 4 gamblers. Thats pretty weak. I hope the gambling picks up at the DCC.

What Artie is saying in a shortened version, is that when we were playing we wanted to win the other guy's shoes and socks, and when we had somebody down we went for his throat. Classic example: Bugs was playing Steve Mizerak in Mizerak's basement. They started out even, then Bugs gave him 9 to 8, then Bugs increased it to 8 to 7. Finally, after further drubbings Miz said he would only play more if he got 9 to 7! One of the guys with Bugs, Alphonse Daniels, objected vehemently. "You know you cant give this man 2 balls! He's the present world's straight pool champ!" Bugs covered his mouth, whispered conspiratorially to Alphonse, "Shit, Al, the man is dead!", and went on to break Steve at 9 to 7.

the Beard
(Artie's edit, by the Beard)

[SJDinPHX]

What Artie is saying in a shortened version, is that when we were playing we wanted to win the other guy's shoes and socks, and when we had somebody down we went for his throat. Classic example: Bugs was playing Steve Mizerak in Mizerak's basement. They started out even, then Bugs gave him 9 to 8, then Bugs increased it to 8 to 7. Finally, after further drubbings Miz said he would only play more if he got 9 to 7! One of the guys with Bugs, Alphonse Daniels, objected vehemently. "You know you cant give this man 2 balls! He's the present world's straight pool champ!" Bugs covered his mouth, whispered conspiratorially to Alphonse, "Shit, Al, the man is dead!", and went on to break Steve at 9 to 7.

the Beard
(Artie's edit, by the Beard)

Beardmonster,

Finally a rare accord, of sorts...

Back in the day, when two REAL gambling pool player's locked horns, in a game they both liked...it was not over until one ran out of cash, and pink slips (for cars) were put up... and somebody walked home on a wobbly walking stick.(been there,done that, a time or two)
Can't even remember how many car's I've played for, but I do know, I rarely ran out of cash.. :cool:

If I can use Freddie's podium for a moment, I won no less than five car's from the Witchita crowd (Greg Stevens and Donny C. (it helped that Donny owned a car lot)
They were all worth the air fare, to have wifey fly up from Dallas, and drive one home.

Today's crop of "gambler's", cannot even relate to that....Do we miss those days...or what ?

[Cowboy Dennis]

Finally an accord of sorts.
Back in the day, when two REAL gambling pool player's locked horns, in a game they both liked...it was not over until one ran out of cash, and pink slips (for cars) were put up... and somebody walked home on a wobbly walking stick.

Today's crop, can't relate to that....Do we miss those days...or what ?


Lest everyone think that all the stories they read are true, (about playing till they dropped), let me tell you a story of a match I watched myself. And if I tell it incorrectly the player still with us can correct my version.

I'm not sure of the year but I think it was 95 or 96. Somewhere in that time frame. Maybe a little earlier. At Bogarts Billiard Cafe in Livonia, Mich., Bugs was matched up with Billy Incardona playing one-pocket. I think they were racing to 6 for $5000 the way I remember it.

It was a good match to watch as I recall. I'd never seen Bugs play before and hadn't seen BI either.

Bugs won the first set and there was talk of a second set. But Bugs himself put the kabosh on a second set. They did agree to play again the next night though. (Don't know if that happened). Naive as I was, I asked a friend why Bugs would not just keep playing right then. He was hittin' them good and looked to have the best of it. He explained that if they played a second set and Bugs lost he would be even on the cash. But if he came back the next night and played, he would have his own cash locked up(in his pocket) and be playing on his backers cash.

I had never thought of things like that as I always bet my own.

So let's not act like the old days were when players played till they dropped. They did not. And Bugs, at least on this night, didn't either.

Billy Incardona can correct me if I'm wrong. My dates may be off and the bet and game may be off. But the fact that Bugs refused to play a second set after winning the first is not to be argued. Unless BI knows facts that I don't.

Dennis

[SJDinPHX]

Lest everyone think that all the stories they read are true, (about playing till they dropped), let me tell you a story of a match I watched myself. And if I tell it incorrectly the player still with us can correct my version.

I'm not sure of the year but I think it was 95 or 96. Somewhere in that time frame. Maybe a little earlier. At Bogarts Billiard Cafe in Livonia, Mich., Bugs was matched up with Billy Incardona playing one-pocket. I think they were racing to 6 for $5000 the way I remember it.

It was a good match to watch as I recall. I'd never seen Bugs play before and hadn't seen BI either.

Bugs won the first set and there was talk of a second set. But Bugs himself put the kabosh on a second set. They did agree to play again the next night though. (Don't know if that happened). Naive as I was, I asked a friend why Bugs would not just keep playing right then. He was hittin' them good and looked to have the best of it. He explained that if they played a second set and Bugs lost he would be even on the cash. But if he came back the next night and played, he would have his own cash locked up(in his pocket) and be playing on his backers cash.

I had never thought of things like that as I always bet my own.

So let's not act like the old days were when players played till they dropped. They did not. And Bugs, at least on this night, didn't either.

Billy Incardona can correct me if I'm wrong. My dates may be off and the bet and game may be off. But the fact that Bugs refused to play a second set after winning the first is not to be argued. Unless BI knows facts that I don't.

Dennis

RBL,

Not disputing your viewpoint (or your recall) at all. I can believe it happened pretty much as you described it.

I was referencing a scenario, where two "gambling" pool player's.. betting 'their own", or sometimes starting out with a stakehorse, and winding up betting their own, (or their own car)....when the horse got cold feet.

What you described happened quite often,... RA was a master at that move.

[Cowboy Dennis]

RBL,

Not disputing your viewpoint (or your recall) at all...but I was referencing two "gambling" pool player's.. betting 'their own", or sometimes starting out with a stakehorse, and winding up betting their own (or their own car) when the horse got cold feet.

What you described happened often,... RA was a master at that move.


Sorry Dick but I thought you were supporting the two posts previous to yours. By FB and AB. My mistake. And you also edited after I was typing my own post. You devil. I do understand the difference between as you say "two gambling pool-players" "betting their own" and the rest of the players I've seen. Didn't mean to put you with that crowd in any way. I just meant to point out that some of the greatest players and biggest gamblers(on backers cash) also put financial realities ahead of all-out gambling till they dropped.

Deek

[SJDinPHX]

Sorry Dick but I thought you were supporting the two posts previous to yours. By FB and AB. My mistake. And you also edited after I was typing my own post. You devil. I do understand the difference between as you say "two gambling pool-players" "betting their own" and the rest of the players I've seen. Didn't mean to put you with that crowd in any way. I just meant to point out that some of the greatest players and biggest gamblers(on backers cash) also put financial realities ahead of all-out gambling till they dropped.

Deek

No apology needed...unless you continue to violate the "30 minute rule" :cool: (I cannot remember all my lies at once, I need time)

PS..Like Freddy does, (sometimes) I try to tell stories where at least one principal is still above ground for verification,
Donny C. (can't remember his last name) is still alive and well, living in Scottsdale...had a drink with him a short time back. (I bought)
We had a great "war story" session...life is good !

[NH Steve]

As I understand it, by the mid 90's that was when Bugs started to show the effects of diabetes. I saw him play Grady after hours at one of Strawberry's tournaments in '91 or '92. As I recall that time they played more than one set. for what its worth...
Steve <-- a Bugs fan

[fred bentivegna]

Lest everyone think that all the stories they read are true, (about playing till they dropped), let me tell you a story of a match I watched myself. And if I tell it incorrectly the player still with us can correct my version.

I'm not sure of the year but I think it was 95 or 96. Somewhere in that time frame. Maybe a little earlier. At Bogarts Billiard Cafe in Livonia, Mich., Bugs was matched up with Billy Incardona playing one-pocket. I think they were racing to 6 for $5000 the way I remember it.

It was a good match to watch as I recall. I'd never seen Bugs play before and hadn't seen BI either.

Bugs won the first set and there was talk of a second set. But Bugs himself put the kabosh on a second set. They did agree to play again the next night though. (Don't know if that happened). Naive as I was, I asked a friend why Bugs would not just keep playing right then. He was hittin' them good and looked to have the best of it. He explained that if they played a second set and Bugs lost he would be even on the cash. But if he came back the next night and played, he would have his own cash locked up(in his pocket) and be playing on his backers cash.

I had never thought of things like that as I always bet my own.

So let's not act like the old days were when players played till they dropped. They did not. And Bugs, at least on this night, didn't either.

Billy Incardona can correct me if I'm wrong. My dates may be off and the bet and game may be off. But the fact that Bugs refused to play a second set after winning the first is not to be argued. Unless BI knows facts that I don't.

Dennis

I knew Bugs as well as anybody, and I was as familiar with his M.O. as one could be. The guy that described Bug's reason for quitting had part of Bug's M.O. right. If Bugs won one night, his end would not show up for the next night's festivities. He would usually send it right home or get a different set of backers. When he was on the road he would often return home prematurely after a successful run of winning. Because after a certain point in the winnings he would have been expected to put up a part of the action, so he craftily locked his up and left town, often at a point where he could have won much more. To him that was a clever business ploy. Bugs did not play well on his own. He played me with his own, ONCE. We played dead even and I broke him. The next week he returned with backers and gave me 9 to 8 and 2 out of 3 breaks and broke me. HOWEVER, I never seen him have enough money on the opening night of his action. To win a set and want to go home was not in his repertoire. He was a cold blooded killer, and went for the finish when he smelled blood. Most of the time he would try to double up and force a conclusion.
As for his game with Billy, Bugs did have a sort of history with Billy. Billy often outmanaged and jerked Bugs around. Bugs had a bad record with Billy. That may have had something to do with Bugs decision to quit after 1 set. He may have thought he was paying Billy back and wanted to aggravate him a little. But perish the thought that Bugs was comfortable with his opponent going home with money in his pocket.

the Beard
I have another related story illustrating Bugs' finishing penchant, whereby Bugs even went broke to me trying to win my last $17 dollars. We were playing $30 a game and I only had $77. He won the first 2 games and when I told him I only had $17 left, he said "Bet it."
I won that game and he doubled up every game, and I won every game until he was busted. End of story: he wound up with $19 left and I told him to bet it, and was lucky enough to win that game too. However, I had no intention of going one inch past the $19 if I happened to lose it. I was never as dumb as the San Man thinks I am.

[SJDinPHX]

I was never as dumb as the San Man thinks I am.

Up for major conjecture ! The jury is still out.. :) <---note smiley.

[SJDinPHX]

All of that, Steve, and also consider that Schmidt got through Frost and O. Domiquez to get Owen, losing only 3-2 in that one. I think Schmidt's game is for real and will only get better. There may be a "chaging of the guard" going on here, huh?

Skin


Skin, I disagree very strongly with your take on it. I have watched way too many of his matches to form an opinion like yours.

Schmidt is very lacking in imagination at very key points in ANY 1P game. He wins a most of 1P matches, purely by his skill at running balls, and I give him credit for that. A Win,...is a Win.
But he has not even yet learned... what his opponent will do back to him, when he makes a simple duck.

He is still a few balls (at least)...below Gabe or Frost, at 1P... Short races tell a very skewed story, and he knows the better player's are uncomfortable with that, and it has worked to his advantage at times (example DCC '09)

He may improve, as he gets older. (and the pockets get smaller) and he learns to LIKE the game. (quite a ways down the road)

He is NOT going to beat any of those top guys for the cash...YET. Or rarely even in a short race tournament match.

He will rarely, if ever, beat a good 1P player to the shot, especially in an uptable close game....JMHO

PS.. I am not a Schmidt fan, but I assure you there is some envy, but NO jealousy involved...I wish I had, had his pool skills in my prime. "I coulda been a (real) contendah". John is just a little too much of an "apple polisher" for my tastes. (Don't make him a bad guy though)

[Cowboy Dennis]

I have another related story illustrating Bugs' finishing penchant, whereby Bugs even went broke to me trying to win my last $17 dollars. We were playing $30 a game and I only had $77. He won the first 2 games and when I told him I only had $17 left, he said "Bet it."
I won that game and he doubled up every game, and I won every game until he was busted. End of story: he wound up with $19 left and I told him to bet it, and was lucky enough to win that game too. However, I had no intention of going one inch past the $19 if I happened to lose it. I was never as dumb as the San Man thinks I am.


This story reminds me of one day (night) out at the Rack. There wasn't anybody in the joint except for me and maybe a friend and my brother. And Cornbread and Horseface Harry. Of course the counterman was there, maybe "Poochie".

Red and Harry started playing one-pocket on the snooker table with Red giving Harry 10-8. That was their lifetime game on a pool table or snooker table. They were betting $25 a game as I recall but it may have been $50. Either way, it was basically killing time even though neither of them wanted to lose. After all, they were betting their own.

After a couple of hours Red had Harry stuck four or five games. I believe that Red was getting ready to break and Harry was racking the balls. Red must have noticed something about Harry's demeanor because all of a sudden he said loudly "I smell a rat". Harry looked up and said "what do you mean". Red said "how much money you got left?". Harry insisted he had enough and Red kept inquiring until he finally made Harry show it to him. Harry finally emptied out his pockets and he had about 1/3 of what he needed to play the next game. Cornbread said "I want it". He broke the balls and won the game and their match ended. But I'll never forget Red saying "I want it" after all the stalling around by Horse. And there is no doubt in my mind that if Harry had won that game, Red would have kept playing. After all, that's why we were there.

Dennis

[Cowboy Dennis]

I knew Bugs as well as anybody, and I was as familiar with his M.O. as one could be. The guy that described Bug's reason for quitting had part of Bug's M.O. right. If Bugs won one night, his end would not show up for the next night's festivities. He would usually send it right home or get a different set of backers. When he was on the road he would often return home prematurely after a successful run of winning. Because after a certain point in the winnings he would have been expected to put up a part of the action, so he craftily locked his up and left town, often at a point where he could have won much more. To him that was a clever business ploy. Bugs did not play well on his own. He played me with his own, ONCE. We played dead even and I broke him. The next week he returned with backers and gave me 9 to 8 and 2 out of 3 breaks and broke me. HOWEVER, I never seen him have enough money on the opening night of his action. To win a set and want to go home was not in his repertoire. He was a cold blooded killer, and went for the finish when he smelled blood. Most of the time he would try to double up and force a conclusion.
As for his game with Billy, Bugs did have a sort of history with Billy. Billy often outmanaged and jerked Bugs around. Bugs had a bad record with Billy. That may have had something to do with Bugs decision to quit after 1 set. He may have thought he was paying Billy back and wanted to aggravate him a little. But perish the thought that Bugs was comfortable with his opponent going home with money in his pocket.

the Beard


Freddy,

I am seriously confused. Your post title is "Not the Bugs I Knew" and then you go on to tell of three reasons why Bugs may have quit winner that night. Including jerking Billy around. Which means that it is the Bugs that you knew. It's no disgrace to send money home to the wife and kids. No one has to defend that now that he's gone. But it's either one way or the other. It cannot be both. I implied no motive for his actions other than what someone told me was logical. He won the first set and quit even though his backer and Billy wanted to play, as I recall. That's all.

Dennis

[SJDinPHX]

This story reminds me of one day (night) out at the Rack. There wasn't anybody in the joint except for me and maybe a friend and my brother. And Cornbread and Horseface Harry. Of course the counterman was there, maybe "Poochie".

Red and Harry started playing one-pocket on the snooker table with Red giving Harry 10-8. That was their lifetime game on a pool table or snooker table. They were betting $25 a game as I recall but it may have been $50. Either way, it was basically killing time even though neither of them wanted to lose. After all, they were betting their own.

After a couple of hours Red had Harry stuck four or five games. I believe that Red was getting ready to break and Harry was racking the balls. Red must have noticed something about Harry's demeanor because all of a sudden he said loudly "I smell a rat". Harry looked up and said "what do you mean". Red said "how much money you got left?". Harry insisted he had enough and Red kept inquiring until he finally made Harry show it to him. Harry finally emptied out his pockets and he had about 1/3 of what he needed to play the next game. Cornbread said "I want it". He broke the balls and won the game and their match ended. But I'll never forget Red saying "I want it" after all the stalling around by Horse. And there is no doubt in my mind that if Harry had won that game, Red would have kept playing. After all, that's why we were there.

Dennis

Good story Dennis, I can sure relate to that. Many times I have let a guy "short shot" me, (lower the bet when I had him almost broke)
It preys on your mind, and can be a real distraction in your head...especially if you lose a few games in a row.. :eek:

As I matured, I found that I felt more comfortable in making a guy agree to at least double up, if I lost the first "short bet" game.
I rarely lost under those conditions.

PS..Isn't this more fun, than talking about your stupid, fat, rust belt girls ? :D

[Cowboy Dennis]

Good story Dennis, I can sure relate to that. Many times I have let a guy "short shot" me, (lower the bet when I had him almost broke)
It preys on your mind, and can be a real distraction in your head...especially if you lose a few games in a row.. :eek:

As I matured, I found that I felt more comfortable in making a guy agree to at least double up, if I lost the first "short bet" game.
I rarely lost under those conditions.

PS..Isn't this more fun, than talking about your stupid, fat, rust belt girls ? :D


Dick,

I try to learn important lessons in a poolroom and this leads to one of the most important ones that I ever learned. I was playing "Black Dennis" at the Cue Corners private club in Romulus, Mich. (early 80's). He and I were dead even at one-pocket and nine-ball. He taught me how to gamble and bet my cash as I've stated previously.

Any night either one of us could win. This particular night I had him stuck $200-$300 playing 9-ball. I think we were playing for $20 a game. He finally quit the 9-ball game and said "let's play some 6-ball". I also let him jack the bet DOWN to $10 a game. I thought I would just finish him off and go home. That ain't the way it went. He won a few games(and got his confidence) and we jacked the bet to $20 again. Long story short, he won his money back and some of mine too.

After that night I never let anyone jack the bet down. And I also learned that 6 balls are easier to run than nine balls for the weaker player. Live and learn I guess.

Hey, no fair editing while I'm typing. And I could show you home videos of my so-called "stupid, fat, rust-belt girls" that would knock your socks off.

Deek

[SJDinPHX]

Dick,

I try to learn important lessons in a poolroom and this leads to one of the most important ones that I ever learned. I was playing "Black Dennis" at the Cue Corners private club in Romulus, Mich. (early 80's). He and I were dead even at one-pocket and nine-ball. He taught me how to gamble and bet my cash as I've stated previously.

Any night either one of us could win. This particular night I had him stuck $200-$300 playing 9-ball. I think we were playing for $20 a game. He finally quit the 9-ball game and said "let's play some 6-ball". I also let him jack the bet DOWN to $10 a game. I thought I would just finish him off and go home. That ain't the way it went. He won a few games(and got his confidence) and we jacked the bet to $20 again. Long story short, he won his money back and some of mine too.
After that night I never let anyone jack the bet down. And I also learned that 6 balls are easier to run than nine balls for the weaker player. Live and learn I guess.

Hey, no fair editing while I'm typing. And I could show you home videos of my so-called "stupid, fat, rust-belt girls" that would knock your socks off.

Deek

I don't know why, and there are no racial overtones, but I have never lost to a black pool player, and I've played some pretty good ones, over the years. ( am I starting to brag like Freddy...hey, this is fun !)

"Ove" course, I never played Marvin Henderson or Bug's, Marvin was a premier 1P player well before I ever took up the game, plus he was a likable guy, and we had some good talks before he moved back east. Also, I was never around Bug's (probably lucky for me)

The only real name black player I ever played quite a few times was JC. (Cannonball). He was a great guy, and we always got along good, but we would play each other on sight.

I remember giving him 9/8 one time (mid-60's) in Houston, and even though I was a "home town" boy then, the whole joint emptied out on Lefty. One of the best scores I ever made in Houston...Do you remember that session Rod ?

But then, I always knew I could beat anybody from Chicago, regardless of race, creed, or religion (especially Eye-talians) :D <---please note, Freddie.

PS. RBLI...I am going to eat now...it would be cruel of you, to show me any of your sexual "conquests". ( always remember...a cow is easier to sneak up on, than a mare.)...maybe you should try a fat "ewe".

[Artie Bodendorfer]

I knew Bugs as well as anybody, and I was as familiar with his M.O. as one could be. The guy that described Bug's reason for quitting had part of Bug's M.O. right. If Bugs won one night, his end would not show up for the next night's festivities. He would usually send it right home or get a different set of backers. When he was on the road he would often return home prematurely after a successful run of winning. Because after a certain point in the winnings he would have been expected to put up a part of the action, so he craftily locked his up and left town, often at a point where he could have won much more. To him that was a clever business ploy. Bugs did not play well on his own. He played me with his own, ONCE. We played dead even and I broke him. The next week he returned with backers and gave me 9 to 8 and 2 out of 3 breaks and broke me. HOWEVER, I never seen him have enough money on the opening night of his action. To win a set and want to go home was not in his repertoire. He was a cold blooded killer, and went for the finish when he smelled blood. Most of the time he would try to double up and force a conclusion.
As for his game with Billy, Bugs did have a sort of history with Billy. Billy often outmanaged and jerked Bugs around. Bugs had a bad record with Billy. That may have had something to do with Bugs decision to quit after 1 set. He may have thought he was paying Billy back and wanted to aggravate him a little. But perish the thought that Bugs was comfortable with his opponent going home with money in his pocket.

the Beard
I have another related story illustrating Bugs' finishing penchant, whereby Bugs even went broke to me trying to win my last $17 dollars. We were playing $30 a game and I only had $77. He won the first 2 games and when I told him I only had $17 left, he said "Bet it."
I won that game and he doubled up every game, and I won every game until he was busted. End of story: he wound up with $19 left and I told him to bet it, and was lucky enough to win that game too. However, I had no intention of going one inch past the $19 if I happened to lose it. I was never as dumb as the San Man thinks I am. I played Bugs one time I was two sets ahead and Bugs slaped the backer because he wouldnt give Bugs no more money to play me. And the guy told Bugs you cant beat that man. And I will give you money to play anybody but me. And that was it after houers Thier was me and Mike Oshea and Bugs and his crew. And I never had a agrument or discrepancey with Bugs. And we never even checked each others rack. He was one ove the best people you could play. And he would bet it all on one game. But I guess thats easier to do when you are getting backed. And then Get another backer. But He would play anybody. For whatever he could get.

[Cowboy Dennis]

But then, I always knew I could beat anybody from Chicago, regardless of race, creed, or religion (especially Eye-talians) :D <---please note, Freddie.




Boy, I sure hope that Freddy doesn't see this.

[Artie Bodendorfer]

Lest everyone think that all the stories they read are true, (about playing till they dropped), let me tell you a story of a match I watched myself. And if I tell it incorrectly the player still with us can correct my version.

I'm not sure of the year but I think it was 95 or 96. Somewhere in that time frame. Maybe a little earlier. At Bogarts Billiard Cafe in Livonia, Mich., Bugs was matched up with Billy Incardona playing one-pocket. I think they were racing to 6 for $5000 the way I remember it.

It was a good match to watch as I recall. I'd never seen Bugs play before and hadn't seen BI either.

Bugs won the first set and there was talk of a second set. But Bugs himself put the kabosh on a second set. They did agree to play again the next night though. (Don't know if that happened). Naive as I was, I asked a friend why Bugs would not just keep playing right then. He was hittin' them good and looked to have the best of it. He explained that if they played a second set and Bugs lost he would be even on the cash. But if he came back the next night and played, he would have his own cash locked up(in his pocket) and be playing on his backers cash.

I had never thought of things like that as I always bet my own.

So let's not act like the old days were when players played till they dropped. They did not. And Bugs, at least on this night, didn't either.

Billy Incardona can correct me if I'm wrong. My dates may be off and the bet and game may be off. But the fact that Bugs refused to play a second set after winning the first is not to be argued. Unless BI knows facts that I don't.

Dennis Pool players do funny things when they dont have a income. and if he needs the money bad enough for something. Why should he loose it back if he has the money. And if the player will play tommarow he wont hasve to bet his winnings. That makes sense to me. like to play people when thier dead and cant execuite no more. I try to breack them down completly. And get all the money. Its no picknick playing a player fresh. But it is a picknick playing a player when he is helpless. And So meny people quite and dont take off the score in that spot. I seen it with a young guy Billy played at Galveston. I even Said to Larry How can that guy not play Billy. And I made a bet for one baby dollaer that the player would not play Billy the next day. And Guess what he wouldnt play the next day and Billy was sure that he would play. And the player promised to play the next day and he lied and said he didnt say that and that was enough for BILLY. bUT i SEEN WRIGHT AWAY WHAT HE WAS. aND bILLY WOULD HAVE LOST BIG MONEY TO THE PLAYER. bUT HE DIDNT KNOW HOW TO TAKE OFF THE SCORE. kNOW HE IS HISTORY AND i DONT YTHINK bILLY WILL PLAY HIM UNLESS HE TAKES THE HEAT AND WANTS TO BEAT HIM. bUT HE COULD HAVE MADE A GOOD SCORE. He should have stayed home and not even played. Billy gave him a shot at him for big money and Billy couldnt have won a cracker. But that showes how smart they are. Bill had the money And he would have lost big money. And I dont think he could have won 2 thousand dollaers. I would never let someone like that take a shot at me without me being able to win something. But Billy was convenced that he would play the next day. And I was conviced he wouldnt play. And to lie on top ove it showes you what the guy realy was. But everybody doesnt see the same picture. Thats why some people are colored blind. But Billy Will gamble and he is the best man to play. If you want to win some money.

[fred bentivegna]

Freddy,

I am seriously confused. Your post title is "Not the Bugs I Knew" and then you go on to tell of three reasons why Bugs may have quit winner that night. Including jerking Billy around. Which means that it is the Bugs that you knew. It's no disgrace to send money home to the wife and kids. No one has to defend that now that he's gone. But it's either one way or the other. It cannot be both. I implied no motive for his actions other than what someone told me was logical. He won the first set and quit even though his backer and Billy wanted to play, as I recall. That's all.

Dennis

Dennis I had detected a tone (whether it was intended or not) in your original post that seemed to lean towards debunking my prev post that celebrated the old timers for their desire to go for the kill. That didnt make sense to me, after all, you spent much time around one of the all time assassins, Corn Bread. You cited one instance of exception with Bugs and Billy. My post was meant to concede that night to your observation, but to illuminate the position that that night was an exception, not the rule. There are always exceptions. Depending on the circumstances, on many occasions I have quit winner myself. I just wanted to make sure Bugs got the credit he surely earned for being a closer (most of the time).
Now, to seemingly invalidate much of what I put forth earlier, I will tell another tale of Bugs and I: We were playing on the South Side in his poolroom on 43rd st. He was spotting me one hit and the pick and I blew about 2k. I quit, but my nose was still open, and I said I would keep playing and take only 9 to 8 if he would come with me to Bensingers that night. I would have gotten Artie to open the joint up. He refused, and no amount of verbal abuse could get him to change his mind. I'll say it again, there are always exceptions.

Beard

[Cowboy Dennis]

Dennis I had detected a tone (whether it was intended or not) in your original post that seemed to lean towards debunking my prev post that celebrated the old timers for their desire to go for the kill. That didnt make sense to me, after all, you spent much time around one of the all time assassins, Corn Bread. You cited one instance of exception with Bugs and Billy. My post was meant to concede that night to your observation, but to illuminate the position that that night was an exception, not the rule. There are always exceptions. Depending on the circumstances, on many occasions I have quit winner myself. I just wanted to make sure Bugs got the credit he surely earned for being a closer (most of the time).
Now, to seemingly invalidate much of what I put forth earlier, I will tell another tale of Bugs and I: We were playing on the South Side in his poolroom on 43rd st. He was spotting me one hit and the pick and I blew about 2k. I quit, but my nose was still open, and I said I would keep playing and take only 9 to 8 if he would come with me to Bensingers that night. I would have gotten Artie to open the joint up. He refused, and no amount of verbal abuse could get him to change his mind. I'll say it again, there are always exceptions.

Beard


Freddy,

You are correct about my tone and it was intended. But not to knock the man (Bugs), just the idea that players stay till they drop. From all of the stories I've heard about Bugs he was a stay till the end guy.
And as Steve pointed out, his health was in question at the time. I'm sure this night was the exception and not the rule, as you say.

Being a guy who always bet my own I've never had to take backers into consideration. And I usually would be playing guys who bet their own.

Exception duly noted Freddy.

Dennis

[androd]

RBL,

Not disputing your viewpoint (or your recall) at all. I can believe it happened pretty much as you described it.

I was referencing a scenario, where two "gambling" pool player's.. betting 'their own", or sometimes starting out with a stakehorse, and winding up betting their own, (or their own car)....when the horse got cold feet.

What you described happened quite often,... RA was a master at that move.

SJD and DENNIS, In the 60's and well into the 70's in the south where they had all-nite rooms, it was considered bad (dangerous) form to quit before the game was over. I have played many 30-40 hr. sessions and one that lasted 70 hrs. It was proper ediquette to win all watches,ring, cues and sometimes cars, if the loser wanted to play. If you got broke on a weekend just get in your car and drive a couple hundred miles and get more money, when you got back everyone was still there and you were next in line to play.
Rod. < -----always a thru-ticket if you could beat me.

[SJDinPHX]

SJD and DENNIS, In the 60's and well into the 70's in the south where they had all-nite rooms, it was considered bad (dangerous) form to quit before the game was over. I have played many 30-40 hr. sessions and one that lasted 70 hrs. It was proper ediquette to win all watches,ring, cues and sometimes cars, if the loser wanted to play. If you got broke on a weekend just get in your car and drive a couple hundred miles and get more money, when you got back everyone was still there and you were next in line to play.
Rod. < -----always a thru-ticket if you could beat me.

Rod,

Remember Ray Humphreys ? For several years I played him at his joint, from Friday night, many times 'til sometime Sunday (or as long as his $$$ held out)...almost every week-end. Don't know how he kept that joint as long as he did.. He NEVER won! ...Even if he got ahead, he would invent a way to lose ALL his cash.

He would hustle the bars hard all week long, grind up a bankroll, and then go off to someone, (usually me)... all the money in the till, right down to the change in the coke machine. You didn't quit Ray til he was broke...He was a hoot wasn't he ?

For quite a while, when I first moved to Houston, the owner of the LeCue (Siegel) used to pay Red and I, $125 each, every week...not to play anywhere else in Houston... but the LeCue.
I lasted until I met Ray. He cost me that sweet gig...I could not afford to pass HIM up.

Dottie used to pick up Red and I's money from Siegel every Friday night, He got suspicious after about 3-4 months, of rarely seeing me in there on week-ends. Red hung in there, and milked it dry... Fun times.

PS. Ray now lives right up the street from Charlie Brown, in Henderson TX. He became a born again preacher. I think Woppie converted him. They live just a few blocks from each other, real close to CB. He sees them often.

Did you see Charlie at the GWC..? He was there for a few days. Did James Christopher make it there ? Should have PM'd most of this stuff, but couldn't stop, once I got started.

[androd]

Rod,

Remember Ray Humphreys ? For several years I played him at his joint, from Friday night, many times 'til sometime Sunday (or as long as his $$$ held out)...almost every week-end. Don't know how he kept that joint as long as he did.. He NEVER won! ...Even if he got ahead, he would invent a way to lose ALL his cash.

He would hustle the bars hard all week long, grind up a bankroll, and then go off to someone, (usually me)... all the money in the till, right down to the change in the coke machine. You didn't quit Ray til he was broke...He was a hoot wasn't he ?

For quite a while, when I first moved to Houston, the owner of the LeCue (Siegel) used to pay Red and I, $125 each, every week...not to play anywhere else in Houston... but the LeCue.
I lasted until I met Ray. He cost me that sweet gig...I could not afford to pass HIM up.

Dottie used to pick up Red and I's money from Siegel every Friday night, He got suspicious after about 3-4 months, of rarely seeing me in there on week-ends. Red hung in there, and milked it dry... Fun times.

PS. Ray now lives right up the street from Charlie Brown, in Henderson TX. He became a born again preacher. I think Woppie converted him. They live just a few blocks from each other, real close to CB. He sees them often.

Did you see Charlie at the GWC..? He was there for a few days. Did James Christopher make it there ? Should have PM'd most of this stuff, but couldn't stop, once I got started.

I did see Charlie, he looked great. He's probably the only guy ever staked me. I only stayed about 5-6 hrs. Pool tourneys bore me to tears, but it was great to see some of my old buddies. I got real lucky Jack Taylor gave me a hundred dollars ( hope he's not terminal or something) and RA didn't recognize me, is that lucky or what.
Rod. <-Watched Artie and John for a few hrs.
PS, Woppie's was the guy I had the 70 + hr. session with. I think I told you before I went to jail twice during that session.

[SJDinPHX]

I did see Charlie, he looked great. He's probably the only guy ever staked me. I only stayed about 5-6 hrs. Pool tourneys bore me to tears, but it was great to see some of my old buddies. I got real lucky Jack Taylor gave me a hundred dollars ( hope he's not terminal or something) and RA didn't recognize me, is that lucky or what.
Rod. <-Watched Artie and John for a few hrs.
PS, Woppie's was the guy I had the 70 + hr. session with. I think I told you before I went to jail twice during that session.

I'm the same way with pool tournaments...the shrink's have new words for it now...they call it A.D.D (Attention Deficit Disorder). :D
Sweating pool games, or even worse, DVD's of pool games...is much like watching paint dry.(can't even sweat 'em when I'm in)

Alfie and I were going to stay with Jack, had we gone. Just curious as to what % the $100 Jack gave you, was of his total indebtedness..:cool: Had RA recognized you, you MAY have broke even. (with the C-note from Jack) As RA's game has gone down...
his bite skills have improved beyond belief..:eek:

Woppie was a kick wasn't he. I used to send him into a strange joint 1/2 hr. ahead of me. He'd have everybody (male and female) so amped up...It would be easy to get $2 player's to bet $50. Road trips with him were real "TRIPS"

PS. Weren't you the one Woppie rolled safe on the 9 ball,(old rules) with BIH in the kitchen...rather than shoot a spot shot ?

[androd]

Just curious as to what % the $100 Jack gave you, was of his total indebtedness..:cool: Had RA recognized you, you MAY have broke even. (with the C-note from Jack) As RA's game has gone down...
his bite skills have improved beyond belief..:eek:

That would be as hard as you totaling RA's tab (only smaller ).RA looked like a giant pear, he's trying to let diabetes kill him, sad to say.


Woppie was a kick wasn't he. I used to send him into a strange joint 1/2 hr. ahead of me. He'd have everybody (male and female) so amped up...It would be easy to get $2 player's to bet $50. Road trips with him were real "TRIPS"


How did you get along with the lovely Betty ?


PS. Weren't you the one Woppie rolled safe on the 9 ball,(old rules) with BIH in the kitchen...rather than shoot a spot shot ?

No, I wouldn't ever forget that, I do remember hearing about it though. The spot shot advocates on here should have a good laugh about that one, although some of them couldn't have beat him playing one pocket.:D

[Artie Bodendorfer]

That would be as hard as you totaling RA's tab (only smaller ).RA looked like a giant pear, he's trying to let diabetes kill him, sad to say.



How did you get along with the lovely Betty ?



No, I wouldn't ever forget that, I do remember hearing about it though. The spot shot advocates on here should have a good laugh about that one, although some of them couldn't have beat him playing one pocket.:D I was with Ronnie yesterday. And we seen a guy drinking 4 beers at a time. So I started buying Ronnie two beers at a time. I told Ronnie he has to catch up with the guy drinking 4 beers at a time. BUt the guy was about 30 years old and in tip top shape. I told him is he getting in strock yet dringing. And he said a few more 4 beer rounds and he will be cool. Ronnie said when he was younger he would have spotted him the first 20 beers before they even started drinking. But ronnie was in good spirits and he was wright by the race book.. He still handles his drinking pretty good. And he probable spent more money drinking then his biggest pool match. But it was good to see him in good spirit. And he was telling all kinds off stories. And his stories are very interesting.He told me again. He watched me and Billy play partners against John. And he said he finaly seen me make one ball in three games. And then he said he never seen me or John run 4 balls playing one pocket. And I told him I thought we were playing two and stop. And he drank the whole beer down. But it was great seeing and talking to him. In the years he needs friends the most. But he is truly one off the greatest caracters in life.