What player player the best one pocket?

[Artie Bodendorfer]

I am not talking about the best player but who do you think played the game the best? And it does not have to be the best player shooter or banker. I am courious who people think who played the game the best?

[Artie Bodendorfer]

I am not talking about the best player but who do you think played the game the best? And it does not have to be the best player shooter or banker. I am courious who people think who played the game the best? WHAT PLAYER PLAYED THE GAME Off ONEPOCKET THE BEST?

[Matt_24]

I guess I was lucky because the first person I EVER saw play one pocket was NICK VARNER at JOBs in the early 90s, when I started playing pool. He was gambling with another pro and beating him senseless.

I like his style because he plays really tight but given opportunity he is so offensively powerful, he doesn't really miss any shots/banks.

So...Nick is my favorite one pocket player.

[lll]

i have not seen all the greats so i can not answer. listening to the stories it seem harold worst name always comes up from the cognescenti if not from the masses. if i had to make a best 1p player it would someone who could go 8 and out because of straight shooting and be able to squeeze and trap and outmaneuver evryone. but as or most important that player would be able to do either whenever they wanted and have a knack for picking the right time to be offensive or defensive.
since noone has come along that is so evenly blended to be the very best in offence and defence (as far as i know) each player has used whichever part of the blend was stronger to thier advantage. thus their playing style. so you have for example ronnie or efren or scott as examples of firepower outbalanceing their moving and players like you artie who acknowledge they arent firepower shooters but are supreme movers.
like chocolate and vanilla people will have a favorite flavor
the shooters will say one person was the "best of all time" the movers will say another was the "best of all time". most would say efren has the most talent of all time(maybe thats a stretch but he does seem to be in aclass by himself) even if he is not the best player of all time.
when you ask the question who PLAYED the best one ppocket i think it goes beyond who shot the best or who understood the best or who played defense the best it comes down to in my opinion
who won the most playing even!!!! because they had to have been the best with the intangibles of heart ,courage , nerves of steel , imagination etc because many had great talent but its the intangibles that separates the winner at that level. because at that level evryone is really good.
so after all that who played the best one pocket . i dont know.

[lll]

while im on a roll i want to add one more thing. i understand artie that to you 1p is like chess. you have to think, plan several moves ahead,know when to shoot for your hole and when to better position the balls, know what will be available and unavailable to your opponent when you leave the table(thanks d.c. buck for that quote) etc. and i have to agree with you that to me that style is the way 1p should be played.
BUT if someone is supreme in another style ie shoots the lights out you cant fault them for excelling in a less than "ideal" style. im sure there are several athletes in their respective halls of fame and were champions because they did things different than the conventional way. because it wasnt cthe conventional wau doesnt make ir wrong. i could be wrond ,this is just my humble opinion.
the concept its my way is the only way does not allow for the exception even if its the right way 99%of the time.

[lll]

in tennis rafael nadal was a born righty. his uncle taught him to play lefty. this was not the "right "way to coach. nadal is considered one of the greatest clay court tennis players of all time a former #1 and currently #2.

[NH Steve]

First hand that I have seen myself, I only go back to about 1990. That rules out me being able to fully judge the early players, other than what other early players have said. I do have a lot of conversation time with old-time players because of my interviews, so I have opinions about the older guys, even if I didn't see them in their prime. Based on that, this is what I come up with for the older players:

1. Ronnie for offensive One Pocket, with Bugs and Eddie Taylor right there, too, because of their banking, and Squirrel. (Efren for modern players, with Alex, Joyner pre-recent-problems, Daulton next)
2. Jersey Red and Ronnie tied for creative One Pocket (Efren for the modern players, with Frost second)
3. Artie, Clem and Hayden Lingo for controlling all aspects of the game. Hubert Cokes sounds like a player that did not necessarily play as well talent-wise, but played the game smart.

I wish we had video of Lingo and 'Rags' Fitzpatrick, because both sound like they were among the original masters. It sounds like Fats was more of an offensive player in the early days, in the style of Bugs or Taylor (but under).

But, in the last twenty years, I sure liked watching the way Steve Cook & Grady Mathews played, and more recently Cliff Joyner. I'd also have to throw Billy I into the mix of guys that I have watched that play the entire game "right".

my humble opinion

[Greyghost]

with all the hoopla about his one pocket charts and such and stories I've heard In my opinion it would be Lingo.

Now I'm a firm believer that there has to be more defense/moving to properly play the game. That said, you Artie are right along up there with anyone when it comes to strategy.

I figure it would be a the least a tie b/t lingo, you, Ronnie, and Effren...and throw Red in there too.

Stay alive artie, for I will get with you sometime and pick your brain apart :)....thats if I don't freeze to death offshore first (ITS COLD!)

On a serious note I'll be glad to get home today, my feet have been frozen for a week and my rooster wont come out the coop lmao. Its 25 degree out here with 50MPH winds SOB thats cold.

[u12armresl]

What about a person most haven't ever heard of?

I've posted about a guy from Indy who played anyone and everyone (including Parica and Effren both one time) at his pool hall on a tight GC.

Maybe an unknown might start too much of a fight, why didn't he go here or here and gamble at this place etc.

[Greyghost]

What about a person most haven't ever heard of?

I've posted about a guy from Indy who played anyone and everyone (including Parica and Effren both one time) at his pool hall on a tight GC.

Maybe an unknown might start too much of a fight, why didn't he go here or here and gamble at this place etc.


Maybe he had better things to do? Maybe not, not everyone with world class skill in any area is always going to do that. Hell I had a teacher that was drafted into pro football in the 70's and he was an amazing college player. He never joined the NFL, tho he loved football....instead he went got his PHD in multiple areas of history from Yale, then went on to teach at Harvard for almost 10 years.

Just like the idea that if there were A TON of money in pool, then you would see people come out the woodwork and we really don't know who is all out there. There may be some savant 17yr old in Mongolia that could beat the world but has never left the village.

who knows,
Grey Ghost

[Artie Bodendorfer]

with all the hoopla about his one pocket charts and such and stories I've heard In my opinion it would be Lingo.

Now I'm a firm believer that there has to be more defense/moving to properly play the game. That said, you Artie are right along up there with anyone when it comes to strategy.

I figure it would be a the least a tie b/t lingo, you, Ronnie, and Effren...and throw Red in there too.

Stay alive artie, for I will get with you sometime and pick your brain apart :)....thats if I don't freeze to death offshore first (ITS COLD!)

On a serious note I'll be glad to get home today, my feet have been frozen for a week and my rooster wont come out the coop lmao. Its 25 degree out here with 50MPH winds SOB thats cold. Greygoast you can pick my brain and ask me any qoistion you would like to ask. And I will give you a solid answer. If I ask the champions qouistions the will not be able to answer them correctly because they dont know the answer. But THats what people never see or look at. If someone knowes what they are doing and you ask them Why or how to do it do you think they should know thw answer. Espeacialy the greatest and the champions and rhe player who have been playing for 40 year. If you know one pocket then you should be able to give the correct answer. And if you dont have the correct answer they need to ask themselves WHy they dont have the correct answer that goes for everyone.But the shooters just shoot. And they dont try to think or learn or change thier style. I can play as agressive as anyone . And I can be more agressive rhen any one because off the way I think. And not to many people are given that gifte. And to play very agressive you have to not miss and execute what you are trying to do without a mistake. But thats enough philosipy for now. I will be happy to answer anything you want to ask Greygoast and everybody. I can teach a great skilled shooter how to be the best player in the world. How many people can say that.

[fred bentivegna]

I hesitated to reply to this thread because I was only going to answer it honestly, and in order to do that I would have to (once again) blow a little toot on my own horn. (There I go again, SJD, you are right about 1 thing anyway) There were only maybe about 5 people I deferred to in regard to their Onepocket OVERALL KNOWLEDGE, Marcel Camp, Gene Skinner, Jersey Red, Ronnie Allen, and I'm forced to say it -- Artie. Everybody else I watched I, always thought I could blow big holes in their game. The list of those, IMO, is impressive, Buddy, Varner, Efren, Parica, Shannon, etc. Even some of the name brand movers, Cooney, Joiner, and even my accu-stats booth partner, Billy Boy Incardona (whose hair is probably standing straight up right now), all have a few Achilles heels in the play-of-the-game dept. I have played all these folks, and as long as I was in good stroke, able to execute what I knew, I had good success against them, and that is an indication of the disparity in play, since even in dead stoke I never shot anywhere as good as any of them. Example: At a St Charles Ill tourn, Kim Davenport offered me the wild five playing 9 ball, but wanted 8 to 7 playing Onepocket. We played neither game.
When I was in dead stroke, even Artie wouldnt fool with me much, he would cunningly, rather bet on me (he will never admit this), and then just wait until I reverted to my Clark Kent identity before playing and robbing me again.

Beard

[lll]

There were only maybe about 5 people I deferred to in regard to their Onepocket OVERALL KNOWLEDGE, Marcel Camp, Gene Skinner, Jersey Red, Ronnie Allen, and I'm forced to say it -- Artie. Everybody else I watched I, always thought I could blow big holes in their game. The list of those, IMO, is impressive, Buddy, Varner, Efren, Parica, Shannon, etc. Even some of the name brand movers, Cooney, Joiner, and even my accu-stats booth partner, Billy Boy Incardona (whose hair is probably standing straight up right now), all have a few Achilles heels in the play-of-the-game dept. .

Beard
could you give some examples of each players achilles heel?

[lll]

Artie,, although you should probably start a new thread if you decide to answer my question which is this,
since you have so much to teach, why dont you pose one question for us to answer we'll see who responds what they do or dont know and why and we'll hear what you consider the correct answer. yes there will be those who will not accept your answer as the final word and will beleive their answer was correct.but for those of us that keep an open mind we will learn alot from the discussion

[Deeman]

I have to say, based on talking to many people but never seeing him in his prime that the most feared ever had to be Ronnie. Sure, there are those who may have beaten him on occasion but there were just too many times when he came out on top to think anyone else was consistently the best aside from Efren for a few years.

As Steve said, it is a shame we don't have matches of some of the past greats to look at. I liked Steve Cook for several of the matches I did see him play.

As well, I think Ronnie changed the game as much as anyone ever did in his offensive play.

DeeMan

[Skin]

Greygoast you can pick my brain and ask me any qoistion you would like to ask. And I will give you a solid answer. If I ask the champions qouistions the will not be able to answer them correctly because they dont know the answer. But THats what people never see or look at. If someone knowes what they are doing and you ask them Why or how to do it do you think they should know thw answer. Espeacialy the greatest and the champions and rhe player who have been playing for 40 year. If you know one pocket then you should be able to give the correct answer. And if you dont have the correct answer they need to ask themselves WHy they dont have the correct answer that goes for everyone.But the shooters just shoot. And they dont try to think or learn or change thier style. I can play as agressive as anyone . And I can be more agressive rhen any one because off the way I think. And not to many people are given that gifte. And to play very agressive you have to not miss and execute what you are trying to do without a mistake. But thats enough philosipy for now. I will be happy to answer anything you want to ask Greygoast and everybody. I can teach a great skilled shooter how to be the best player in the world. How many people can say that.

Hey, Artie. I'm glad you came back to post because I've been wanting to thank you for something you wrote to me a while back. Here it is:

Thier is so much to learn people would not belive it. BUt it all needs to be explained. You can shoot shots and cut your opponent from shooting shots on only half the table or a quater off the table. By shooting certain shootsand by butting the cue ball in a certain poition. You force your opponent to shoot certain shots and force him to only have one or two choices. ANd you can evenstop him from going to the bottom rail with the cueball. But these are all things that you have to learn. And nt meny people can do what I am taliking about. OR even think about what i am saying. I dont go real deep into the game because it would be like I was in a dream and I am the only person thier. I think way different then all the other players. And to be honest I dont even no why I think that way. I take it as a gifte from God.


I have been looking for shots that cut off the good parts of the table and the good angles during my practices and I'll be danged if that is not a brilliant approach to trapping the other guy instead of just finding a place to tie him up. It is taking time to learn, but it has already paid off in some recent games. Last time out my opponent got frustrated and said, "You've been leaving me in some strange places today, Skin. I'm not getting any shots that help me."

A good teacher will teach his student what the teacher knows. An excellent teacher, however, will also teach his student how much his student doesn't know. And you can write that down, Artie. :)

Skin

[fred bentivegna]

could you give some examples of each players achilles heel?

I certainly could.
I also have a critique of the situation hashed over, so far incorrectly, on the Correct Strategy thread. I have been saving it. When I go into the theory of it, some will begin to understand some of the deeper underlying concepts of 1 pockee that go unobserved.
Beard

[lll]

I certainly could.
I also have a critique of the situation hashed over, so far incorrectly, on the Correct Strategy thread. I have been saving it. When I go into the theory of it, some will begin to understand some of the deeper underlying concepts of 1 pockee that go unobserved.
Beard
the title to your post didnt quote. it said "IF YOU DRAG IT OUT OF ME"
i "might" be able to find a runaway hillbilly girl for you. of course you would have to spill the beans first

[Tennessee Joe6]

I have been looking for shots that cut off the good parts of the table and the good angles during my practices and I'll be danged if that is not a brilliant approach to trapping the other guy instead of just finding a place to tie him up. It is taking time to learn, but it has already paid off in some recent games. Last time out my opponent got frustrated and said, "You've been leaving me in some strange places today, Skin. I'm not getting any shots that help me."

A good teacher will teach his student what the teacher knows. An excellent teacher, however, will also teach his student how much his student doesn't know. And you can write that down, Artie. :)

Skin



This is interesting but could post examples of this via WEI table?

Thanks,
Tennessee Joe

[Skin]

This is interesting but could post examples of this via WEI table?

Thanks,
Tennessee Joe

Here's a quick example off the top of my head. You can find lots of them in the threads by the better players here.

You have pocket A. Assume you have to decide between the two safeties shown. The red dot cb safety cuts him off from everything on the bottom 2/3 of the table and the angle he has to shoot is away from the balls by your hole and his. Versus the B cb leave where he has many more balls he can hit and options for a return safety.

Somebody will probably find a flaw in what I drew, but it's just meant to illustrate the general idea. I'm still learning of course. :)

Skin

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AScP1BVxJ1CWFt4DWLN1EbOE4FAvI3GTqM1HYar3Iacw3JMuV4KQWi3LQwP2MRiQ4Najl4OPBN1PYkH3QcQt1RbwH2hRiQ2hRaS1kYkH2kPud2kajn2kJMn1kaxX1mbwH2mPeE2maof4mbix4mVEk@

[Cowboy Dennis]

I hesitated to reply to this thread because I was only going to answer it honestly, and in order to do that I would have to (once again) blow a little toot on my own horn. (There I go again, SJD, you are right about 1 thing anyway) There were only maybe about 5 people I deferred to in regard to their Onepocket OVERALL KNOWLEDGE, Marcel Camp, Gene Skinner, Jersey Red, Ronnie Allen, and I'm forced to say it -- Artie. Everybody else I watched I, always thought I could blow big holes in their game. The list of those, IMO, is impressive, Buddy, Varner, Efren, Parica, Shannon, etc. Even some of the name brand movers, Cooney, Joiner, and even my accu-stats booth partner, Billy Boy Incardona (whose hair is probably standing straight up right now), all have a few Achilles heels in the play-of-the-game dept. I have played all these folks, and as long as I was in good stroke, able to execute what I knew, I had good success against them, and that is an indication of the disparity in play, since even in dead stoke I never shot anywhere as good as any of them. Example: At a St Charles Ill tourn, Kim Davenport offered me the wild five playing 9 ball, but wanted 8 to 7 playing Onepocket. We played neither game.
When I was in dead stroke, even Artie wouldnt fool with me much, he would cunningly, rather bet on me (he will never admit this), and then just wait until I reverted to my Clark Kent identity before playing and robbing me again.

Beard


Freddy,

Have you been swimming in Lake Michigan, again?

Deek

[fred bentivegna]

the title to your post didnt quote. it said "IF YOU DRAG IT OUT OF ME"
i "might" be able to find a runaway hillbilly girl for you. of course you would have to spill the beans first

Some of the "holes" in the "extolled.":
Efren, never met a ball he thought deserved to be shot up table. Cooney, never met a big, ball-clearing move that he didnt like. Danny Di, with all the balls up table, he cant wait to get the game over, pay off, rack 'em up, and move on to a new game. Varner, never met a home run pitch that he wanted to swing at. Incardona, would swing at the pitch, but would never like it (ala Bugs and Ronnie). Joyner, wouldnt get out of the electric chair if he had to opt for a small, unexciting, time-buying move. Buddy Hall, plays the game exactly one shot at a time in reaction mode, no overall plan.


Beard, the H L Menken of pool

Incidentally, a couple more guys who played, what I thought was the right way, Steve Cook and Jimmy Fusco. Or to put it another way, guys I would be comfortable betting on.
(Still need to publish a critical insight into the Correct Strategy thread)

[Cowboy Dennis]

(Still need to publish a critical insight into the Correct Strategy thread)


Boy, that sure would be nice as I can't see much to do. Make sure that you scrape that Lake Michigan algae off of your ass before you post:) .

[Artie Bodendorfer]

Here's a quick example off the top of my head. You can find lots of them in the threads by the better players here.

You have pocket A. Assume you have to decide between the two safeties shown. The red dot cb safety cuts him off from everything on the bottom 2/3 of the table and the angle he has to shoot is away from the balls by your hole and his. Versus the B cb leave where he has many more balls he can hit and options for a return safety.

Somebody will probably find a flaw in what I drew, but it's just meant to illustrate the general idea. I'm still learning of course. :)

Skin

http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AScP1BVxJ1CWFt4DWLN1EbOE4FAvI3GTqM1HYar3Iacw3JMuV4KQWi3LQwP2MRiQ4Najl4OPBN1PYkH3QcQt1RbwH2hRiQ2hRaS1kYkH2kPud2kajn2kJMn1kaxX1mbwH2mPeE2maof4mbix4mVEk@ You have your opponet all locket up already you do not have to gamble and let him out off the trap. You are on the offense and you can dictate from her what to do. Its not good to shoot a shot and let your opponent out off the trap. You must shoot simple shots that are easy to exicute. And once you learn the correct shot you have to remember it. thats how you get smarter and stronger in the game. But you have a great mind for onepocket. And the love for the game will make you more creative. Good luch in 2010. The year the game will come togeather for you.

[fred bentivegna]

"I have a critique of the situation, hashed over so far incorrectly, on the Correct Strategy thread. I have been saving it. When I go into the theory of it, some will begin to understand some of the deeper underlying concepts of 1 pockee that go unobserved. "Thats a promise I made earlier and I am going to fulfill it now:
I want to discuss a valuable concept often overlooked. This particular layout isnt a perfect example of what I wanted to go over, but its close enough. The key ball is the 15. The problem is what to do with it, and when. Rather than just immediately give up what I know should be done, and why, I would rather get a little feedback first. I would like to avoid either blatant knocks, which I dont think would happen in this case, but I also dont want to hear after the solution, "so and so has always done that," and "Of course, who dont know that."
What I'm talking about is what Artie has been saying all along, about knowing why you are doing something, and what is your plan? Can anyone describe a plan here? Lets assume the score is about even.

Beard

Http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AUPG3BQoI2CYLc2DPbX2EYpm4FTqJ4GNmM4HWTK2IUIe4JGTJ4KQgK4LKDK2MXUe1NOSh1OYnR4PDAI3Qcxs@3AUPG3BQoI2CYLc2DPbX2EYpm4FTqJ4GNmM4HWTK2IUIe4JGTJ4KQgK4LKDK2MXUe1NOSh1OYnR4PDAI3Qcxs4kDAI1kboI1kRMe@3AUPG3BQoI2CYLc2DPbX2EYpm4FTqJ4GNmM4HWTK2IUIe4JGTJ4KQgK4LKDK2MXUe1NNEX1OYnR1PQvd3Qcxs@

[Cowboy Dennis]

Lets assume the score is about even. Beard



Freddy,

I know that you know that the score being about even changes everybodys strategies, but here's your layout with the score even.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AUPG3BQoI2CYLc2DPbX2EYpm4FTqJ4GNmM4HWTK2IUIe3JNmL4KQgK3LLBL2MXUe1NOSh1OYnR4PDAI3Qcxs@3AUPG3BQoI2CYLc2DPbX2EYpm4FTqJ4GNmM4HWTK2IUIe3JNuI4KQgK3LLBK2MXUe1NOSh1OYnR4PDAI3Qcxs4kDAI1kboI1kRMe@3AUPG3BQoI2CYLc2DPbX2EYpm4FTqJ4GNmM4HWTK2IUIe3JNuJ4KQgK3LLBK2MXUe1NNEX1OYnR1PQvd3Qcxs@

[Cowboy Dennis]

Freddy,

I know that you know that the score being about even changes everybodys strategies, but here's your layout with the score even.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AUPG3BQoI2CYLc2DPbX2EYpm4FTqJ4GNmM4HWTK2IUIe3JNmL4KQgK3LLBL2MXUe1NOSh1OYnR4PDAI3Qcxs@3AUPG3BQoI2CYLc2DPbX2EYpm4FTqJ4GNmM4HWTK2IUIe3JNuI4KQgK3LLBK2MXUe1NOSh1OYnR4PDAI3Qcxs4kDAI1kboI1kRMe@3AUPG3BQoI2CYLc2DPbX2EYpm4FTqJ4GNmM4HWTK2IUIe3JNuJ4KQgK3LLBK2MXUe1NNEX1OYnR1PQvd3Qcxs@


With the score being even I believe I may just do this but only because I don't kick real good at balls.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AUPG3BQoI2CYLc2DPbX2EYpm4FTqJ4GNmM4HWTK2IUIe3JNmL4KQgK3LLBL2MXUe1NOSh1OYnR4PDAI3Qcxs@3AUPG3BQoI2CYLc2DPbX2EYpm4FTqJ4GNmM4HWTK2IUIe3JNmL4KQgK3LLBL2MXUe1NOSh1OYnR4PDAI3Qcxs1jYnR1jWbk1jUvY4kDAI1kbbC1kbKG@3AUPG3BQoI2CYLc2DPbX2EYpm4FTqJ4GNmM4HWTK2IUIe3JNmL4KQgK3LLBL2MXUe1NOSh1OUvY1PbKG3Qcxs@

[vapros]

In the current example, I still believe that the very best move is to pocket the 15, rail first, and to snug up as tightly as possible against the 14. The incoming player will have a tough time finding a spot for the cb that will not leave you in control of the table.

I am really curious to see the progress of this thread. Are we about to get something profound that will change our outlooks on one-pocket? Before I give up this stump, lemme say that I can't imagine a game plan that goes beyond the choice of what kind of a game you will employ today. (Bold, cautious, aggressive, etc.) In certain situations you can find yourself able to force a certain shot by your opponent, but can you really plan farther than that? My own immediate game plan (such as it is) changes almost every time it's my turn to shoot.

I can hardly wait to hear from the real players.

[Cowboy Dennis]

My own immediate game plan (such as it is) changes almost every time it's my turn to shoot.


V-Man,

I firmly believe that's a sign of good one-pocket thinking. We all have to change our thinking and strategies often in a game and sometimes on every shot. Don't feel alone in that regard.

Dennis

[SJDinPHX]

In the current example, I still believe that the very best move is to pocket the 15, rail first, and to snug up as tightly as possible against the 14. The incoming player will have a tough time finding a spot for the cb that will not leave you in control of the table.

I am really curious to see the progress of this thread. Are we about to get something profound that will change our outlooks on one-pocket? Before I give up this stump, lemme say that I can't imagine a game plan that goes beyond the choice of what kind of a game you will employ today. (Bold, cautious, aggressive, etc.) In certain situations you can find yourself able to force a certain shot by your opponent, but can you really plan farther than that? My own immediate game plan (such as it is) changes almost every time it's my turn to shoot.

I can hardly wait to hear from the real players.

Vapros,

Anybody who doesn't like your choice of shots in that spot, is just grasping at straws, or trying to be contrary. It is the simplest, most productive shot available in that layout...I think 99% of the best players in the world, would opt for that shot every time,...if they were playing to win !!!.;)

PS..Dennis' shot is not bad, but it allows the opponent several easy escapes, and it could easily backfire. The 15 coming up on the spot, forces the incoming player to execute some kind of defensive maneuver, whereby he doesn't loose control of the table

[SJDinPHX]

V-Man,

I firmly believe that's a sign of good one-pocket thinking. We all have to change our thinking and strategies often in a game and sometimes on every shot. Don't feel alone in that regard.

Dennis

This brilliant observation, from a guy who won a football bet tonite, because he didn't have time to complete his cheerleader googling....oops, wrong forum !!!.:eek:

[fred bentivegna]

[QUOTE=SJDinPHX]Vapros, "Shoot the 15 gently, rail first. Leave him frozen on the short rail, and maybe even up against the 14."

Anybody who doesn't like your choice of shots in that spot, is just grasping at straws, or trying to be contrary. It is the simplest, most productive shot available in that layout...I think 99% of the best players in the world, would opt for that shot every time,...if they were playing to win !!!.;)


SJD, you are so easy. I knew if I made any kind of declarative statement about what I thought might be helpful, you'd jump right in and step on your SJ Dick. Its a good thing we never clashed in the pool room because I'm sure I would have kept you broke. You are just too hot for my ass. Rather than just dummying up and giving me a chance to maybe show somebody something, you pee all over everything without even knowing what Im going to say. "Grasping," "contrary," "99%," and "playing to win." Did you really think I came to a gunfight with a butter knife? Maybe everybody isn't as smart or knowledgeably secure as you, and they might like to consider what I have to say.

You affirmed my concerns when I originally said, "I would like to avoid either blatant knocks, which I dont think would happen in this case." But then you quickly proved me wrong about the 2nd part of the sentence.

That all said, back to something positive.
First off, shooting the 15 in the pocket is the VERY LAST thing I would consider doing. Even tho "99% of the rest of the best players would opt for that shot." Those who did would not have thought the situation through.
Next hint: The only ball I would consider is the 14 ball. I would either kick at it slowly, one rail, or slow roll and just touch it on the right side. I would never bank the 14 because of about 50 bad things that could happen, scratch, wild cue ball, and the worst thing, moving the 15 ball. That's a hint fellas.

the Beard
More later. If you people want to learn something , somebody put a muzzle on that Arizona hound. (I might never had shot real straight, but I was never dumb)

Final proviso, anybody notice how I leave San Dick alone most of the time? No teasing. Thats because most of his posts are reasonable, funny, and sometimes even sensible. Its only when in competition with me does he go on tilt. Shame.

[gulfportdoc]

Next hint: The only ball I would consider is the 14 ball. I would either kick at it slowly, one rail, or slow roll and just touch it on the right side. I would never bank the 14 because of about 50 bad things that could happen, scratch, wild cue ball, and the worst thing, moving the 15 ball. That's a hint fellas.

I like the contrariness of the shot.:D But I don't see what the shot gains. The 4-ball banks, and the 5-ball kicks to B's pocket. What's wrong with simply rolling up on the 5-ball and having it bump the rail? B doesn't have much to do from there.

Doc

[CaliRed]

you'd jump right in and step on your SJ Dick.

Dick, even you have to admit, that's a great line!:D

[Skin]

My plan is simple. Get a ball downtable that I can sink and come off of to get behind those three balls near my side hole, while protecting those balls from being moved right now. I know he isn't going to leave me behind those balls on purpose. I'm going to have to do it myself. That's why I am sticking with my original plan (same as vapros described and Steve first posted).

Skin

[fred bentivegna]

I like the contrariness of the shot.:D But I don't see what the shot gains. The 4-ball banks, and the 5-ball kicks to B's pocket. What's wrong with simply rolling up on the 5-ball and having it bump the rail? B doesn't have much to do from there.

Doc

My opponent can have all the 9 ft cross corners, where he cant control the speed on, that he wants. He can also 9ft. kick at all the single balls he wants, when all the balls are still on my side. Unless he makes the bank or the kick, I should have a return shot to my pocket.

Beard

[fred bentivegna]

Originally Posted by fred bentivegna
you'd jump right in and step on your SJ Dick.

Dick, even you have to admit, that's a great line!:D


What's wrong with, "put a muzzle on that Arizona hound?"

Beard
C'mon fellas. One shot at a time aint gonna do it. Artie's been trying to tell you in his own inimitable way, over and over, and over and over, that you need to think about what youre doing, and to have a PLAN. Know why you are doing something. This is going to be a small example of such.

[NH Steve]

Okay, now I'm real curious. Here is the orginal layout (I think -- unless the balls shifted, which they do now and then, lol):


http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AUPG3BQoI2CYLc2DPbX2EYpm4FTqJ4GNmM4HWTK2IUIe3JNmL4KQgK3LLBL2MXUe1NOSh1OYnR4PDAI3Qcxs@

[twister]

I'm guessing that the idea behind kicking softly at the 14 or slow rolling towards it on the right side is that to reposition it for either a more favorable straight back bank towards our pocket or even a kick bank (2-rail bank) the next time our opponent choosing to leave us on the bottom rail. The kick bank might be especially nice as you could use the balls near our side pocket as blocking balls.

[Tennessee Joe6]

Okay, now I'm real curious. Here is the orginal layout (I think -- unless the balls shifted, which they do now and then, lol):


http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AUPG3BQoI2CYLc2DPbX2EYpm4FTqJ4GNmM4HWTK2IUIe3JNmL4KQgK3LLBL2MXUe1NOSh1OYnR4PDAI3Qcxs@


My original post was to bank the 14 back to my pocket with left english---the score being me down 6 to 2. An agressive option.


Now that the score is even, this is a better approach:
I think the correct shot is to shoot the 4 into the right side of the 3 just hard enough for the 3 to get the rail and the q-ball to lay up against the bottom of the 9.The opponent then could not shoot the q-ball down table,as he would be looking straight into the side pocket.The opponent really has no place to go without taking an intentional foul or giving up a much better shot than what you are faced with now.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AUPG3BQoI2CYLc2DPbX2EYpm4FTqJ4GNmM4HWTK2IUIe3JNmL4KQgK3LLBL2MXUe1NOSh1OYnR4PDAI3Qcxs2WYLc2Waan2Waan2Waan2XPbX2XWgP2XWwS4kDAI2kOEJ2kTjQ2kTjQ2kTSO2kTSO@

[fred bentivegna]

I'm guessing that the idea behind kicking softly at the 14 or slow rolling towards it on the right side is that to reposition it for either a more favorable straight back bank towards our pocket or even a kick bank (2-rail bank) the next time our opponent choosing to leave us on the bottom rail. The kick bank might be especially nice as you could use the balls near our side pocket as blocking balls.

Not exactly what I had in mind, but a great line of thinking nonetheless, and a good set of options. That's getting away from that linear, one-shot-at-time process, where you are always attacking off of the seemingly obvious shot, whether it's the right thing to do or not. That's putting troops in place for a later, more coordinated attack. You have put together a PLAN!

the Beard

[fred bentivegna]

My original post was to bank the 14 back to my pocket with left english---the score being me down 6 to 2. An agressive option.


Now that the score is even, this is a better approach:
I think the correct shot is to shoot the 4 into the right side of the 3 just hard enough for the 3 to get the rail and the q-ball to lay up against the bottom of the 9.The opponent then could not shoot the q-ball down table,as he would be looking straight into the side pocket.The opponent really has no place to go without taking an intentional foul or giving up a much better shot than what you are faced with now.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AUPG3BQoI2CYLc2DPbX2EYpm4FTqJ4GNmM4HWTK2IUIe3JNmL4KQgK3LLBL2MXUe1NOSh1OYnR4PDAI3Qcxs2WYLc2Waan2Waan2Waan2XPbX2XWgP2XWwS4kDAI2kOEJ2kTjQ2kTjQ2kTSO2kTSO@

You would need your hand, not a cuestick to execute what you suggest. The cueball would have to land absolutely perfect to accomplish what you suggest. Miss-hit and I scratch in the side. Unless I freeze to the 9 perfectly, I can draw the cue back into the long rail and head back to the foot of the table. If I freeze to the left side of the 9 ball then I can shoot off of the side of the 9 into the opposite long rail and return the cue ball the the foot rail.
One more thing, the balls on your side are already in a great position. Anything you do to move them toward the head of the table is a minus.

Beard

[SJDinPHX]

[QUOTE=SJDinPHX]Vapros, "Shoot the 15 gently, rail first. Leave him frozen on the short rail, and maybe even up against the 14."

Anybody who doesn't like your choice of shots in that spot, is just grasping at straws, or trying to be contrary. It is the simplest, most productive shot available in that layout...I think 99% of the best players in the world, would opt for that shot every time,...if they were playing to win !!!.;)


SJD, you are so easy. I knew if I made any kind of declarative statement about what I thought might be helpful, you'd jump right in and step on your SJ Dick. Its a good thing we never clashed in the pool room because I'm sure I would have kept you broke. You are just too hot for my ass. Rather than just dummying up and giving me a chance to maybe show somebody something, you pee all over everything without even knowing what Im going to say. "Grasping," "contrary," "99%," and "playing to win." Did you really think I came to a gunfight with a butter knife? Maybe everybody isn't as smart or knowledgeably secure as you, and they might like to consider what I have to say.

You affirmed my concerns when I originally said, "I would like to avoid either blatant knocks, which I dont think would happen in this case." But then you quickly proved me wrong about the 2nd part of the sentence.

That all said, back to something positive.
First off, shooting the 15 in the pocket is the VERY LAST thing I would consider doing. Even tho "99% of the rest of the best players would opt for that shot." Those who did would not have thought the situation through.
Next hint: The only ball I would consider is the 14 ball. I would either kick at it slowly, one rail, or slow roll and just touch it on the right side. I would never bank the 14 because of about 50 bad things that could happen, scratch, wild cue ball, and the worst thing, moving the 15 ball. That's a hint fellas.

the Beard
More later. If you people want to learn something , somebody put a muzzle on that Arizona hound. (I might never had shot real straight, but I was never dumb)

Final proviso, anybody notice how I leave San Dick alone most of the time? No teasing. Thats because most of his posts are reasonable, funny, and sometimes even sensible. Its only when in competition with me does he go on tilt. Shame.

Beardmonster,

You should not have pissed me off...no more sugar coating !!!!

Your convoluted and lengthy diatribe, is befitting of your insecure station as a bonified one pocket guru. You are trying to adapt a method of pure unadultrated "bamboozling",...which I shall henceforth refer to as,... "The Chicago Vulcan Mind F**k". (or CVMF for short)
It is absolutely dizzying in concept, but very short in substance. (as you have proven many times)

You, and other proponents of the CVMF, are of the mis-guided opinion that you actually think that you guys, possess a veritable gold mine of information, about the best options available for any specific situation, that may arise in the game of one pocket.

As usual, in trying to impress [sic] people with how much you know, and how stupid other people are...you quite often forget a very simple addage....that is KISS. (keep it simple stupid)

Why would you want to create a shot that requires more skill than you probably possess, when a simpler, better, and much easier alternative, is staring you in the face.

I think it stems from your need to "impress" lesser player's, with your amazing [sic] grasp of the game, and all its various subtleties.

Give it a f**king rest Fred...You are not, nor ever have been...a real authority on the finer points of one pocket. Your lofty [sic] achievements, speak for themselves.

Please stick to your niche game, and stop trying to confuse our fine forum member's with your "ever so helpful" [sic] tips.

Further critiquing of others...long known to be far better player's then you, including moi,... may lead to a special trip to Chicago (summertime only) to show you just how wrong you are, in your "superiority complex", brag riddled blathering.

As for YOU, keeping ME broke... what I've seen from you these past few years...that would not have happened "then" or "now"

Don't make me come and show you....:eek:

SanMan <---CVMF-proof for 55 years...with 20 years off for good behavior !!! :cool:

PS..And no, you didn't bring anything near as threatening as a butter knife to the gun fight...tweezers maybe.. :D :D

[levartze]

You would need your hand, not a cuestick to execute what you suggest. The cueball would have to land absolutely perfect to accomplish what you suggest. Miss-hit and I scratch in the side. Unless I freeze to the 9 perfectly, I can draw the cue back into the long rail and head back to the foot of the table. If I freeze to the left side of the 9 ball then I can shoot off of the side of the 9 into the opposite long rail and return the cue ball the the foot rail.
One more thing, the balls on your side are already in a great position. Anything you do to move them toward the head of the table is a minus.

Beard

What if you shot at the 5 and had the cueball hit the rail and hide behind the 9ball?
http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AUPG3BQoI2CYLc2DPbX2EYpm4FTqJ4GNmM4HWTK2IUIe3JNmL4KQgK3LLBL2MXUe1NOSh1OYnR4PDAP3Qcxs4kDAP2kYQY2kcCa2kWdY2kWEa@3AUPG3BQoI2CYLc2DPbX2EYpm4FTqJ4GNmM4HWTK2IUIe3JNuI4KQgK3LLBK2MXUe1NOSh1OYnR4PDAI3Qcxs4kDAI1kboI1kRMe@3AUPG3BQoI2CYLc2DPbX2EYpm4FTqJ4GNmM4HWTK2IUIe3JNuJ4KQgK3LLBK2MXUe1NNEX1OYnR1PQvd3Qcxs@

[jay helfert]

I am not talking about the best player but who do you think played the game the best? And it does not have to be the best player shooter or banker. I am courious who people think who played the game the best?

RONNIE ALLEN

[Cowboy Dennis]

You would need your hand, not a cuestick to execute what you suggest. The cueball would have to land absolutely perfect to accomplish what you suggest. Miss-hit and I scratch in the side. Unless I freeze to the 9 perfectly, I can draw the cue back into the long rail and head back to the foot of the table. If I freeze to the left side of the 9 ball then I can shoot off of the side of the 9 into the opposite long rail and return the cue ball the the foot rail.
One more thing, the balls on your side are already in a great position. Anything you do to move them toward the head of the table is a minus.

Beard

Freddy,

That's word for word exactly what I thought when I saw this layout. Those cold water dips are doing you some good:) .

Dennis

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AUPG3BQoI2CYLc2DPbX2EYpm4FTqJ4GNmM4HWTK2IUIe3JNmL4KQgK3LLBL2MXUe1NOSh1OYnR4PDAI3Qcxs2WYLc2Waan2Waan2Waan2XPbX2XWgP2XWwS4kDAI2kOEJ2kTjQ2kTjQ2kTSO2kTSO@

[NH Steve]

What if you shot at the 5 and had the cueball hit the rail and hide behind the 9ball?
http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AUPG3BQoI2CYLc2DPbX2EYpm4FTqJ4GNmM4HWTK2IUIe3JNmL4KQgK3LLBL2MXUe1NOSh1OYnR4PDAP3Qcxs4kDAP2kYQY2kcCa2kWdY2kWEa@3AUPG3BQoI2CYLc2DPbX2EYpm4FTqJ4GNmM4HWTK2IUIe3JNuI4KQgK3LLBK2MXUe1NOSh1OYnR4PDAI3Qcxs4kDAI1kboI1kRMe@3AUPG3BQoI2CYLc2DPbX2EYpm4FTqJ4GNmM4HWTK2IUIe3JNuJ4KQgK3LLBK2MXUe1NNEX1OYnR1PQvd3Qcxs@

I would not do that unless maybe I was way ahead, because it gives the 'B' player a free opportunity to knock the balls away from my side, by leaving him right up under them. I like the position of those balls, and don't want them knocked away if the score is even, or if I was behind.

[fred bentivegna]

[QUOTE=fred bentivegna]

Beardmonster,

You should not have pissed me off...no more sugar coating !!!!

Your convoluted and lengthy diatribe, is befitting of your insecure station as a bonified one pocket guru. You are trying to adapt a method of pure unadultrated "bamboozling",...which I shall henceforth refer to as,... "The Chicago Vulcan Mind F**k". (or CVMF for short)
It is absolutely dizzying in concept, but very short in substance. (as you have proven many times)

You, and other proponents of the CVMF, are of the mis-guided opinion that you actually think that you guys, possess a veritable gold mine of information, about the best options available for any specific situation, that may arise in the game of one pocket.

As usual, in trying to impress [sic] people with how much you know, and how stupid other people are...you quite often forget a very simple addage....that is KISS. (keep it simple stupid)

Why would you want to create a shot that requires more skill than you probably possess, when a simpler, better, and much easier alternative, is staring you in the face.

I think it stems from your need to "impress" lesser player's, with your amazing [sic] grasp of the game, and all its various subtleties.

Give it a f**king rest Fred...You are not, nor ever have been...a real authority on the finer points of one pocket. Your lofty [sic] achievements, speak for themselves.

Please stick to your niche game, and stop trying to confuse our fine forum member's with your "ever so helpful" [sic] tips.

Further critiquing of others...long known to be far better player's then you, including moi,... may lead to a special trip to Chicago (summertime only) to show you just how wrong you are, in your "superiority complex", brag riddled blathering.

As for YOU, keeping ME broke... what I've seen from you these past few years...that would not have happened "then" or "now"

Don't make me come and show you....:eek:

SanMan <---CVMF-proof for 55 years...with 20 years off for good behavior !!! :cool:

PS..And no, you didn't bring anything near as threatening as a butter knife to the gun fight...tweezers maybe.. :D :D


I cant believe Im getting attacked this vehemently over what I havent even said yet! Has anyone else noticed that I havent even revealed what or why I would do in that spot? This maniac is assuming that what I have to say is valueless. Thats one of the most presumptious things I have ever endured in my life. He is first assuming that I am a onepocket dunce, based on --- what? He's never seen me play in his life. Eddie Kelly thinks I know the game, but not this bird. Especially since I knocked Kelly into the losers bracket in Vegas and then met him again there, and finished him off. That was in the 70s when he was maybe the best all around player in the world. All that nonsense aside, does anybody see a pattern here? After 50 yrs in this f'ng game, I aint supposed to have an opinion worth hearing? I'm asking people to really think about what they're doing and having a plan, and that's akin to pontificating and bragging? Efren Reyes listens to anything I have to say about 1 pkt, but its all gibberish to the Sand Hound. Hopefully, there are a few members out there that have an open minded curiousity for my inputs.
If Im wrong about that, I have no problem dropping the subject.

Beard

[Fast Lenny]

I would pocket the 15 ball and leave him shooting on the rail, let him try some foolish bank and turn the cue ball loose, with the way the balls are laying his effort would favor me coming to the table with a good shot. Most likely I would pocket the 15 and he would bank the 15 out of play. What is your shot Freddy?

[SJDinPHX]

I cant believe Im getting attacked this vehemently over what I havent even said yet! Has anyone else noticed that I havent even revealed what or why I would do in that spot? This maniac is assuming that what I have to say is valueless. Thats one of the most presumptious things I have ever endured in my life. He is assuming that I am a onepocket dunce.

Rather than just dummying up and giving me a chance to maybe show somebody something, you pee all over everything without even knowing what Im going to say.

That all said, back to something positive.
First off, shooting the 15 in the pocket is the VERY LAST thing I would consider doing. Even tho "99% of the rest of the best players would opt for that shot." Those who did would not have thought the situation through.
Next hint: The only ball I would consider is the 14 ball. I would either kick at it slowly, one rail, or slow roll and just touch it on the right side. I would never bank the 14 because of about 50 bad things that could happen, scratch, wild cue ball, and the worst thing, moving the 15 ball. That's a hint fellas.

the Beard
More later. If you people want to learn something , somebody put a muzzle on that Arizona hound. (I might never had shot real straight, but I was never dumb)

Final proviso, anybody notice how I leave San Dick alone most of the time? No teasing. Thats because most of his posts are reasonable, funny, and sometimes even sensible. Its only when in competition with me does he go on tilt. Shame.

Beardmonster,

I guess someone must have logged in under your name...did you forget you gave us your hallowed [sic]decison on this shot...long ago. (post # 32, to be exact)

I never go "on tilt", except when you cast multiple aspersions, and compare yourself (in the same breath) with Ed Kelly.

I once (at age 65) beat Joyner, in a tournament. (when he was in his prime) Does that mean I didn't realize that he could have given me a hugh spot, for the cash... at that time....Come to the party Fred. ;)

You need to get your delusions of grandeur under control Beardman, sometimes I worry about your mental health.

PS..I still talk to Ed a few times a year. Next time we hook up, I'll inquire as to the fear you must have instilled in him, and his personal evaluation of your game....But don't worry, I won't spread it all around....unless you continue to piss me off...:eek:

[fred bentivegna]

Beardmonster,

I guess someone must have logged in under your name...did you forget you gave us your hallowed [sic]decison on this shot...long ago. (post # 32, to be exact)

I never go "on tilt", except when you cast multiple aspersions, and compare yourself (in the same breath) with Ed Kelly.

I once (at age 65) beat Joyner, in a tournament. (when he was in his prime) Does that mean I didn't realize that he could have given me a hugh spot, for the cash... at that time....Come to the party Fred. ;)

You need to get your delusions of grandeur under control Beardman, sometimes I worry about your mental health.

PS..I still talk to Ed a few times a year. Next time we hook up, I'll inquire as to the fear you must have instilled in him, and his personal evaluation of your game....But don't worry, I won't spread it all around....unless you continue to piss me off...:eek:

If you would have paid attn, and I'm sure you didnt, and got into the spirit of my contentions, you would have realized that I only addressed the first thing that I would do, and that I was going to elaborate further on a typical 1 pkt concept that I thought would be helpful for those interested. We know you arent interested, you and the other 99% top players who would shoot the 15 in.
You also overlooked that I didnt hijack the Concept thread, the place where the shot was first considered. I moved it over here to give it a fresh start and launch my treatise and open the situation up for in depth discussion.
Im not even going to bother stating the spot Kelly offered me at Johnston City. (It wasnt big) Your threats of talking to Kelly really having me shaking all over. Kelly and I get along real well, and maybe I should ask him how much YOU know?!
Now if you are all done "blocking," is it possible for me to get back to the business of helping our players with some solid advice, like I promised? That is one of the functions of this site, isnt it?

Beard

[NH Steve]

I'm guessing that the idea behind kicking softly at the 14 or slow rolling towards it on the right side is that to reposition it for either a more favorable straight back bank towards our pocket or even a kick bank (2-rail bank) the next time our opponent choosing to leave us on the bottom rail. The kick bank might be especially nice as you could use the balls near our side pocket as blocking balls.
Not exactly what I had in mind, but a great line of thinking nonetheless, and a good set of options. That's getting away from that linear, one-shot-at-time process, where you are always attacking off of the seemingly obvious shot, whether it's the right thing to do or not. That's putting troops in place for a later, more coordinated attack. You have put together a PLAN!

the Beard

And go figure, twister is a Chicago expatriot, lol

[SJDinPHX]

If you would have paid attn, and I'm sure you didnt, and got into the spirit of my contentions, you would have realized that I only addressed the first thing that I would do, and that I was going to elaborate further on a typical 1 pkt concept that I thought would be helpful for those interested. We know you arent interested, you and the other 99% top players who would shoot the 15 in.
You also overlooked that I didnt hijack the Concept thread, the place where the shot was first considered. I moved it over here to give it a fresh start and launch my treatise and open the situation up for in depth discussion.
Im not even going to bother stating the spot Kelly offered me at Johnston City. (It wasnt big) Your threats of talking to Kelly really having me shaking all over. Kelly and I get along real well, and maybe I should ask him how much YOU know?!
Now if you are all done "blocking," is it possible for me to get back to the business of helping our players with some solid advice, like I promised? That is one of the functions of this site, isnt it?

Beard

Please DO ask Ed who he would rather have for a partner, in a tough high $$$ game,... or be running up and down the highway with, back in the day.

He doesn't usually mince words, so I would suggest you not ask that question of him. (your delicate feewings might be bwuised).;)

Love your old stories Fred, and admire your bank pool prowess... but puhleeeeze, ease up a little on the self engrandisement regarding one pocket.

That would make your helpful [sic] tips, much more palatable to those who may question your cred's, as a TOP one pocket player.
You obviously know the game, just not as well as YOU think you do. This may come as a shock to you...but your shot selection, is quite often NOT the right choice.

All the guy's seeking to learn the game, may be confused by some of your claims, and may actually believe you actually PLAYED "mistake proof, perfect" one pocket..:eek:

I will only back off when YOU quit insulting ME...:cool: :eek: :D

[Cowboy Dennis]

This thread needs a temporary diversion so here it is. O.K. fellas, carry on.

582

[SJDinPHX]

This thread needs a temporary diversion so here it is. O.K. fellas, carry on.

582

Butt out Bensinger Breath, I am giving Freddy his monthly scolding for being such a blow hard...I'm sure he will not brag near as much now. [sic]..:rolleyes:

San <---Does not appreciate distractions, while eloquently capping (and pissing off) the Beardmonster. !.:eek: :cool: :D

[Cowboy Dennis]

Butt out Bensinger Breath, I am giving Freddy his monthly scolding for being such a blow hard...I'm sure he will not brag near as much now. [sic]..:rolleyes:

San <---Does not appreciate distractions, while eloquently capping (and pissing off) the Beardmonster. !.:eek: :cool: :D


I can always delete her:) .

[fred bentivegna]

Please DO ask Ed who he would rather have for a partner, in a tough high $$$ game,... or be running up and down the highway with, back in the day.

He doesn't usually mince words, so I would suggest you not ask that question of him. (your delicate feewings might be bwuised).;)

Love your old stories Fred, and admire your bank pool prowess... but puhleeeeze, ease up a little on the self engrandisement regarding one pocket.

That would make your helpful [sic] tips, much more palatable to those who may question your cred's, as a TOP one pocket player.
You obviously know the game, just not as well as YOU think you do. This may come as a shock to you...but your shot selection, is quite often NOT the right choice.

All the guy's seeking to learn the game, may be confused by some of your claims, and may actually believe you actually PLAYED "mistake proof, perfect" one pocket..:eek:

I will only back off when YOU quit insulting ME...:cool: :eek: :D

Back in the day, Kelly was a drunk. Of course he would rather be on the road with you, knowing your imbibing propensities. No coincidence that he also traveled with Ronnie. Their daily liquor bill was astronomical.
In so far as my shot selection quite often being the wrong choice, since I am anti-WEI table shooting, I hardly ever venture forth an opinion on those threads so which one of the one or two choices I have made in the last 2 years would you say is wrong?
What is really amazing is how well you know what I dont know.

Beard
I CANT HEAR YOU on the Watchez thread in the members section. If you can wiggle out of your Watchez authenications, (without bothering to check his "facts.") I will nominate you for Robert Gibbs job.

Another successful block of my attempt to help the troops.

[lll]

I can always delete her:) .
its i could always del eat her.:eek: btw do you think she gets her chin on the q when she shoots without destirbing balls on the table?:D

[wincardona]

I like the contrariness of the shot.:D But I don't see what the shot gains. The 4-ball banks, and the 5-ball kicks to B's pocket. What's wrong with simply rolling up on the 5-ball and having it bump the rail? B doesn't have much to do from there.

Doc
I agree that kicking the 14 ball doesn't help the shooter, if anything it hurts his chances of preserving his position. In this position the only agressive shot you have is to bank the 14 ball which is too risky, so you must dictate what your opponent must do when he comes back to the table. I would kick the 15 ball into the pocket and reposition the cue ball near the 14 ball. Thiis option would force your opponent then to deal with the respotted 15 ball, and he must be carefull in doing that. Really no mystery here.:p

Rolling up on the 5 ball only hurts your chances of winning, sorry Doc.

[SJDinPHX]

I agree that kicking the 14 ball doesn't help the shooter, if anything it hurts his chances of preserving his position. In this position the only agressive shot you have is to bank the 14 ball which is too risky, so you must dictate what your opponent must do when he comes back to the table. I would kick the 15 ball into the pocket and reposition the cue ball near the 14 ball. Thiis option would force your opponent then to deal with the respotted 15 ball, and he must be carefull in doing that. Really no mystery here.:p

Rolling up on the 5 ball only hurts your chances of winning, sorry Doc.

Just another, know nothing loser...repudiating your excellent [sic] evaluation of the shot in question.

I admit, I was wrong in saying 99%....I think it may be 99.99 % of top players, who will dare to say you are WRONG in your choice of shot Beardman !!! (how can they be so dis-respectful)

San <---Sure Kelly was a drunk, and we got along famously... but back in the day, you would have given a major body organ, to play as good as him.
San believes FB may be certifiable !.:eek: (or at least suffering from dementia, or pre-alzheimers) Very sad !!

[sappo]

so Beard, please continue with your thoughts on the correct stragety for this position. im interested to hear what you have to say regarding the overall concept. thanks Sappo

[levartze]

I would not do that unless maybe I was way ahead, because it gives the 'B' player a free opportunity to knock the balls away from my side, by leaving him right up under them. I like the position of those balls, and don't want them knocked away if the score is even, or if I was behind.

Oops, I thought it was B's shot...:eek:

[gulfportdoc]

...you would have realized that I only addressed the first thing that I would do, and that I was going to elaborate further on a typical 1 pkt concept that I thought would be helpful for those interested. We know you arent interested, you and the other 99% top players who would shoot the 15 in.
Beard, if you wouldn't shoot the 15 in, what would be your favorite choice? And what is the general concept to which you alluded?

Doc

[gulfportdoc]

I agree that kicking the 14 ball doesn't help the shooter, if anything it hurts his chances of preserving his position. In this position the only agressive shot you have is to bank the 14 ball which is too risky, so you must dictate what your opponent must do when he comes back to the table. I would kick the 15 ball into the pocket and reposition the cue ball near the 14 ball. Thiis option would force your opponent then to deal with the respotted 15 ball, and he must be carefull in doing that. Really no mystery here.:p

Rolling up on the 5 ball only hurts your chances of winning, sorry Doc.
My choice was to make the 15 rail-first, and leave the CB on the short rail. However, that does leave two possible shots to B's pocket. But rolling up on the 5, and staying behind the 9-ball leaves no possible shots. So how is that bad? The only danger is over rolling and leaving a 2-railer on the 14.

Doc

[philwelch]

I've been a member here for a couple of years and really enjoy read through the interesting threads and now it seems as we're finally getting to some meat and potatoes and the guy who wants to reveal a concept, is be beat down for wanted to help us inquiring minds. SJD, if you don't want to hear Fred's strategy, fine, go to another thread but please, let those of us who aren't as gifted, clever, or articulate as you, enjoy Fred's lesson. By the way,
Fred has probably played more one pocket in his life than he has bank pool.
I've personally seen him matched up against Bugs, Efren, Strawberry, and a host of other great one pocket players, so when Fred speaks I for one am interested in what he's going to say. Fred, please continue.

[SJDinPHX]

I've been a member here for a couple of years and really enjoy read through the interesting threads and now it seems as we're finally getting to some meat and potatoes and the guy who wants to reveal a concept, is be beat down for wanted to help us inquiring minds. SJD, if you don't want to hear Fred's strategy, fine, go to another thread but please, let those of us who aren't as gifted, clever, or articulate as you, enjoy Fred's lesson. By the way,
Fred has probably played more one pocket in his life than he has bank pool.
I've personally seen him matched up against Bugs, Efren, Strawberry, and a host of other great one pocket players, so when Fred speaks I for one am interested in what he's going to say. Fred, please continue.

Phil,

I am not surprised he played more 1P than bank's... if he wanted to be in action more than once a month.

However, I am surprised, that as well as you know Fred, that you think he needs "homeboy support".

He has been outstanding in his own defense, and has thrown many viscious verbal darts in my direction. Most of my banter is designed to get him to cut down on the brag, and gig him back a little...He does not take it well.

I will agree, Fred has lots of gem's to share with some of us, who may not be as familiar with the game, as he is.
However, occasionally, some of the better player's may try to keep him from going overboard, with his God-given perfectionism,[sic] and his refusal to admit to ANY lapses in judgement...EVER !!!

However, as a Bensinger alumni...he did recieve excellent training in that particular area of denial..;)

So Fred, please continue.

[wincardona]

My choice was to make the 15 rail-first, and leave the CB on the short rail. However, that does leave two possible shots to B's pocket. But rolling up on the 5, and staying behind the 9-ball leaves no possible shots. So how is that bad? The only danger is over rolling and leaving a 2-railer on the 14.

Doc

Doc, in this position your goal is to preserve your position, by rolling up on the 5 ball you are playing into his hand by making it easy for your opponent to congest balls on your side of the table. There really isn't anywhere you can put him where he will not have an easy escape, plus he will worsen your position.

[wincardona]

I agree that kicking the 14 ball doesn't help the shooter, if anything it hurts his chances of preserving his position. In this position the only agressive shot you have is to bank the 14 ball which is too risky, so you must dictate what your opponent must do when he comes back to the table. I would kick the 15 ball into the pocket and reposition the cue ball near the 14 ball. Thiis option would force your opponent then to deal with the respotted 15 ball, and he must be carefull in doing that. Really no mystery here.:p

Rolling up on the 5 ball only hurts your chances of winning, sorry Doc.

Trailing 6 to 2 you want to put as many balls in play as possible, particularly when the balls are positioned in your favor as they are in this lay out. By pocketing the 15 ball your opponent has to defend against all possible shots that he may leave you plus the 15 ball.

I usually agree with The Beards choice but this time I don't see any benefit in kicking at the 14 ball.:confused:

The 14 ball favors the shooter in this position, why kick at it and leave it for your opponent to reposition it and congest balls on your side?

Look at Cowboys post # 8 on the original thread "correct strategy", he nailed it.

[Cowboy Dennis]

Trailing 6 to 2

I usually agree with The Beards choice but this time I don't see any benefit in kicking at the 14 ball.:confused:



Look at Cowboys post # 8 on the original thread "correct strategy", he nailed it.


Bill,

Freddy changed the scenario to the game being even, not the shooter being down 6-2.

And to all, don't just read post #8 in the "correct stragety" thread, read #80 also. It's enlightening.

Dennis

[lll]

Bill,

Freddy changed the scenario to the game being even, not the shooter being down 6-2.

And to all, don't just read post #8 in the "correct stragety" thread, read #80 also. It's enlightening.

Dennis
dennis if you keep blowing your own horn sjd will start coming after you too :D maybe you are trying to distract sjd from targeting the beard so we can hear what the beard has to say. good move :cool:

[NH Steve]

Okay, the score is 2-6, the shooter 'A' being the one behind in the game, and this is the layout. The obvious shot to most is to pocket the 15. Freddy has said that he would not do that -- he would go against the grain and would instead bump the right side of the 14 ball lightly. Several of us are curious about Freddy's plan.

Here is the original layout:
http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AUHK3BReK2CYLc2DPbX2EYpm4FTqJ4GNmM4HWTK2IUIe4JIXM4KQgK4LLBM2MXUe1NOSi1OYWO4PCjM3Qcxs@


Most players would just pocket the 15, leaving this:
http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AUHK3BReK2CYLc2DPbX2EYpm4FTqJ4GNmM4HWTK2IUIe4JIXM4KQgK4LLBM2MXUe1NOSi4OATV1PRUb3Qcxs4RdGr1qQigNow_it_would_be_player_B_turn&ZZ@


Let's say Freddy bumps the 14 ball and leaves this instead. I'm curious as to how the game could develop differently from here. (And Dick, let's hold the criticism until at least after Freddy has explained what he likes about the 14 vs the 15 -- the rest of us inquiring minds want to know. You can prepare your post ahead of time :), but please save it for after Freddy has wei-ed in)
http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AUHK3BReK2CYLc2DPbX2EYpm4FTqJ4GNmM4HWTK2IUIe4JIXM4KQgK4LLBM2MXUe1NNES1OYWO1PSCe3Qcxs4RdWu4qLkBThis_would_be_the_approximate_layout_if_you_bumped_the_14_instead._Player_B_to_shoot.&ZZ@

[lll]

steve you have once again showed your talents.:) confict resolution, get us back on track,. well done:) :)

[wincardona]

Bill,

Freddy changed the scenario to the game being even, not the shooter being down 6-2.

And to all, don't just read post #8 in the "correct stragety" thread, read #80 also. It's enlightening.

Dennis
In either case, down 6 to 2 or even, the shooter must choose the shot thats best in terms of protecting his position.

Its obvious that the shooter has the superior position, so his plan would be to try to look for something offensive if available. If not then his alternative should be to shoot the shot that will protect his position, if available. Like I said before, there really isn't a mystery to situations like this one, why try to force something that's not there.:eek:

[SJDinPHX]

This is probably the simplest WEI presentation ever laid out. However, apparently I am outnumbered by the masses... waiting to hear from one of the exalted master's of the game, and their perfect solution to this major dilema.

How could I ever have doubted the power of the "CVMF"
Please Beardman, do not let me cause you to desert your minion's...thisty for the knowledge that only you can provide.

Speak to them, lest I further poison their minds.. :rolleyes:

[lll]

fred, i also want to know why you would not make the 15. i do see the strength on coming on the 14. but dont see why the 15 is a bad shot. as for planning ahead most of the balls are in my favor . the 15 turns my opponent on the 15 instead of rearranging my favorable position. if he makes it im in trouble because his neaxt shot will surely rearrange my position. HOWEVER if he misses we will playing back and forth on repositioning the 15 while any mistake leaves me with my balls ready to be run out.

[wincardona]

In either case, down 6 to 2 or even, the shooter must choose the shot thats best in terms of protecting his position.

Its obvious that the shooter has the superior position, so his plan would be to try to look for something offensive if available. If not then his alternative should be to shoot the shot that will protect his position, if available. Like I said before, there really isn't a mystery to situations like this one, why try to force something that's not there.:eek:

If we have played the game of one pocket for a substantial time (years) then we have been confronted with situations similiar to this one many times. It is not only important to develope a superior position it is equally important to have the understanding in choosing the best shot to protect your position. This position like all positions has a shelf life, and it is important to uderstand how to take advantage of these transeint positions.

One of the many benefits of One Pocket .Org is that anyone can learn from the knowledgeable posters, and when someone has something to share it would be best served if they would enlighten instead of tune in tomorrow for the conclusion yada yada yada.

[gulfportdoc]

Doc, in this position your goal is to preserve your position, by rolling up on the 5 ball you are playing into his hand by making it easy for your opponent to congest balls on your side of the table. There really isn't anywhere you can put him where he will not have an easy escape, plus he will worsen your position.
That's a valid point if we're tied 4-4. But if I'm behind at 2-6, I've got to get some of those balls which are on my side of the table into a makeable position. They're dying on the vine where they are. I think it's better to let him rather than I force some of them out of there. Then I might get a shot at one them.

Doc

[wincardona]

That's a valid point if we're tied 4-4. But if I'm behind at 2-6, I've got to get some of those balls which are on my side of the table into a makeable position. They're dying on the vine where they are. I think it's better to let him rather than I force some of them out of there. Then I might get a shot at one them.

Doc

Maybe i'm missing something here, but the balls are in a makeable position for you. Now you have to try to play with the strategy that is best suited for you to possibly end up with a shot.

[fred bentivegna]

The shot proposed by Androd on post #57 in the Correct Strategy thread is the basis for my plan. I'm surprised that he is the only one to suggest it. The shot goes, is easy to execute and has very little downside. Just go rail first with low right hand draw, medium speed, hit the 15 full in the face.

But I said I would not shoot the 15 first, right? My reasoning: If the shot does go I will probably be shooting out of the corner a goodly distance away from my balls on the long rail. Its very possible to cut the 4 down the rail, and go across the table with the q ball for position on the 5 or the 9, but to me I'd rather leave that runout to some sharpshooter that likes to make a lot of hard shots. To me I have a rule that would be a good idea to use: I only want to make ONE hard shot in order to get to a good position to run out. Kick banking the 15 and having a full table, 45 degree slice on the 4 aint my idea of a good time. Ok, that covers making the 15.

The other things that could happen kick banking the 15, is I hang it, leave it close to my pocket, or not so close to my pocket, but on my side. (I would have to annihilate the execution in order to sell out) If I hang it, my opponent will just shoot it in and leave me in front of the pocket, with no positive return shot. If I leave it close to my pocket or not so close to my pocket, my opponent should have little trouble removing it and leaving no good return shot. The difficulty of actually scoring the shot is the main reason I would not shoot it first, and the main reason I would choose such a passive shot as rolling into the 14. Now the question becomes, when and why would I shoot it later?
Answer on my next post.

Beard




http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AUPG3BQoI2CYLc2DPbX2EYpm4FTqJ4GNmM4HWTK2IUIe3JNmL4KQgK3LLBL2MXUe1NLxN1OYvT4PDII3Qcxs1RTxU4kDAI1kcAE1kalP1kWSk3kSaK3kSiK3kSJK3kSaN@[/QUOTE]@"noresize="noresize"marginheight="0"marginwidth="0"frameborder="no"width="600"height="400"></iframe@[/CUETABLE]

[lll]

fred you did not answer why you wouldnt make the 15 in the pocket its close to so it gets spotted and the q ends up on the shot rail near the 14.so i ask why wouldnt you make the 15 as described and originally suggested?

[vapros]

Freddy, you have explained why you don't like kick-banking the 15, but not why you don't like knocking it in the pocket and rolling on the 14. Have you painted yourself into a corner? And if you pass up the 15 now, why does the question become how and when to deal with it later? Why would the opportunity return at all? As your opponent, I might well knock it in myself, after you roll on the 14, and slide the cb along the long rail to the other short rail. Spot up the 15.

I keep looking for your guru, AB, to speak up and support your shot, but it doesn't look like he's going to. What's all this about watching for your next post? Why not now? :o :confused: :confused:

[SJDinPHX]

fred you did not answer why you wouldnt make the 15 in the pocket its close to so it gets spotted and the q ends up on the shot rail near the 14.so i ask why wouldnt you make the 15 as described and originally suggested?

WHAT lll SAID ????

I'm off to commentate a little on the DCT finale...ITs 10 ball, which I obviously know more about than one pocket.

Scott and Mitch are still alive..final's around 5 PST..give a peek...great stream and audio !

http://desertclassictour.com/videos.html

[lll]

this from dennis in post #81 in the correct strategy thread
I'm fairly certain that this will be my last post on this layout, it's actually one of the easiest decisions you'll ever need to make in a game.

How else can you move a ball almost 7 feet by moving it 3 inches?

Although the original poster does not state it, I'm assuming the 15 is in the jaws or close to in the jaws negating any attempt to kick-bank it. No matter how you roll the 15 in, off the side rail or shooting straight at it, you'll leave a ball on the spot that he has to deal with.

He can't leave you a three-railer on the three ball so he has to cross the 15 with the cueball and put the cueball on or near your side of the table.

There's really no further need to look at this layout anymore. Look at page 4 and tell us what you would do from there? Most good players would move the ball on the spot. Good, that's what you want him to do.

Dennis.



ok guys gotta watch the end of the new england vs. ravens game. see y'all later. (doc and vapros did i say that right:) ) lll

[jay helfert]

Okay, the score is 2-6, the shooter 'A' being the one behind in the game, and this is the layout. The obvious shot to most is to pocket the 15. Freddy has said that he would not do that -- he would go against the grain and would instead bump the right side of the 14 ball lightly. Several of us are curious about Freddy's plan.

Here is the original layout:
http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AUHK3BReK2CYLc2DPbX2EYpm4FTqJ4GNmM4HWTK2IUIe4JIXM4KQgK4LLBM2MXUe1NOSi1OYWO4PCjM3Qcxs@


Most players would just pocket the 15, leaving this:
http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AUHK3BReK2CYLc2DPbX2EYpm4FTqJ4GNmM4HWTK2IUIe4JIXM4KQgK4LLBM2MXUe1NOSi4OATV1PRUb3Qcxs4RdGr1qQigNow_it_would_be_player_B_turn&ZZ@


Let's say Freddy bumps the 14 ball and leaves this instead. I'm curious as to how the game could develop differently from here. (And Dick, let's hold the criticism until at least after Freddy has explained what he likes about the 14 vs the 15 -- the rest of us inquiring minds want to know. You can prepare your post ahead of time :), but please save it for after Freddy has wei-ed in)
http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AUHK3BReK2CYLc2DPbX2EYpm4FTqJ4GNmM4HWTK2IUIe4JIXM4KQgK4LLBM2MXUe1NNES1OYWO1PSCe3Qcxs4RdWu4qLkBThis_would_be_the_approximate_layout_if_you_bumped_the_14_instead._Player_B_to_shoot.&ZZ@

I like making the fifteen ball and leaving the cue ball on the end rail. I know my opponent can now play a safe off the spotted fifteen, but sometimes people make mistakes in spots like this, especially when shooting off the end rail. I want to give him a chance to make a mistake and maybe leave me a bank where I can now get behind the other balls and get back into the game.

I know I'm not (and never have been) a top player but I had a pretty good won-loss record gambling at One Pocket so I'm not a total duck.

[vapros]

'Total duck', the man said!! Did you pick up on that, Dick? :D :D

[vapros]

I moved over to the 10 ball Desert Classic Tournament and guess what? There's SJD on the mike, doing the commentary! Somebody noted that, later in the evening, there will be models in Victoria's Secret garments doing a show for the locals. Don't know if there is any connection. Probably just a coincidence . . . :rolleyes: :cool: ;)

What do the models wear in the wintertime? Anybody know?

[fred bentivegna]

Too much poison has gone into this well. Do I have to answer what amounts to a two page dissertation in one sentence? Thinking thru all the possibilities aint always K.I.S.S. Im beginning to question ever doing anything like this again. I dont mind being challenged, that's why I did this, but taking fire and ridicule somehow dont seem like much of a reward for my efforts.

Im trying to get each part of the equation absorbed in order, but if nobody sees any value in kickbanking the 15 -- EVER -- my solution doesnt have much of a chance of being understood.

I'll try again in the morning.

Beard

Kipling...."If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs..."

Ok, I'll keep trying, think of the 15 ball as a sleeper cell.

[gulfportdoc]

Maybe i'm missing something here, but the balls are in a makeable position for you. Now you have to try to play with the strategy that is best suited for you to possibly end up with a shot.
A's balls are makeable if B has a death wish and leaves the CB for him in the upper right hand quarter of the table. Otherwise, none of the balls go from the foot of the table to A's pocket (banking lanes blocked), whereas 3 balls bank from a CB position at the foot of the table to B's pocket. A can cluster the balls all he wants up into the corner, but until some are moved out of there, he needs 6, while B only needs 2.

Doc

[lll]

Too much poison has gone into this well. Do I have to answer what amounts to a two page dissertation in one sentence? Thinking thru all the possibilities aint always K.I.S.S. Im beginning to question ever doing anything like this again. I dont mind being challenged, that's why I did this, but taking fire and ridicule somehow dont seem like much of a reward for my efforts.

Im trying to get each part of the equation absorbed in order, but if nobody sees any value in kickbanking the 15 -- EVER -- my solution doesnt have much of a chance of being understood.

I'll try again in the morning.

Beard

Kipling...."If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs..."

Ok, I'll keep trying, think of the 15 ball as a sleeper cell.
freddy start a new thread to show your point rather than wading thru this quagmire imho

[wincardona]

A's balls are makeable if B has a death wish and leaves the CB for him in the upper right hand quarter of the table. Otherwise, none of the balls go from the foot of the table to A's pocket (banking lanes blocked), whereas 3 balls bank from a CB position at the foot of the table to B's pocket. A can cluster the balls all he wants up into the corner, but until some are moved out of there, he needs 6, while B only needs 2.

Doc
I understand the situation, A has to hope to make a two railer or some other low % shot to get behind the balls, but that's what A should be playing for. A got behind 6 to 2 and it's not going to be easy for him to win facing this kind of deficit, but the balls are in position if he is able to make a circus shot of some kind. If he never gets that opportunity, or if the balls are rearranged, then he will try to win with another strategy.

[One Pocket Ghost]

They're dying on the vine

Doc



Doc......That was a VERY nice, and lyrical turn of phrase you came up with in your post today - poetic props to you!...I will appropriate and use it at some future time...:)...

And lets not forget the famous Bobby Frost poem, as it does apply here...:D...


Whose balls these are I think I know.
His hole is in the corner though;
He will not see me moving here
To make his woods fill up with snow.

Robert Frost, Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening
US poet (1874 - 1963)


- Sir Ghost

PS, I'm not sure, but I think it was Bobby Frost who first coined the name "snow" to refer to the cueball.....:D

[wincardona]

"I have a critique of the situation, hashed over so far incorrectly, on the Correct Strategy thread. I have been saving it. When I go into the theory of it, some will begin to understand some of the deeper underlying concepts of 1 pockee that go unobserved. "Thats a promise I made earlier and I am going to fulfill it now:
I want to discuss a valuable concept often overlooked. This particular layout isnt a perfect example of what I wanted to go over, but its close enough. The key ball is the 15. The problem is what to do with it, and when. Rather than just immediately give up what I know should be done, and why, I would rather get a little feedback first. I would like to avoid either blatant knocks, which I dont think would happen in this case, but I also dont want to hear after the solution, "so and so has always done that," and "Of course, who dont know that."
What I'm talking about is what Artie has been saying all along, about knowing why you are doing something, and what is your plan? Can anyone describe a plan here? Lets assume the score is about even.

Beard

Http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AUPG3BQoI2CYLc2DPbX2EYpm4FTqJ4GNmM4HWTK2IUIe4JGTJ4KQgK4LKDK2MXUe1NOSh1OYnR4PDAI3Qcxs@3AUPG3BQoI2CYLc2DPbX2EYpm4FTqJ4GNmM4HWTK2IUIe4JGTJ4KQgK4LKDK2MXUe1NOSh1OYnR4PDAI3Qcxs4kDAI1kboI1kRMe@3AUPG3BQoI2CYLc2DPbX2EYpm4FTqJ4GNmM4HWTK2IUIe4JGTJ4KQgK4LKDK2MXUe1NNEX1OYnR1PQvd3Qcxs@
Of course it would be better to have a plan, instead of shooting the first shot that comes to mind.

If I were behind 6 to 2 or if the game was tied at 4 to 4 my plan would be the same in this situation. The balls favor A who is at the table, so A should be thinking how to get behind the balls that are open on his side of the table. I would be thinking of using the 14 ball to do this or if I pocketed the 15 ball I would then have not only another ball to achieve my goal, but a ball that may lead me to the 14 ball to get behind the balls on my side. So by pocketing the 15 ball I increase my chances of successfully completing my goal.

Does that sound like a good plan? If not can someone offer a better one?:D

[SJDinPHX]

Of course it would be better to have a plan, instead of shooting the first shot that comes to mind.

If I were behind 6 to 2 or if the game was tied at 4 to 4 my plan would be the same in this situation. The balls favor A who is at the table, so A should be thinking how to get behind the balls that are open on his side of the table. I would be thinking of using the 14 ball to do this or if I pocketed the 15 ball I would then have not only another ball to achieve my goal, but a ball that may lead me to the 14 ball to get behind the balls on my side. So by pocketing the 15 ball I increase my chances of successfully completing my goal.

Does that sound like a good plan? If not can someone offer a better one?:D

Point well made Billy...and readily excepted by all but the most hard-headednesslyish types among us..:eek:

[Cowboy Dennis]

hard-headednesslyish eek:


THE WHAT???????????