Artie B.

[gulfportdoc]

I was pleasantly surprised and impressed when I met Artie in Galveston last year. Like everyone else, I had plodded through most of his posts on this forum, and concluded that, although there was within me a nagging suspicion that this guy was the real McCoy, nevertheless my conclusion was that he was an insufferable boor.

When we met, I was immediately disarmed by how soft-spoken and unassuming he was. The guy was pleasant to a fault, and very complimentary about other players. What struck me was his unnatural ability to concentrate. I’m reminded of the story of a famous money match where Buddy Hall was leaned over an important shot. Right at that point, a huge June bug landed on the back of his neck. Buddy never flinched, and played the shot flawlessly. After the game a friend asked Buddy how in the hell he wasn’t bothered by the June bug landing on his neck. Buddy looked confused and said, “What June bug?”

When I watched Artie play or even observe others as they played, it’s almost as if he went into a trance. I’d give big money to have that power of concentration.

One afternoon we got to discussing some shot or other. We found an open table, and before I knew it, I was getting an open-ended lesson. There was no talk of a fee. He gave me advice for at least an hour, at which point the table was needed for a match. There is no doubt in my mind that the “lesson” would have continued for several hours.

I’m sure that all the talk about $thousands an hour for lessons was actually directed at top pros who are already experienced champions at other pool games, who with some coaching by Artie could become top one-pocket players-- e.g. Archer, SVB, Souquet, etc.

I’m not an accomplished player as is Dick, Billy or Freddy. But it didn’t take me long to realize that I was being treated to a demonstration of a level of one-pocket thought which would have never been possible for me to acquire on my own.

The purpose of mentioning my only personal first-hand experience with the man, is to suggest that, based upon what I witnessed, he could certainly have been as invincible as many have related that he was.

Doc

[mr3cushion]

I was pleasantly surprised and impressed when I met Artie in Galveston last year. Like everyone else, I had plodded through most of his posts on this forum, and concluded that, although there was within me a nagging suspicion that this guy was the real McCoy, nevertheless my conclusion was that he was an insufferable boor.

When we met, I was immediately disarmed by how soft-spoken and unassuming he was. The guy was pleasant to a fault, and very complimentary about other players. What struck me was his unnatural ability to concentrate. I’m reminded of the story of a famous money match where Buddy Hall was leaned over an important shot. Right at that point, a huge June bug landed on the back of his neck. Buddy never flinched, and played the shot flawlessly. After the game a friend asked Buddy how in the hell he wasn’t bothered by the June bug landing on his neck. Buddy looked confused and said, “What June bug?”

When I watched Artie play or even observe others as they played, it’s almost as if he went into a trance. I’d give big money to have that power of concentration.

One afternoon we got to discussing some shot or other. We found an open table, and before I knew it, I was getting an open-ended lesson. There was no talk of a fee. He gave me advice for at least an hour, at which point the table was needed for a match. There is no doubt in my mind that the “lesson” would have continued for several hours.

I’m sure that all the talk about $thousands an hour for lessons was actually directed at top pros who are already experienced champions at other pool games, who with some coaching by Artie could become top one-pocket players-- e.g. Archer, SVB, Souquet, etc.

I’m not an accomplished player as is Dick, Billy or Freddy. But it didn’t take me long to realize that I was being treated to a demonstration of a level of one-pocket thought which would have never been possible for me to acquire on my own.

The purpose of mentioning my only personal first-hand experience with the man, is to suggest that, based upon what I witnessed, he could certainly have been as invincible as many have related that he was.

Doc

Doc; Extremely diplomatic and eloquent as always. PERFECT!

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"

[blackeee]

I was pleasantly surprised and impressed when I met Artie in Galveston last year. Like everyone else, I had plodded through most of his posts on this forum, and concluded that, although there was within me a nagging suspicion that this guy was the real McCoy, nevertheless my conclusion was that he was an insufferable boor.

When we met, I was immediately disarmed by how soft-spoken and unassuming he was. The guy was pleasant to a fault, and very complimentary about other players. What struck me was his unnatural ability to concentrate. I’m reminded of the story of a famous money match where Buddy Hall was leaned over an important shot. Right at that point, a huge June bug landed on the back of his neck. Buddy never flinched, and played the shot flawlessly. After the game a friend asked Buddy how in the hell he wasn’t bothered by the June bug landing on his neck. Buddy looked confused and said, “What June bug?”

When I watched Artie play or even observe others as they played, it’s almost as if he went into a trance. I’d give big money to have that power of concentration.

One afternoon we got to discussing some shot or other. We found an open table, and before I knew it, I was getting an open-ended lesson. There was no talk of a fee. He gave me advice for at least an hour, at which point the table was needed for a match. There is no doubt in my mind that the “lesson” would have continued for several hours.

I’m sure that all the talk about $thousands an hour for lessons was actually directed at top pros who are already experienced champions at other pool games, who with some coaching by Artie could become top one-pocket players-- e.g. Archer, SVB, Souquet, etc.

I’m not an accomplished player as is Dick, Billy or Freddy. But it didn’t take me long to realize that I was being treated to a demonstration of a level of one-pocket thought which would have never been possible for me to acquire on my own.

The purpose of mentioning my only personal first-hand experience with the man, is to suggest that, based upon what I witnessed, he could certainly have been as invincible as many have related that he was.

Doc


Got a good roll there Doc!

[androd]

Yes I saw him there also. He is a nice, quite, soft spoken, unassuming gentleman until he gets behind the wheel of a keyboard. :p
Rod.

[usblues]

I wonder if theres people in China who spell like Artie.I have never seen the English language brutalized as he can do.He sure makes up for it,I would give anything for a table and an hour of his time,cheers,Bob

[fred bentivegna]

I was pleasantly surprised and impressed when I met Artie in Galveston last year. Like everyone else, I had plodded through most of his posts on this forum, and concluded that, although there was within me a nagging suspicion that this guy was the real McCoy, nevertheless my conclusion was that he was an insufferable boor.

When we met, I was immediately disarmed by how soft-spoken and unassuming he was. The guy was pleasant to a fault, and very complimentary about other players. What struck me was his unnatural ability to concentrate. I’m reminded of the story of a famous money match where Buddy Hall was leaned over an important shot. Right at that point, a huge June bug landed on the back of his neck. Buddy never flinched, and played the shot flawlessly. After the game a friend asked Buddy how in the hell he wasn’t bothered by the June bug landing on his neck. Buddy looked confused and said, “What June bug?”

When I watched Artie play or even observe others as they played, it’s almost as if he went into a trance. I’d give big money to have that power of concentration.

One afternoon we got to discussing some shot or other. We found an open table, and before I knew it, I was getting an open-ended lesson. There was no talk of a fee. He gave me advice for at least an hour, at which point the table was needed for a match. There is no doubt in my mind that the “lesson” would have continued for several hours.

I’m sure that all the talk about $thousands an hour for lessons was actually directed at top pros who are already experienced champions at other pool games, who with some coaching by Artie could become top one-pocket players-- e.g. Archer, SVB, Souquet, etc.

I’m not an accomplished player as is Dick, Billy or Freddy. But it didn’t take me long to realize that I was being treated to a demonstration of a level of one-pocket thought which would have never been possible for me to acquire on my own.

The purpose of mentioning my only personal first-hand experience with the man, is to suggest that, based upon what I witnessed, he could certainly have been as invincible as many have related that he was.

Doc

Dockie, you were astute enough to land on the man's long suit, concentration. It was illustrated to a fault when he played Grady the 2nd time at my joint, North Shore Billiards, the #2 action spot next to the Rack in Detroit. The first time they played was in Frisco, Grady beat him. That's the match that a fellow on here keeps referring to, using it to somehow discredit Artie's speed. Artie was no more than 21 years old, and that was his first road trip. Grady wasnt "Grady" at that time either, to be fair. But considering the circumstances, the match was relatively meaningless. The rest of that story is that Artie didnt book another loser on that trip and trapped a passel of players and went back to Chicago with a giant package.
When he played Grady for 48 or 50 or 60 hours, whatever, one of Grady's backers, TR MacIntosh (he is still alive and well in Fla and I have his pho number for any pool policeman that chronically seems to require verification), said after the match, "I will never again stake anybody against a guy that wont even take a p*ss!" Artie never had sat down, talked to anybody, or ate anything the whole 2+ days. Just a couple of coffee's and a few, a very few, pee pee's.

I once played him for a couple days at North Shore, I didnt win, and I did keep up with him, but he was on the 'natch and I was seriously chemically enhanced.

To impugn the credibility of the OnePocket HOF by claiming there are dozens of players that belong in there before him, is reprehensible.

And to clear up one more little falsehood, I was well-known in the pool world -- and that would include areas outside of the Midwest and Chicago -- long before the advent of the Internet.

And believe me, I consider it a brutal waste of my time to continually have to defend myself and my reputation against unfounded, unresearched, unfair, suspicions and aspersions. I would much rather participate in the original charter of this org.; maintaining one pocket's history, promoting the game, honoring those who fought the good fight, and passing on the accumulated knowledge to the newcomers and the interested. I believe I can, and would like to, make contributions in all those areas rather than to continually jerk myself off on defense, and then remain in a constant state of infuriation.

Beard

[gulfportdoc]

Fred, you love the aggravation.;) I believe that if you were sitting with a group of angels from heaven, you'd soon dash out to find a place where people were arguing and fuming...

Doc

[vapros]

Freddie, fer crissake give it a rest. You don't have to 'continually defend yourself and your reputation' and I don't know why you feel that you do. Arguments like this one never convince anyone of anything. They just go on and on and on . . . Big egos have always been a pain in the ass.

As I have mentioned before, in my days as a competitor, bowling was my game. At many events I would be one of only a few guys on the lanes not wearing a shirt with my name embroidered across the back, and I have been asked about that several times. I had a stock response, as follows: If you're somebody, they will know you. You don't need your name on your shirt. And if you're nobody, why show the world how to spell it?

Don't you have something else you would rather do? Good - go and do it. Your reputation and your digestion and this forum will all benefit. :rolleyes:

[fred bentivegna]

Freddie, fer crissake give it a rest. You don't have to 'continually defend yourself and your reputation' and I don't know why you feel that you do. Arguments like this one never convince anyone of anything. They just go on and on and on . . . Big egos have always been a pain in the ass.

As I have mentioned before, in my days as a competitor, bowling was my game. At many events I would be one of only a few guys on the lanes not wearing a shirt with my name embroidered across the back, and I have been asked about that several times. I had a stock response, as follows: If you're somebody, they will know you. You don't need your name on your shirt. And if you're nobody, why show the world how to spell it?

Don't you have something else you would rather do? Good - go and do it. Your reputation and your digestion and this forum will all benefit. :rolleyes:


What you fail to realize and I guess I must make it clear once again. Firstly, after 50 years in the underworld I am perfectly content with myself and under normal conditions I could live without my name on the back of my shirt. However, my personal situation has changed. My livelihood no longer depends on my fleeting pool talents. I write pool books and make DVDs to survive. Inside those pool books and DVDs I tell old time pool road stories and pool hustling history, and those things are some of the biggest draws for my sales. I cannot allow anyone to disparage my legitimacy or my credibility. If I am thought of as a bullsh*tter or a phoney how do you think that is going to reflect on my sales? Anybody with good grift sense would realize that and lay off the knocks. For example: How many of the One Pocket T-shirts that I made a big investment in do you think I have sold on the forums since a member kept making mention of using them to line his dog's bed? The answer is zero. Is that funny? I dont think so. And it aint like I copied the Ghost either. I've had a line of pool shirts since 2005. My 2nd banking DVD sells big all over the country, but it doesnt catch a drizzle on my own forum. Is that a coincidence that I should ignore?

Anybody that knows me, and apparently you don't, knows that I am not any sort of egomaniac. I aint shy either, however. I know who I am, and dont need stroking any more than anybody else. But to me this is business and you should be able to understand that. It's not about how many people know me, it's about what they know me, as.

Finally, you can look up the thousands of posts I have made on here and AZ and you will find very little of me STARTING sh*t with anyone. I believe in live and let live, with an emphasis on the latter.

Beard

All anybody has to do to end this is leave me, and those things about me, Artie, Chicago, Bensingers, the f*ck alone.

[usblues]

Freddie,I dont know anyone except for 1 guy who rags you.Pretty good odds,chances you are you who say you are.That being said,lets turn the little bit of bad action to your liking.Maybe it keeps you more relevent.Maybe it keeps you remembering stuff to keep the record right.Maybe it boils you into some kind of moves you usually wouldnt make that are beneficial.Maybe it makes you more friends/sales than not.Maybe.............you get my drift,just trying to turn this thing around to your advantage.I know its hard as I still have a fearsome temper at 60....just trying to do what I can to help us out.Your not alone.Most folks here like you both.I still remember your commentary with RA and Grady on a Buddy/Ray M.1p match from a hundred years ago.Keep on keepin on,Bob

[fred bentivegna]

Freddie,I dont know anyone except for 1 guy who rags you.Pretty good odds,chances you are you who say you are.That being said,lets turn the little bit of bad action to your liking.Maybe it keeps you more relevent.Maybe it keeps you remembering stuff to keep the record right.Maybe it boils you into some kind of moves you usually wouldnt make that are beneficial.Maybe it makes you more friends/sales than not.Maybe.............you get my drift,just trying to turn this thing around to your advantage.I know its hard as I still have a fearsome temper at 60....just trying to do what I can to help us out.Your not alone.Most folks here like you both.I still remember your commentary with RA and Grady on a Buddy/Ray M.1p match from a hundred years ago.Keep on keepin on,Bob


You might be right. I have just recently, and only because of the steam I took regarding the misconceptions regarding it, updated the infamous "beat list." I broke it down into matches I won for money and matches I won in a tournament. Along with, when I remembered, the particular type games we played.
I only included the tournament win thing in order to get Eddie Kelly's name on the list.
I had originally put the list up because I noticed Grady had a "beat list" on his exhibition brochures. It was intended to be just a conversation piece, but it has drawn so much controversy on here that I have had to, more times than not, defend it.
I spent a lot of time upgrading it cause I aint no web genius, so it looks much better, and like you said I would never have bothered if I wasnt in heat.

Beard
Link to the upgrade:
http://www.bankingwiththebeard.com/?page_id=14

You are also right in that I take heat much quicker at 69 than I did at 25.

[usblues]

Though we have big differences what we have in common was choosing a life at an early age that was shall we say not the easy way out.Much harder than the 9-5 and the wife and kids.A freakin roller-coaster most of the time.Better to wake up and face uncertainty than drudgery.To be young and alive in the 70's and not go for the gold was a copout in my book.Yours too.It made us feel alive like no straight life could do.Landing hard with no cushion breaks most men afterawhile and forces them to compromise.Not us.He knows that too.We all have some cross to bear and he's yours for now.At least you can discuss yours.Im a little embarrassed here with mine.Good luck,Bob

[SJDinPHX]

What you fail to realize and I guess I must make it clear once again. Firstly, after 50 years in the underworld I am perfectly content with myself and under normal conditions I could live without my name on the back of my shirt. However, my personal situation has changed. My livelihood no longer depends on my fleeting pool talents. I write pool books and make DVDs to survive. Inside those pool books and DVDs I tell old time pool road stories and pool hustling history, and those things are some of the biggest draws for my sales. I cannot allow anyone to disparage my legitimacy or my credibility. If I am thought of as a bullsh*tter or a phoney how do you think that is going to reflect on my sales? Anybody with good grift sense would realize that and lay off the knocks. For example: How many of the One Pocket T-shirts that I made a big investment in do you think I have sold on the forums since a member kept making mention of using them to line his dog's bed? The answer is zero. Is that funny? I dont think so. And it aint like I copied the Ghost either. I've had a line of pool shirts since 2005. My 2nd banking DVD sells big all over the country, but it doesnt catch a drizzle on my own forum. Is that a coincidence that I should ignore?

Anybody that knows me, and apparently you don't, knows that I am not any sort of egomaniac. I aint shy either, however. I know who I am, and dont need stroking any more than anybody else. But to me this is business and you should be able to understand that. It's not about how many people know me, it's about what they know me, as.

Finally, you can look up the thousands of posts I have made on here and AZ and you will find very little of me STARTING sh*t with anyone. I believe in live and let live, with an emphasis on the latter.

Beard

All anybody has to do to end this is leave me, and those things about me, Artie, Chicago, Bensingers, the f*ck alone.

Congratulations Fred,

Once more your excellent literary skills, have (with craftilly worded replies) tried to make me look like an ogre, bent on destroying any credibility you may have... or even your right to exist.

We obviously have a need to retaliate at anything the other says, in order to prove the other guy is a complete jerk. Just let me say, that your superior ego, (and THIN SKIN) has caused you to lash out at me with some pretty childish accusations, at the very slightest provocation.

You have taken the smallest chides, (never mind the bigger one's) and turned them into absolute ATTACKS on your "legacy" and integrity. Even when other reputable posters may agree with me on certain issues, you find a need to defend even the slightest affront. Your usual incendiary response, only puts me in orbit...so we have a "chicken/egg" thing here.

This is NOT my fault... It is a sign of your innability, (or insecurity) to accept ANY form of criticism, or for anyone to dare doubt your word, as the GOSPEL truth.

The very reasons that you keep slamming me about... (ie. working for a living, etc) are at the very crux of our diversity...I'm content, you are trying to make me feel that I'm not, and that I should be where you are, dependent on your pool legacy to exist. You are down to blaming me for "slow sales". WTF !!!

I am having fun with this forum...you are treating it like a serious, hard core pool match-up...with only the strong surviving.

So take it away Fred...I don't, nor never have disliked you. But apparently you can't stand me. So if you'll just STFU, I will have my exorcism, and let you continue...unabated, as long as you quit referring to me as that "other guy", or that "pool policemen"...

Increase your "beat list" to include everyone on the planet, and brag all you want. Turn AB into a God...I think we've had enough of this s**t.

PS...Parting shot..under "egomaniac" in Webster's...is a picture of the Beard..:D

[Cowboy Dennis]

Congratulations Fred,

Once more your excellent literary skills, have (with craftilly worded replies) tried to make me look like an ogre, bent on destroying any credibility you may have... or even your right to exist.


Be careful Freddy...

1054



On the other hand...

1055

Booth locks the front & back doors and youse guys come in through the window:p .

[RedCard]

'And to clear up one more little falsehood, I was well-known in the pool world -- and that would include areas outside of the Midwest and Chicago -- long before the advent of the Internet'.
~~~ Now that is true and was very well put~~~

[Cowboy Dennis]

'And to clear up one more little falsehood, I was well-known in the pool world -- and that would include areas outside of the Midwest and Chicago -- long before the advent of the Internet'.
~~~ Now that is true and was very well put~~~

Not to cast aspersions but only to tell the truth: I hung around (at one time or another & to varying degrees) Cornbread, Miami, Horseface Harry, California John McCue, Watson, John Beyerlein, Tommy Lazlo, Babyface (Whitlow), Kim Bennett, Ronnie Wiseman, and probably a few others that I can't think of right now. I never heard of Freddy or AB until I joined this site in Dec. of 2008. That's probably due in part to my not caring about anything or anybody except who I played and gambled with.

Again, not to cast aspersions but this is a fact. I ain't no wallflower in a poolroom and I never heard of either of them.

Dennis

[Don Smith]

Freddy was written up in the "Billiard News" in 1970. The original article was reproduced in the thread "The Beard goes to Johnston City."

[Wayne]

Freddie...Pretty good odds,chances you are you who say you are.

I don't know whether to agree or disagree.

[philip guagliardo]

Not to cast aspersions but only to tell the truth: I hung around (at one time or another & to varying degrees) Cornbread, Miami, Horseface Harry, California John McCue, Watson, John Beyerlein, Tommy Lazlo, Babyface (Whitlow), Kim Bennett, Ronnie Wiseman, and probably a few others that I can't think of right now. I never heard of Freddy or AB until I joined this site in Dec. of 2008. That's probably due in part to my not caring about anything or anybody except who I played and gambled with.

Again, not to cast aspersions but this is a fact. I ain't no wallflower in a poolroom and I never heard of either of them.

Dennis

Dennis I now understand !! Your list of players are mostly unknown to me , i heard of Miami ,Cornbread , Babyface , and recently Wiseman , but I could be confused about that because their is a harness driver named Wiseman ! I guess the others are good players too , but like you I never heard of them . Horseface Harry now thats quite a nickname and I myself would have played him with a moniker like that .

I guess it just boils down to were you live and who you met .

Phil


PS Can you please add me to the list !! I was a top shortstop beater and an occasionally snuck up on a good player with a surprise ! :D

Oh shit !! I'm bragging ! :o

[Cowboy Dennis]

Dennis I now understand !! Your list of players are mostly unknown to me , i heard of Miami ,Cornbread , Babyface , and recently Wiseman , but I could be confused about that because their is a harness driver named Wiseman ! I guess the others are good players too , but like you I never heard of them . Horseface Harry now thats quite a nickname and I myself would have played him with a moniker like that .

I guess it just boils down to were you live and who you met .

Phil


PS Can you please add me to the list !! I was a top shortstop beater and an occasionally snuck up on a good player with a surprise ! :D

Oh shit !! I'm bragging ! :o

Phil,

I made the post to show that a person can be in a poolroom for 25 years around action players and still not hear of some people. That said, I did hear of Bugs. I remember when some guys went to Chicago, in the mid-80's I think, because Grady was going to play Bugs. When they returned and set up some of the shots that Bugs banked for the cash I was astounded. Nobody mentioned Freddy or AB. That does not diminish them in any way though, Bugs and his superhuman talents were the topics of those discussions.

The guys I named are on Freddy's list I think.

Dennis

[fred bentivegna]

Not to cast aspersions but only to tell the truth: I hung around (at one time or another & to varying degrees) Cornbread, Miami, Horseface Harry, California John McCue, Watson, John Beyerlein, Tommy Lazlo, Babyface (Whitlow), Kim Bennett, Ronnie Wiseman, and probably a few others that I can't think of right now. I never heard of Freddy or AB until I joined this site in Dec. of 2008. That's probably due in part to my not caring about anything or anybody except who I played and gambled with.

Again, not to cast aspersions but this is a fact. I ain't no wallflower in a poolroom and I never heard of either of them.

Dennis

Damn Dennis, what a list you choose make a point. I played and gambled with everybody on that list except Tommy Lazlo and Ronnie Wiseman. I may have even played with them but didnt know it at the time. When I went to Detroit I didnt spend weekends at the Rack, I spent months. I forgot to include Kim on my list. I ran into him at Derby City last year.
This must be what they call, "Hiding in plain sight." Another answer might be with all the money that circulated there, that I was not, except for the one time I showed up with a powerhouse backer, one of the more interesting targets.

Incidentally, you have cast an aspersion. Along with the "fact," to be fair, you should have mentioned the deference and affection CornBread showed to me on that accu-stats video.

[Cowboy Dennis]

Damn Dennis, what a list you choose make a point. I played and gambled with everybody on that list except Tommy Lazlo and Ronnie Wiseman. I may have even played with them but didnt know it at the time. When I went to Detroit I didnt spend weekends at the Rack, I spent months. I forgot to include Kim on my list. I ran into him at Derby City last year.
This must be what they call, "Hiding in plain sight." Another answer might be with all the money that circulated there, that I was not, except for the one time I showed up with a powerhouse backer, one of the more interesting targets.

Incidentally, you have cast an aspersion. Along with the "fact," to be fair, you should have mentioned the deference and affection CornBread showed to me on that accu-stats video.

Freddy,

As I explained to Phil in post #20, I only wrote to explain that a person can be around all of those players for years and not necessarily hear of certain players. I'd also never heard of SJD until I joined this site, I'm certain that he doesn't feel slighted by my admitting that. I'm plain and simply under-informed in the matter of the players in this country during the time I was playing the most. I just never cared(and still don't) about who's who unless I was playing them. I couldn't name the top players of today without looking it up, I just don't care who the top players are and I never have cared.

I gambled with everybody on that list except for Beyerlein & Wiseman(EDIT: my mistake, I never gambled with Babyface either), and also sat around BS'ing with them all at one time or another but I've never been a big fan of sitting around and talking about pool while I'm in a poolroom, so many times I would walk away when the subject turned in that direction. I preferred to match up with those guys, not to talk about it.

As far as me casting an aspersion by not mentioning the DVD, I believe that I've already typed up "word for word" in another post just exactly what Red said when you came into the booth during the Ervolino/Sigel match. What was it that he called you? "The Chicago Squeezer"? Just for you though I'll say this: Red seemed to genuinely like you and he did defer to you and your knowledge. I could tell by the way youse two guys talked to each other that a mutual respect was definitely there between youse guys:) .

Now carry on Freddy and like the caterpillar told Alice: KEEP... YOUR... TEMPER.:p

Cowboy "didn't care who nobody was unless I was playing 'em" Dennis

[Cowboy Dennis]

Incidentally, you have cast an aspersion. Along with the "fact," to be fair, you should have mentioned the deference and affection CornBread showed to me on that accu-stats video.


Freddy,

You tricky devil. You accused me of casting an aspersion by NOT mentioning something!!! I fell for it, hook, line & sinker:eek: . That's a new one on me, I must give you credit for it. I'll call it "aspersion by omission":D .

Dennis

[fred bentivegna]

Freddy,

You tricky devil. You accused me of casting an aspersion by NOT mentioning something!!! I fell for it, hook, line & sinker:eek: . That's a new one on me, I must give you credit for it. I'll call it "aspersion by omission":D .

Dennis


I may be finally over all of this. I read Dick's post, absorbed all the literary deviousness that he continually accuses me of. ie., he managed to get in every previous, beef, knock, declaim, complaint, etc., ("superior ego," "THIN SKIN," "lash out," "childish," "legacy," "integrity," "inability (or insecurity) to accept criticism," "should be where I am," "dependent of your pool legacy (theres that legacy word again)," finishing up with the venerable, "beat list," "brag," and another knock at Artie, along with the usual, "Who me?" No one can say that he doesnt cover every base with every post.

I have to admit, I finally didnt heat up and had a good laugh at the insanity of all this. Plus, I thoroughly enjoyed the amount of steam that the Dickie man took over the "other guy" and "pool policeman" references. I thought they might have some bite. That absolutely made my morning. I promise to be more fastidious in the future application of those terms, providing of course that he discards that miniature dictionary from the above paragraph, that has certainly suffered from overuse.

Further SJD quote:
"I am having fun with this forum...you are treating it like a serious, hard core pool match-up...with only the strong surviving."
I cant help myself, I treat all competiton as if the loser has to sit in the electric chair.

Beard

Finally, whew! I want to thank Dennis for including that clean-up, reminder post, replying to Fast Lenny's unresearched concern about whether or not my beat list included wins where I had received a handicap. After reading Lenny's post which included my probably being "discovered" on the internet, my eyes bugged, my hair curled and my blood pressure shot up to the moon.
Dennis probably saved me from a stroke.

To show my gratitude I am going to allow Dennis at least 5 future piss-me-offs without me taking my usual steam.

[fred bentivegna]

Freddy,

As I explained to Phil in post #20, I only wrote to explain that a person can be around all of those players for years and not necessarily hear of certain players. I'd also never heard of SJD until I joined this site, I'm certain that he doesn't feel slighted by my admitting that. I'm plain and simply under-informed in the matter of the players in this country during the time I was playing the most. I just never cared(and still don't) about who's who unless I was playing them. I couldn't name the top players of today without looking it up, I just don't care who the top players are and I never have cared.

I gambled with everybody on that list except for Beyerlein & Wiseman(EDIT: my mistake, I never gambled with Babyface either), and also sat around BS'ing with them all at one time or another but I've never been a big fan of sitting around and talking about pool while I'm in a poolroom, so many times I would walk away when the subject turned in that direction. I preferred to match up with those guys, not to talk about it.

As far as me casting an aspersion by not mentioning the DVD, I believe that I've already typed up "word for word" in another post just exactly what Red said when you came into the booth during the Ervolino/Sigel match. What was it that he called you? "The Chicago Squeezer"? Just for you though I'll say this: Red seemed to genuinely like you and he did defer to you and your knowledge. I could tell by the way youse two guys talked to each other that a mutual respect was definitely there between youse guys:) .

Now carry on Freddy and like the caterpillar told Alice: KEEP... YOUR... TEMPER.:p

Cowboy "didn't care who nobody was unless I was playing 'em" Dennis


Thank you, and for the record, somebody realizing that CornPone and I were good friends is all the pool acknowledgement that I would ever need.

Beard

[MARK..HOU TX]

Freddy...looks like your startin to laugh at some of this stuff..good for the soul..AND you might just get the LAST laugh..maybe

[RedCard]

Not to cast aspersions but only to tell the truth: I hung around (at one time or another & to varying degrees) Cornbread, Miami, Horseface Harry, California John McCue, Watson, John Beyerlein, Tommy Lazlo, Babyface (Whitlow), Kim Bennett, Ronnie Wiseman, and probably a few others that I can't think of right now. I never heard of Freddy or AB until I joined this site in Dec. of 2008. That's probably due in part to my not caring about anything or anybody except who I played and gambled with.

Again, not to cast aspersions but this is a fact. I ain't no wallflower in a poolroom and I never heard of either of them.

Dennis

I 'heard of Freddy', in fact met him, in '72 or so. He came to my town and couldn't get any action. Had his Superman shirt on. Nick Varner lives near here and was eligible but didn't bite. Cokes lived here and held court at the Elks Club but didn't play. None of the local shortstops accepted the massive weight he offered.

I like the way he put being known 'before the internet'. Seems several mostly formerly unknowns have taken the advent of the internet to burnish their credentials. Sounds to me like a fair amount of jealously directed at Freddy. Maybe some who learned the craft in antiseptic 'recreation centers' can't truly appreciate the atmosphere and lifestyle real pool players endured and enjoyed. I had to venture to Bensigners before I knew of Artie or Tommy the Sailor or some of those guys. Freddy's reputation often preceded him.

[Cowboy Dennis]

...along with the usual, "Who me?"

Beard


To show my gratitude I am going to allow Dennis at least 5 future piss-me-offs without me taking my usual steam.


I'll admit here before witnesses that SJD has that "Who Me" thing down as pat as anybody I've ever seen or heard(except Lee Harvey Oswald). I'm glad you're having fun with it Freddy, that's what it's all about anyway.

P.S. Can I apply the future "piss-me-offs" to any Chicagoans or ex-Chicagoans or is that only good for you?;) .

Dennis

[Cowboy Dennis]

Seems several mostly formerly unknowns have taken the advent of the internet to burnish their credentials.


Feel free to enlighten us RedCard, I haven't noticed this myself. Naming names would be a start.

Dennis

[wincardona]

Let me start out with a friendly word to The Beard, this is a thread about Artie, not about your beat list, chill out.

I've known Artie, Freddy, Bugs, and all the players from the Chicago area since I was 19 years old. Chicago was my second home town, if there is such a thing. I played Freddy, Bugs, and Artie, and the player that I never beat was Artie. I played Artie several times in Bensingers, we played one pocket on the 5x10 and I never had a chance, I also played him on a 41/2 x 9 and he beat me there as well. I really wasn't a one pocket player back then I was a strong 9 baller, but had very limited knowledge of one pocket.Artie handled me easily. But what I do remember playing Artie is that I couldn't figure out how he was beating me, and I never seemed to play my game against him.Later in life I snapped and figured out how he beat me, and it was quite simple. He rarely never started me out with a shot, and when he did he had balls surrounding his pocket. (something to think about) Artie was the most frustrating player i've ever played, he seemed to nullify my strengths with his ability to constantly beat me to the shot, not only that but when he was forced to shoot and be an agressive player he succeeded a high % of the time.I left Chicago with a lot of respect for his game, and a burning desire to go back and beat him, which never happened. I never have seen Artie lose playing pool, and he has played and beat some strong players imo playing both one pocket and 8 ball, he also beat excellent players playing one handed one pocket and 8 ball.Could he of beaten players like R.A., E. Kelly, J. Brett, and players of that caliber? I wouldn't be surprised. But since he never played RA,or Kelly, all we have to go off of is hear say, but then again I wouldn't be surprised at all.

Now about The Beard, The Beard has a wealth of knowledge, but he's not a natural player. He's got this robotic stroke, and I really can't understand how he played as good as he did, considering the handicap that he was taxed with. Do I think he could of beaten SJD playing pool? Playing one pocket or 9 ball, probably not, but yes playing banks. (the nitch game lol) But I do enjoy the back and forth disputes they have with one another. Maybe at this years DCC we might see some action with them.

I don't know what would of happened with the players from the west and midwest , but I do know the beast is from the east.

[fred bentivegna]

I 'heard of Freddy', in fact met him, in '72 or so. He came to my town and couldn't get any action. Had his Superman shirt on. Nick Varner lives near here and was eligible but didn't bite. Cokes lived here and held court at the Elks Club but didn't play. None of the local shortstops accepted the massive weight he offered.

I like the way he put being known 'before the internet'. Seems several mostly formerly unknowns have taken the advent of the internet to burnish their credentials. Sounds to me like a fair amount of jealously directed at Freddy. Maybe some who learned the craft in antiseptic 'recreation centers' can't truly appreciate the atmosphere and lifestyle real pool players endured and enjoyed. I had to venture to Bensigners before I knew of Artie or Tommy the Sailor or some of those guys. Freddy's reputation often preceded him.


Redcard, thanks for your post. I can honestly say that a thrill went up my leg when I read it. What town are you talking about, Bowling Green?

Beard

[fred bentivegna]

I'll admit here before witnesses that SJD has that "Who Me" thing down as pat as anybody I've ever seen or heard(except Lee Harvey Oswald). I'm glad you're having fun with it Freddy, that's what it's all about anyway.

P.S. Can I apply the future "piss-me-offs" to any Chicagoans or ex-Chicagoans or is that only good for you?;) .

Dennis

Dennis, it's a mix and match proposition, I promise. Start the countdown.

Beard

If I bite my tongue I may allow that "other guy" one barrel also. Oops, I forgot myself already. I had promised to not use that anymore. Sorry.:o

[Cowboy Dennis]

Dennis, it's a mix and match proposition, I promise. Start the countdown.

Beard

If I bite my tongue I may allow that "other guy" one barrel also. Oops, I forgot myself already. I had promised to not use that anymore. Sorry.:o

Freddy,

I don't come on this site to start anything, but, like you and some others, I'm not going to sit idly by when I feel a need to respond. Nothing wrong with a man decently stating his opinions and feelings.

P.S. In my posts in this thread you wrongly assume that I'm "making a case"(your title in post #21, that I missed, you tricky SOB), apparently for my point of view.

No case is being made or needs to be made by me. I'm stating the simple fact that I was around those guys on my list(and others) for years and never heard of you or AB. That fact cannot be argued by anybody nor can it be diminished by anyone. It's simply a fact. It's more of a reflection on me than anything but it's still a fact.

Dennis

[fred bentivegna]

Let me start out with a friendly word to The Beard, this is a thread about Artie, not about your beat list, chill out.

I've known Artie, Freddy, Bugs, and all the players from the Chicago area since I was 19 years old. Chicago was my second home town, if there is such a thing. I played Freddy, Bugs, and Artie, and the player that I never beat was Artie. I played Artie several times in Bensingers, we played one pocket on the 5x10 and I never had a chance, I also played him on a 41/2 x 9 and he beat me there as well. I really wasn't a one pocket player back then I was a strong 9 baller, but had very limited knowledge of one pocket.Artie handled me easily. But what I do remember playing Artie is that I couldn't figure out how he was beating me, and I never seemed to play my game against him.Later in life I snapped and figured out how he beat me, and it was quite simple. He rarely never started me out with a shot, and when he did he had balls surrounding his pocket. (something to think about) Artie was the most frustrating player i've ever played, he seemed to nullify my strengths with his ability to constantly beat me to the shot, not only that but when he was forced to shoot and be an agressive player he succeeded a high % of the time.I left Chicago with a lot of respect for his game, and a burning desire to go back and beat him, which never happened. I never have seen Artie lose playing pool, and he has played and beat some strong players imo playing both one pocket and 8 ball, he also beat excellent players playing one handed one pocket and 8 ball.Could he of beaten players like R.A., E. Kelly, J. Brett, and players of that caliber? I wouldn't be surprised. But since he never played RA,or Kelly, all we have to go off of is hear say, but then again I wouldn't be surprised at all.

Now about The Beard, The Beard has a wealth of knowledge, but he's not a natural player. He's got this robotic stroke, and I really can't understand how he played as good as he did, considering the handicap that he was taxed with. Do I think he could of beaten SJD playing pool? Playing one pocket or 9 ball, probably not, but yes playing banks. (the nitch game lol) But I do enjoy the back and forth disputes they have with one another. Maybe at this years DCC we might see some action with them.

I don't know what would of happened with the players from the west and midwest, but I do know the beast is from the east.


Aside from my latest internet encounters, the two pool players whose throat I used to fantasize strangling the most often, was yours and Artie B's. Two slate-heads whose brains could never be penetrated in any argument, ever. I have spent many hours futilely arguing with both of you, and always to no avail. You and I argued for so long (and so interestingly) about a bank shot at DCC, that they provided us with the Accu-stats bleacher area seating so there would be enough room for the sweators. Somebody, Diana Hoppe I think, even videotaped the beef. I was right of course, but you still would not give in.

"Robotic Stroke," huh? I couldnt beat SJD playing one pocket, huh? Grrr. The next time I see you I am going to poison your moustacolli.


Beard

[Cowboy Dennis]

The next time I see you I am going to poison your moustacolli.

Beard


Bill,

Do you use rodents in your pasta?

Dennis

[mosconiac]

Somebody, Diana Hoppe I think, even videotaped the beef.
I got a bit of the festivities on camera too...I might post it some day if I ever need to stoke the fires around here. :)

[Clare]

Bill,

Do you use rodents in your pasta?

Dennis


LOL. Freddy, do you mean Muscatel?:confused:

[Terry Ardeno]

Two slate-heads whose brains could never be penetrated in any argument, ever. I have spent many hours futilely arguing with both of you, and always to no avail.
Beard

When I read this, I went to sign in here to respond and inadvertantly typed in PA-LEEZE instead of my name! No kidding!

Fred,.....PA-LEEZE!!! YOU (of all people) calling Billy 'slateheard"??? "Brain....could never be penetrated"?????

Look who's calling the kettle B-L-A-C-K!!!! :D

I went 'round and 'round with you in the 2009 Banks H.O.F thread when I was lobbying for Varner. And to this day, I never, EVER, debated anyone who was tougher to make a point with than YOU! Your mind is locked real tight and somebody threw the key in Lake Michigan! My first wife was in a class all by herself when it came to stubborness and you could spot her the wild deuce!!

You were even able to somehow (I still can't figure out just HOW you did it) turn my own logic and reasoning around & somehow used it AGAINST my very point. At least I think that's what happened! :confused:

Remember the thread Fred?.........http://www.onepocket.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3345

YOU have the hardest head this side of Jake LaMotta! Period.
Thankfully, you have a soft heart to balance the see-saw a little! :D

The very nerve of you! (You're seated on the right) :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh33bGAxl58

[Terry Ardeno]

I got a bit of the festivities on camera too...I might post it some day if I ever need to stoke the fires around here. :)

Please, please and pretty please....post it! :D

[newfosgatesucks]

I take Billy Seriously, and trust what he says. BECAUSE, another HOF player said the same thing. None other than Tony "FARGO" Ferguson. While playin with him I asked him about the Beard. He said, "Who?" I said , 'Fred Bentivegna, from Chicago".

Well, I got a great story. Tony proceeded to tell me they played banks on a 5x10 in Chicago, years ago. He said they played to 4 games, and Freddy beat him 4 in a row. Tony went on to say, with aggrevated demeanor, that he had the worst stroke on earth, and just couldn't understand how Freddy could make one ball - much less 8.lol....I asked if they played a second set--he promptly replied NO. You could tell Tony didn't like it. He didn't ike it so much that He was jarred years later just recounting it. But wait a minute - This is FARGO! FARGO! He could be backed or put up and go get another dose anytime he wanted - So I askd him---"Well Tony, How'd you do with hi the next time? " I EXPECTED to hear a great story, but no.

"There was no second time. We never matched up again, in all of these years."

WHY WHY WHY ??????? Would Tony Fargo not want to play Banks with Freddie? IDK, but I assure you, just as sure as I sit here, he was SHAKEN about the last time they played. So badly it showed YEARS LATER. Im not saying anything above that. Fargo himself said he doesn't like it. And said HE (FARGO!) Pulled up!.


Fred, you have nothing to prove to me. Same goes for Artie. I'd just like to have dinner and a nite at the pool room with either of you. I dont care how cold and wet it is. I'm used to playing in a boiler room.
Furthermore, I accept your word as the gospel truth, to the best of your recollection, that is.

[fred bentivegna]

When I read this, I went to sign in here to respond and inadvertantly typed in PA-LEEZE instead of my name! No kidding!

Fred,.....PA-LEEZE!!! YOU (of all people) calling Billy 'slateheard"??? "Brain....could never be penetrated"?????

Look who's calling the kettle B-L-A-C-K!!!! :D

I went 'round and 'round with you in the 2009 Banks H.O.F thread when I was lobbying for Varner. And to this day, I never, EVER, debated anyone who was tougher to make a point with than YOU! Your mind is locked real tight and somebody threw the key in Lake Michigan! My first wife was in a class all by herself when it came to stubborness and you could spot her the wild deuce!!

You were even able to somehow (I still can't figure out just HOW you did it) turn my own logic and reasoning around & somehow used it AGAINST my very point. At least I think that's what happened! :confused:

Remember the thread Fred?.........http://www.onepocket.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3345

YOU have the hardest head this side of Jake LaMotta! Period.
Thankfully, you have a soft heart to balance the see-saw a little! :D

The very nerve of you! (You're seated on the right) :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh33bGAxl58


Somebody must have told you that I was 1/2 Calabrese. We are world famous hard-heads (capa tost)

Beard

[lll]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh33bGAxl58[/url]
phil whats your take on this??:rolleyes: just askin;)

[philip guagliardo]

I was waiting for Billy to chime in and if anybody doubts Billy's opinion on Artie B playing pool they certainly don't know him . Billy stated Artie's game perfectly and I know for sure why he couldn't figure out why he lost because Billy didn't miss much and knew he had a better stroke and everything else than Artie . Artie like freddy didn't look to good at the table Artie had that sawing wood stroke and Freddy though I love him would threaten to hit the ball twirling his hand and cue sometimes and yes he did look like a robot with his ass hanging out . The thing is they both got the job done in their own peculiar way . I looked much better than both of them drilling balls in from the end rail and I too couldn't figure out why I couldn't beat Artie in straight pool or even nine ball where I was suppose to win .

I give them both a lot of credit for over coming the absence of natural ability like Billy had .

Now about that bullheaded Artie Vs Freddy That's a tough one !! Billy i'm not sure about because we really never debated although most Italians are battle tested when it comes to bullheadedness .

I'm probably one of the few guys that can make Freddy go into submission , but we have to be playing pinochle my game where I tortured Artie and Freddy's both with more bullheadedness . It was fun though because I have a little masochistic tendencies at times . Ok most of the time !!!

I'm glad Billy jumped in and voiced his opinion which is second to none when it comes to rating players .

I would also advise Billy to hire a food tester if he ever sits down for a bite with the Beard . I even would not have said ROBOTIC !! I sometimes eat by his house and he just might give me a dose too . In fact I take back what I posted Freddy looked a lot like Billy at the table great stroke and everything .

I will say this if Freddy would have stuck to just playing banks , I really believe he would have been as good as anybody ever and i'm including Bugs & Taylor !! Absolutely !

Phil

I guess that should get me a dinner invitation !! :)


Really i'm dead serious .

Who could beat Artie B if they played everyday ??? NO ONE !! JMO

[fred bentivegna]

I take Billy Seriously, and trust what he says. BECAUSE, another HOF player said the same thing. None other than Tony "FARGO" Ferguson. While playin with him I asked him about the Beard. He said, "Who?" I said , 'Fred Bentivegna, from Chicago".

Well, I got a great story. Tony proceeded to tell me they played banks on a 5x10 in Chicago, years ago. He said they played to 4 games, and Freddy beat him 4 in a row. Tony went on to say, with aggrevated demeanor, that he had the worst stroke on earth, and just couldn't understand how Freddy could make one ball - much less 8.lol....I asked if they played a second set--he promptly replied NO. You could tell Tony didn't like it. He didn't ike it so much that He was jarred years later just recounting it. But wait a minute - This is FARGO! FARGO! He could be backed or put up and go get another dose anytime he wanted - So I askd him---"Well Tony, How'd you do with hi the next time? " I EXPECTED to hear a great story, but no.

"There was no second time. We never matched up again, in all of these years."

WHY WHY WHY ??????? Would Tony Fargo not want to play Banks with Freddie? IDK, but I assure you, just as sure as I sit here, he was SHAKEN about the last time they played. So badly it showed YEARS LATER. Im not saying anything above that. Fargo himself said he doesn't like it. And said HE (FARGO!) Pulled up!.


Fred, you have nothing to prove to me. Same goes for Artie. I'd just like to have dinner and a nite at the pool room with either of you. I dont care how cold and wet it is. I'm used to playing in a boiler room.
Furthermore, I accept your word as the gospel truth, to the best of your recollection, that is.


I have to be honest here. I had actually forgotten where and when Tony and I had played. Just that I had prevailed. The exact detailed part of the memory fails me sometimes, but I am usually able to recall the most important part, the win or the loss.
I still think Fargo is the best full rack banker in the country at the moment. For big money that is. Big money does make a difference. Example: My disciple, Riley "Jet" Johnson cannot get any of the top banking guns to play big money, SHORT RACES, full rack banks. Shannon Murphy, Brian Gregg, Jason Kirkwood, or John Brumback. A couple of them might play marathon 5 aheads, but I have advised Jet against that. The reason: I actually believe that those players have an edge in talent, and could probably prevail stretched way out where they could get comfortable. But in a short race for big lines, Jet is a hard core killer, like Bugs before him.

However, I have also advised him not to solicit the services of one Tony Fargo, because a short race, full-rack-for-large-cheese match, wont have much of a negative affect on his performance.

Beard

Tony Banks Coleman has offered to stake those guys but they have demured.

[fred bentivegna]

I was waiting for Billy to chime in and if anybody doubts Billy's opinion on Artie B playing pool they certainly don't know him . Billy stated Artie's game perfectly and I know for sure why he couldn't figure out why he lost because Billy didn't miss much and knew he had a better stroke and everything else than Artie . Artie like freddy didn't look to good at the table Artie had that sawing wood stroke and Freddy though I love him would threaten to hit the ball twirling his hand and cue sometimes and yes he did look like a robot with his ass hanging out . The thing is they both got the job done in their own peculiar way . I looked much better than both of them drilling balls in from the end rail and I too couldn't figure out why I couldn't beat Artie in straight pool or even nine ball where I was suppose to win .

I give them both a lot of credit for over coming the absence of natural ability like Billy had .

Now about that bullheaded Artie Vs Freddy That's a tough one !! Billy i'm not sure about because we really never debated although most Italians are battle tested when it comes to bullheadedness .

I'm probably one of the few guys that can make Freddy go into submission , but we have to be playing pinochle my game where I tortured Artie and Freddy's both with more bullheadedness . It was fun though because I have a little masochistic tendencies at times . Ok most of the time !!!

I'm glad Billy jumped in and voiced his opinion which is second to none when it comes to rating players .

I would also advise Billy to hire a food tester if he ever sits down for a bite with the Beard . I even would not have said ROBOTIC !! I sometimes eat by his house and he just might give me a dose too . In fact I take back what I posted Freddy looked a lot like Billy at the table great stroke and everything .

I will say this if Freddy would have stuck to just playing banks , I really believe he would have been as good as anybody ever and i'm including Bugs & Taylor !! Absolutely !

Phil

I guess that should get me a dinner invitation !! :)


Really i'm dead serious .

Who could beat Artie B if they played everyday ??? NO ONE !! JMO


Phil that is the third reference in a very short time frame whereby somebody took a shot at my "stroke." Billy I, Tony Fargo and now you. A long time ago Tommy Halliday (Staten Island) told me I had the worst stroke he had ever seen. The next thing he said was that he didnt want to fade any of my action.

Thanks for the plug and your support, you know you can come over and eat anytime.

Beard

[Skin]

I wondered this before and since Artie doesn't come around anymore to answer "quistions" :) , I'll throw it out there for anybody who knows. It's a which came first, the chicken or the egg, question.

Did Artie first develop his ideas of how to play mistake-free 1p and then hone the skills to execute that, or did he realize his limitations and develop his method of playing to maximize on what he could do best? I'm guessing his best pool skill was pinpoint, perfect cue ball control and that, combined with knowing where to leave his opponent, is how he won.

Skin

[fred bentivegna]

Forgetting the specifics of the me and Fargo game is frustrating. I would give up 6 months of whatever time I have left if only I could remember the particulars of the match.
That reminds me of a similar situation. I was in Chris's poolroom one night when I saw this girl practicing nearby. She looked somehow familiar and I kept looking over at her. Finally, she said, "Whatsthematter, dont you remember me?" I really didnt, my instincts told me that I should have, however. We started talking, and she began lamenting about how she had finally recovered from the ill effects of whatever I had put on her. Then she hit me with something that sent the blood rushing to my head -- and wherever else. "I hope the other girls made it," she said. I frantically began scanning my brain for a glimmer of recollection. I knew it had to be outstandingly kinky, please brain give me a clue, something to go back to, and reflect on when I arrive at my nonparticipatory dotage. But alas, nothing came out.

I made a weak attempt at reconciliation and offered to take her for an apology drink. The look she gave me said it all: Take one more step closer and I will turn you over to the proper authorities.

I felt like screaming, Please tell me, please tell me.. but I chickened out and slunk away.

Beard

[gulfportdoc]

Now about that bullheaded Artie Vs Freddy That's a tough one !! Billy i'm not sure about because we really never debated although most Italians are battle tested when it comes to bullheadedness .
I agree with you, Phil. Since I grew up in Pittsburgh (not far from our lovely Clare) and have been around Italians for a large chunk of my life, my first hand experience is that Italians (Sicilians, etc.) ARE bullheaded. But on the other hand, many of them can just as easily turn around and argue the other point of view. Billy is a great example of that.;)

But there may be nothing that compares in intensity to a single-minded German. To move one of them off their course would be like trying to slide the Washington Monument over a couple of feet. That mindset is the very definition of Stoic: unaffected by passion, feeling, pain, suffering or distress; immovable in their convictions; unexcitable.

Artie was probably the Dr. Spock of money pool. To the Italian temperament, it's not that he was so effective that was irritating. It was that he was unemotional.

Doc

[fred bentivegna]

I wondered this before and since Artie doesn't come around anymore to answer "quistions" :) , I'll throw it out there for anybody who knows. It's a which came first, the chicken or the egg, question.

Did Artie first develop his ideas of how to play mistake-free 1p and then hone the skills to execute that, or did he realize his limitations and develop his method of playing to maximize on what he could do best? I'm guessing his best pool skill was pinpoint, perfect cue ball control and that, combined with knowing where to leave his opponent, is how he won.

Skin

Artie started out playing Chicago Pony Rosen for 3 and $5 a game 1pkt. Everybody thought Pony was a great 1pkt player who really knew the game, but after a while Artie thought Pony's ideas about 1pkt were overrated. He then took lessons from Joe Procita for a short while and quickly came to the conclusion that Joe didnt know shit either. (I took straight pool lessons from Joe myself. He was not a very good teacher and I learned zilch.)
At the time we all thought that Artie was being a little irreverent dissing Pony and Joe P like that. I guess it was at that time that Artie decided to try and figure out how to do it himself. Which apparently he did.
That in itself was amazing, since he certainly wasnt no Rhodes Scholar.

Beard
sidenote: Pony died of a heart attack shooting at the game ball playing Artie for $5 a game. The 2nd player to drop dead playing with AB. I'm sure that is some kind of a record.

[Clare]

I agree with you, Phil. Since I grew up in Pittsburgh (not far from our lovely Clare) and have been around Italians for a large chunk of my life, my first hand experience is that Italians (Sicilians, etc.) ARE bullheaded. But on the other hand, many of them can just as easily turn around and argue the other point of view. Billy is a great example of that.;)

But there may be nothing that compares in intensity to a single-minded German. To move one of them off their course would be like trying to slide the Washington Monument over a couple of feet. That mindset is the very definition of Stoic: unaffected by passion, feeling, pain, suffering or distress; immovable in their convictions; unexcitable.

Artie was probably the Dr. Spock of money pool. To the Italian temperament, it's not that he was so effective that was irritating. It was that he was unemotional.

Doc


Doc, although I always agree with you and truly connect with your thoughts and observations, I must disagree with you regarding the most bullheaded people being the Germans. You may have never come across a stubborn Polak. A stubborn Polak can beat a stubborn German any day. Believe, I know.:eek:

Also, the southern Italians can be bullheaded, but my family is from northern Italy, so we are all very sensible and flexible...and refined. :)

Other than our Dennis, any other great Polish pool players???

[Skin]

Artie started out playing Chicago Pony Rosen for 3 and $5 a game 1pkt. Everybody thought Pony was a great 1pkt player who really knew the game, but after a while Artie thought Pony's ideas about 1pkt were overrated. He then took lessons from Joe Procita for a short while and quickly came to the conclusion that Joe didnt know shit either. (I took straight pool lessons from Joe myself. He was not a very good teacher and I learned zilch.)
At the time we all thought that Artie was being a little irreverent dissing Pony and Joe P like that. I guess it was at that time that Artie decided to try and figure out how to do it himself. Which apparently he did.
That in itself was amazing, since he certainly wasnt no Rhodes Scholar.

Beard
sidenote: Pony died of a heart attack shooting at the game ball playing Artie for $5 a game. The 2nd player to drop dead playing with AB. I'm sure that is some kind of a record.

Fred, Thanks for the reply. I'm not familiar with how Pony and Procita played, but I assume it was an old school type squeeze game. If so, I don't see how there could be much for Artie to disagree with. Maybe he decided to incorporate some power 1p into that approach? :D

The two guys dying is funny on the surface, but actually quite grim once you let it set in. :eek:

Skin

[androd]

The two guys dying is funny on the surface, but actually quite grim once you let it set in. :eek:

Skin

Playing him is probably like reading his post's. :p
Rod.

[wincardona]

I agree with you, Phil. Since I grew up in Pittsburgh (not far from our lovely Clare) and have been around Italians for a large chunk of my life, my first hand experience is that Italians (Sicilians, etc.) ARE bullheaded. But on the other hand, many of them can just as easily turn around and argue the other point of view. Billy is a great example of that.;)

But there may be nothing that compares in intensity to a single-minded German. To move one of them off their course would be like trying to slide the Washington Monument over a couple of feet. That mindset is the very definition of Stoic: unaffected by passion, feeling, pain, suffering or distress; immovable in their convictions; unexcitable.

Artie was probably the Dr. Spock of money pool. To the Italian temperament, it's not that he was so effective that was irritating. It was that he was unemotional.

Doc

Wrong! The only time I change my point of view is when it's battle tested, and untill then you're wrong again.:D

If you're referring to the shot selection that we disagreed on, who gave you the nod of assurance, and I don't remember switching sides.

[fred bentivegna]

Wrong! The only time I change my point of view is when it's battle tested, and untill then you're wrong again.:D

If you're referring to the shot selection that we disagreed on, who gave you the nod of assurance, and I don't remember switching sides.


Buddy Hall and Varner agreed with my choice. You of course wouldnt dream of switching sides or giving in.

Beard

Robotic stroke?! How about, your stroke was way too long to ever play top notch straight pool. I'll bet you never thought of that! Strictly a nine ball stroke, a little banks, and not very handy for one pocket either. So there!

[gulfportdoc]

Doc, although I always agree with you and truly connect with your thoughts and observations, I must disagree with you regarding the most bullheaded people being the Germans. You may have never come across a stubborn Polak. A stubborn Polak can beat a stubborn German any day. Believe, I know.:eek:
You make a good point, and you may be onto something. Without combing back through all of Artie's posts, I'm pretty sure he told us that he was either born in Germany and moved to Poland, or the reverse. Maybe someone could verify that. He was born in '44, during WWII, as was I.

I could be all wet on that, but it's safe to say that the Polish influence was there, whatever the case. After all, Germany and Poland share a border.

And I certainly admire your Northern Italian refinement.;)

Doc

[lll]

i'm no one to judge but regardless of the stroke or how you look isnt"getting the job done" whats it all about????

[wincardona]

Buddy Hall and Varner agreed with my choice. You of course wouldnt dream of switching sides or giving in.

Beard

Robotic stroke?! How about, your stroke was way too long to ever play top notch straight pool. I'll bet you never thought of that! Strictly a nine ball stroke, a little banks, and not very handy for one pocket either. So there!

I don't remember Buddy agreeing with you, i'll give you the ultra conservative Varner, he squeezes harder than you. (the wedge)

As far as my long stroke is concerned I never had a problem playing any game beside straight pool, never had an interest playing it. But you know first hand how well I played BANKS, and one pocket. :p :D :p

[NH Steve]

You make a good point, and you may be onto something. Without combing back through all of Artie's posts, I'm pretty sure he told us that he was either born in Germany and moved to Poland, or the reverse. Maybe someone could verify that. He was born in '44, during WWII, as was I.

I could be all wet on that, but it's safe to say that the Polish influence was there, whatever the case. After all, Germany and Poland share a border.

And I certainly admire your Northern Italian refinement.;)

Doc
Here is my interview with Artie -- he mentions Austria and Poland so you were close, Doc:
http://www.onepocket.org/Bodendorfer.htm (http://www.onepocket.org/Bodendorfer.htm)

[gulfportdoc]

Born in Poland. So there you have it, Clare.

Doc

[fred bentivegna]

Born in Poland. So there you have it, Clare.

Doc

The combination of Poland and Germany, hardened the concrete in Artie's brain to a marble-like consistency, coated with a lead-like shield that even Superman's x-ray vision couldn't penetrate.


Beard

[Terry Ardeno]

The combination of Poland and Germany, hardened the concrete in Artie's brain to a marble-like consistency, coated with a lead-like shield that even Superman's x-ray vision couldn't penetrate.


Beard

Most everybody was able to get some funnies into this thread. However, this analysis of "concrete" headedness (aka STUBBORNESS) reads like one of them scientist boys telling something on "60 Minutes"! And, it was stated with some authority, which adds to the :D 's!
Funny one, Beard!

Those sincere platitudes out of the way, tell the truth.....How would you match up vs Artie in the "stubborn" category? Brain only, nothing pool related. We're talking strictly medulla-oblongata vs medulla-oblongata, mano de mano! How do you really think A.B. stacks up against you when it comes to being hard-headed? :D

PS-At first, I didn't care for Artie's attitude here. Then, after I read between the lines, I enjoyed some of his contributions. His posts needed studied, to get rid of the distracting mumbo and assorted jumbo. A "wind-talker code breaker" would have come in handy back then. Now, I'll go as far as say I miss him to a degree. To a degree.

[philip guagliardo]

I thing this was one hell of an entertaining thread by all posters and that is what life is all about some entertainment .

I love it when Freddy & Billy do battle the only thing is I can't see their hands writing , but they both must type with one hand for sure so they can influence their point in the Italian way .

Clare you are an escapee in a way !! Northern Italians escaped from us Sicilians and their lucky they did because they have been the work force in Italy and if it wasn't for them no one would work a legal job . :)

The bullheaded posts should be put on a t shirt .

Phil

Now that you mention it Freddy , Billy does have kind of a long stroke !!

Too bad he didn't miss with it the only time he hustled me .

Imagine that an Italian Hustling another Italian .