Rules questions -- including poll

[onepocket]

The One Pocket Rules posted here on OnePocket.org have been recently slightly revised in an effort to reflect comments and suggestions that have come up since we have gone on line. Please take a moment to scan through them and keep your comments or suggestions coming if you see anything else that should be improved!

Eventually, all members of OnePocket.org will have a chance to vote on whether to adopt these rules as the official OnePocket.org rules. Before that vote, I would like to see member's opinions on several specific rules questions, such as: Should an object ball off the table be called a foul?

Keep in mind that the rules for a specific game -- in this case One Pocket -- do not have to be the same as in other games, so even if the General Rules consider an object ball off the table a foul, it does not need to be in One Pocket. In fact, in many areas the game has traditionally been played without a foul charged.

A couple of good questions to ask yourself before voting on any of these rules questions should be:



Is there a compelling reason in the game of One Pocket to make the rule one way or the other?
Is there one way or the other that significantly helps reduce controversy and conflict, both for players and for tournament officials?

[SactownTom]

Why wouldn't this be considered a foul?
What advantage would it give the shooting player to not be penalized?

[NH Steve]

Why wouldn't this be considered a foul?
What advantage would it give the shooting player to not be penalized?Only tradition, Tom -- in many areas an object ball off the table never used to be a foul, especially in the old days.

Once in a great while, in trying to jump the cue ball off the table with your opponent's game ball deep in the jaws of their pocket, the cue ball somehow stays on the table and the object ball jumps off -- what a great escape :)

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)END (the curved lines representing a jumped ball)

The thing is, even if you call it a foul, it's still a great result for the guilty shooter -- they now need two, with two on the spot, and their opponent has to play the cue ball where it lies.

Of course if you make a ball in your own pocket on any shot when you also happen to knock a ball off the table -- that makes for a pretty big difference as to whether it's a foul or not!!

[jrhendy]

It has been a foul in Ca as long as I can remember(45 years or so). It was not a foul in 9-ball until Texas Express rules came along.

[vapros]

I definitely think it should be a foul to knock any ball off the table. When you have your man in a trap and he decides he has nothing to lose by blasting into the balls, this would be at least a little restraint on just how big a desperation swing he takes.

You might even want to consider charging him a penalty ball for each ball that takes flight.

[ajrack]

The pockets used to be slightly larger and/or cut different, which allowed a player to sneak in behind the object ball.. close or stuck in a pocket ..using spin, dead ball hit, slight jumps, etc. you could maybe get the object ball out. Now with the current trend of tight pocket tables for nine ball games, the game is a little easier to get your ball inside or very near to the pocket and not allow your opponent the chance to get it out. I think the no foul rule for "off the table object balls" should stay "no foul".

[Rod]

I've always played it as a foul. As JR mentioned in 9 ball it became a foul with TE. I don't have an old rule book to know what the specific rule was, plus my alsheimer's kicked in. LOL

What ever is decided they better get the rules worded right. For instance under OP rules of play---

ONE POCKET
Except when clearly contradicted by these additional rules, the General Rules of Pocket Billiards apply.

Then -- #4 under OP rules of play ---

Balls pocketed by a shooter in an opponent's target pocket are scored for the opponent, even if the stroke was a foul, but would not count if the cue ball should scratch or jump the table.

Notice an opponents ball counts even if the stroke was a foul

Ok on to general rules ---- part of rule --- 3.28

In all pocket billiard games, when a stroke results in the cue ball or any object ball being a jumped ball off the table, the stroke is a foul. All jumped object balls are spotted (except in 8 and 9-Ball) when all balls have stopped moving.

Here their saying the stroke is a foul. Above in OP rules they say a ball counts even if the stroke was a foul. What happens if you make the winning ball in your opponents pocket with an object ball only leaving the table? Well by OP rules it would still count even if the stroke is a foul. But I have played, the winning ball would spot along with the jumped ball. I've also played it stays down.

Does this winning ball count or not in this situation? Rules whether it be OP or other games sure need some work. I need a break before I get more confused.

Rod

[NH Steve]

<snip>
What happens if you make the winning ball in your opponents pocket with an object ball only leaving the table? Well by OP rules it would still count even if the stroke is a foul. But I have played, the winning ball would spot along with the jumped ball. I've also played it stays down.

Does this winning ball count or not in this situation? Rules whether it be OP or other games sure need some work. I need a break before I get more confused.

RodI would say it stays down and counts for the opponent (but would not count for the shooter of course). Basically, all balls made in the opponent's pocket always count for the opponent, except 1) if the cue ball jumps the table; 2) if the cue ball pocket scratches. Those are the only two exceptions, and they both belong in the rules as an important strategic element allowing a player to stay alive -- but pay a penalty -- if they can execute one of those moves or the other while potting their opponent's would-be game ball.

[hemicudas]

I would say it stays down and counts for the opponent (but would not count for the shooter of course). Basically, all balls made in the opponent's pocket always count for the opponent, except 1) if the cue ball jumps the table; 2) if the cue ball pocket scratches. Those are the only two exceptions, and they both belong in the rules as an important strategic element allowing a player to stay alive -- but pay a penalty -- if they can execute one of those moves or the other while potting their opponent's would-be game ball.
For what it will getcha, Steve, I agree with every word.

[Rod]

I would say it stays down and counts for the opponent (but would not count for the shooter of course). Basically, all balls made in the opponent's pocket always count for the opponent, except 1) if the cue ball jumps the table; 2) if the cue ball pocket scratches. Those are the only two exceptions, and they both belong in the rules as an important strategic element allowing a player to stay alive -- but pay a penalty -- if they can execute one of those moves or the other while potting their opponent's would-be game ball.

Yes I agree, that's my prefered way of play. I thought the rules were due for a change sometime in 2005. Anbody know for sure?

Rod

[SactownTom]

Yes I agree, that's my prefered way of play. I thought the rules were due for a change sometime in 2005. Anbody know for sure?

Rod
The World Pool and Billiards Association and the BCA agreed to a "Rules Change" moritorium for 5 years. Nothing was going to change (or be re-written).
This was to follow the guidelines for USOC consideration for the Olympics.
Lots of things were required. '
1. Non-Profit ruling orgainzation that would be representative for this countries pool players. This would have been the BCA. But, the BCA does not represent the PROS (men or women) nor do they represent the rules for other than BCA events and leagues. So, this isn't going to happen.

2. A single set of rules. The BCA got rid of the Rules commitee and accepted the World Pool and Billiards Association as the STANDARD. The APA, VNEA, TAP, and a multitude of other league orgs have their own set of rules AND are not represented by the BCA. So, this isn't going to happen.

3. The ruling body would hold National Events. The BCA does not invite anyone to their Annual event except BCA members and the PROS. So, this isn't going to happen.

4. The BCA had to be the ruling body for Pool and Billiards in the USA. Again, So this isn't going to happen.

5. Pool and Billiards then has to be accepted as an event in the North American games. Winter sport or Summer event? Not going to happen. USOC and North American Olympics associations are cutting back. Even Baseball is being considerd to be CUT. Bowling isn't going to make it either. So, this isn't going to happen.

6. The ruling body had to have at least 10% of its board of directors be representative of the pool players for USOC consideration. Not going to happen.

Starting to see a pattern here?

60K members in the 2003-2004 BCA league
200K in the APA 2003-2004 league. Who is more representative?

Since the BCA sold their league system, I guess the rules will belong to the league, and not the industry merchants, which the BCA is going to focus.

[Rod]

Ah, I see. Looks like it's going to be a long winter. Thanks for the info Tom.

Rod

[Troy]

I think your argument is the perfect reason that a ball jumped off the table IS A FOUL !!!!!

Troy
The pockets used to be slightly larger and/or cut different, which allowed a player to sneak in behind the object ball.. close or stuck in a pocket ..using spin, dead ball hit, slight jumps, etc. you could maybe get the object ball out. Now with the current trend of tight pocket tables for nine ball games, the game is a little easier to get your ball inside or very near to the pocket and not allow your opponent the chance to get it out. I think the no foul rule for "off the table object balls" should stay "no foul".

[onepocket]

I have just closed this poll for voting, since it has been open for quite a while, and indeed the majority opinion is clear. The thread will remain open if anyone wishes to add commentary.

Please visit the final draft of proposed 'official' OnePocket.org One Pocket Rules: http://onepocket.org/one_pocket_pool_rules.htm

and consider expressing your opinion -- either for or against -- these proposed rules here:
http://onepocket.org/forum/showthread.php?t=97

Thanks
images/buttons/edit.gif (editpost.php?do=editpost&p=1860)

[suki]

First I would like to know what happens when

Score is opponent 7 me 6 and I am shooting.
I make my 7th ball and pocket last ball on table in neutral pocket.
Surely I do not lose my turn and surely I do not spot ball for opponent to get a free shot to win. According to rule I cannot continue shooting.

Under 9.4 restoring a touched ball to its orignal position. Confirm there is no choice by the opponent to have it stay in place or moved back? I have always played there is a choice by opponent. In any game.

Also there is a mis typed number in 9.4, in your notes you refer rule 8.4 instead of 9.4

[NH Steve]

First I would like to know what happens when

Score is opponent 7 me 6 and I am shooting.
I make my 7th ball and pocket last ball on table in neutral pocket.
Surely I do not lose my turn and surely I do not spot ball for opponent to get a free shot to win. According to rule I cannot continue shooting.I can't see where you are getting that interpretation, it seems clear according to the rules that you would be the one to keep shooting -- you just made a ball in your pocket:
9.2 Any penalty balls owed by the shooter, or balls pocketed in a neutral pocket, are to be spotted at the end of the shooter’s inning. However, if a player runs off all the balls on the table without reaching a winning score, then all such balls are spotted immediately (all at once, not one ball at a time), and the shooter continues their inning. At no other time in One Pocket are balls spotted during any shooter’s ongoing inning.

Under 9.4 restoring a touched ball to its orignal position. Confirm there is no choice by the opponent to have it stay in place or moved back? I have always played there is a choice by opponent. In any game.You're talking about One Pocket rule 6.1?
6.1 Unless otherwise announced by the tournament director, One Pocket is played according to the World General Rules 1.16.1, ‘cue ball fouls only’. In the event that any disturbed object balls are to be restored, they shall be placed as close as possible to their original positions, with no advantage to be gained by the offending player. When no official is available to restore disturbed balls, then the players must come to agreement on satisfactory replacement of the disturbed balls prior to continuing play.
The World rule quoted clearly gives the option to leave the moved balls where they land -- that's why I didn't specifically note that in the One Pocket rules:
http://www.wpa-pool.com/rules1.htm
1.16.1 CUE BALL FOULS ONLY...<snip>...At the non-shooting player's option, the disturbed balls will be left in their new positions. In this case, the balls are considered restored, and subsequent contact on them is not a foul.

Also there is a mis typed number in 9.4, in your notes you refer rule 8.4 instead of 9.4Suki, if you refresh your screen, you should see that has been corrected to refer to rule 9.4 -- if you have looked at that page recently (but before I corrected it) your computer saves the page to speed up reloading in case you visit again. To see the new one you need to 'refresh'.

Thanks for your input!

[suki]

I can't see where you are getting that interpretation, it seems clear according to the rules that you would be the one to keep shooting -- you just made a ball in your pocket:
9.2 Any penalty balls owed by the shooter, or balls pocketed in a neutral pocket, are to be spotted at the end of the shooter’s inning. However, if a player runs off all the balls on the table without reaching a winning score, then all such balls are spotted immediately (all at once, not one ball at a time), and the shooter continues their inning. At no other time in One Pocket are balls spotted during any shooter’s ongoing inning.

You're talking about One Pocket rule 6.1?
6.1 Unless otherwise announced by the tournament director, One Pocket is played according to the World General Rules 1.16.1, ‘cue ball fouls only’. In the event that any disturbed object balls are to be restored, they shall be placed as close as possible to their original positions, with no advantage to be gained by the offending player. When no official is available to restore disturbed balls, then the players must come to agreement on satisfactory replacement of the disturbed balls prior to continuing play.
The World rule quoted clearly gives the option to leave the moved balls where they land -- that's why I didn't specifically note that in the One Pocket rules:
http://www.wpa-pool.com/rules1.htm
1.16.1 CUE BALL FOULS ONLY...<snip>...At the non-shooting player's option, the disturbed balls will be left in their new positions. In this case, the balls are considered restored, and subsequent contact on them is not a foul.

Suki, if you refresh your screen, you should see that has been corrected to refer to rule 9.4 -- if you have looked at that page recently (but before I corrected it) your computer saves the page to speed up reloading in case you visit again. To see the new one you need to 'refresh'.

Thanks for your input!
OK reading the rule I have a brain lock as I focused on penalty balls only and did not realize you are talking about penalty and or balls made in a neutral pocket.
Also on the option of replacing ball or not when moved if one pocket players never heard of world general rules they would not know they have the option if they only had your rules available. just think that rule should be included.
no big deal
tks