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  • #16
    Whitey, Howdy;

    Thanks for your second look and the thoughts it generated.

    Misses can be both short or long, no pattern there. I do get confused by all
    the information but try very hard to remember that the brain is good for the
    analysis of setting up the shot but truly sux when it comes to shooting the shot.
    I try to keep the brain out of the mix when I get down on the shot and just
    allow the muscle memory do it's own thing. But when learning any new skill the
    brain keeps elbowing it's way in and kibitzing. So, I need to work a bit more on
    mental discipline.

    Tomorrow is free day at the VFW so I'll be there for a few hours doing some
    drills and busting some racks. My normal routine is do some straight up and
    backs (lagging), to find center ball, some side-to-sides for speed control.
    Some lagging with 1,2 tips of left and right spin to get used to the table. After
    that I generally shoot a few racks of 14.1 then whatever I intend to work on
    that day either 8 or 9 ball, scatter 6 balls on the table try to work a pattern
    so I can go from 1 to the next an the next to run them out and now Banks.
    With every shot I attempt to let the brain do it's job then allow the muscles
    to do theirs. Successful 40 to 60 percent of the time. It's a work in
    continuous progress.

    EDIT: To answer your question, " Tell us what going on in your head before and
    when your down on the shot, ok!
    " OK, when I look at a shot I try to see the half
    between, then to see if there are obstructions in the way, what are the chances
    of a scratch, where will the CB go, what speed will it need, can it get to where I
    need it next without spin, or if not how much of which to 'make it work'. Once I
    make-up my mind it's pretty much just get down on it and shoot. I generally take
    a few practice strokes to get the feel for the speed, and check tip alignment for the
    CB hit. Short pause, back-swing, another short pause contact CB and follow through.
    While down on the shot just keep focus on spot on CB, monitor cue speed, and tip
    alignment. After shot, OH JOY or oh poo dependent upon results.
    A lot of my present confusion has to do with the new information that has been absorbed
    Looking for alternate routs using either cut banks or pass-over banking they need their
    own tips of English and I'm realizing this muddies the view. Best to keep it simple
    and as my signature says keep it less complicated, don't need to run to the light it
    might be a train. Best to take my time and approach slowly and enjoy the journey.

    hank
    Last edited by hankh; 03-11-2019, 12:33 AM.
    Striving for a less complicated life since 1949 ...

    Comment


    • #17
      Whitey and anyone else that wants to jump in, Howdy;

      Well, what I noticed during Monday's practice was I miss 7 of 10 on the Short
      side (crossing the OB's shotline to the pocket before reaching the pocket). This
      I noticed while doing a drill with the OB lined up along the centerline and shooting
      off the far rail to corner, side, and other corner pockets you probably know it.
      Did this drills 6 times so I'd have some idea of what was the repeatable result.
      Played 4 games of 9-ball banks. Found myself over analyzing so just went back
      to some straight and 15 ball rotation.

      Thanks for any constructive criticism.

      hank
      Last edited by hankh; 03-13-2019, 06:02 PM.
      Striving for a less complicated life since 1949 ...

      Comment


      • #18
        Hi Hank,
        Well you discovered that yes you do have a pattern of missing, coming up short. I hope this is derived by using constant variables, such as using the same speed and english. You have to do this!
        I am assuming you are right handed!
        I'd like you to put a stripe OB off the right 2nd diamond side rail, cb positioned on a line coming off the left 3rd diamond on opposite side rail. This will make you cut the ob slightly to pocket it cross corner. Right and left side of table is determined from looking at the table from the head of the table.
        So go ahead and bank it. I want you to watch the ob, it will have natural spin on it, spinning clockwise, this spin will gradually keep working on the ob to make it come short. This is pretty prevalent with most cushions.

        To overcome this either; put an extra tip of natural english (for this shot right hand english), for this will make it run truer to the pocket, or overcut the ob slightly more, which will compensate for the spin counterworking on the ob.

        Now if your cushions do not put this spin on the ob ball then just cut the ob more, no extra english would be needed.

        If you take the cb only and stroke it with center ball from the 2nd diamond side rail into the 1st. diamond of opposite side rail, the cb will run a little short of the center of the corner pocket and hit the facing of the side rail pocket. To bank it into the center of the pocket aim about a chalk width past (which is towards the corner pocket side of diamond) the 1st diamond. So in banking the ob it is better not to spit the angle from 2nd diamond to 1st diamond, but to go with a little more angle to hit the center of pocket or cushion on end rail which will allow it to go in the hole. This effect is not so prevalent say on an angle from side pocket to 2nd diamond.

        If you are going to add a tip of natural (running) english to correct for coming short, I would advise to know your tip, and adjust accordingly. With soft tip I'd stay closer to center, med/med hard you can go with slightly more english. Soft tips will put more side spin on cb and translate more onto ob than a harder tip would do. In banking I like a med to med/hard tip.

        One Pocket is unlike other games; whereas other games banking short of corner pocket leaves the ball safe generally, but in one pocket it leaves it on end rail whereas it is not as much of a threat as it would be in front of the pocket.

        I think you are on your way, in figuring out your banks! Whitey
        Last edited by Dennis "Whitey" Young; 03-13-2019, 01:49 PM.

        Comment


        • #19
          possible reason for missing short
          when you go thru diamonds on the 2:1 ratio you actually hit the rail before the nose point in front of the diamond
          this tends to make the bank go 1/4 diamond short.
          if you hit the nose of the rail in front of the diamond you should make the bank
          these are natural type banks
          Click image for larger version

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          • #20
            Whitey, Howdy;

            I'm going to answer within your post using a Different color font.

            Originally posted by Dennis "Whitey" Young View Post
            Hi Hank,
            Well you discovered that yes you do have a pattern of missing, coming up short. I hope this is derived by using constant variables, such as using the same speed and english. You have to do this! Yes I did.
            I am assuming you are right handed! Yes I am
            I'd like you to put a stripe OB off the right 2nd diamond side rail, cb positioned on a line coming off the left 3rd diamond on opposite side rail. This will make you cut the ob slightly to pocket it cross corner. Right and left side of table is determined from looking at the table from the head of the table.
            So go ahead and bank it. I want you to watch the ob, it will have natural spin on it, spinning clockwise, this spin will gradually keep working on the ob to make it come short. This is pretty prevalent with most cushions. I can do this tomorrow before the 9-ball tourney. I can get
            an hour in before the others start to show up. Only 25 cents per rack so it
            ain't gonna break the piggy bank.


            To overcome this either; put an extra tip of natural english (for this shot right hand english), for this will make it run truer to the pocket, or overcut the ob slightly more, which will compensate for the spin counterworking on the ob.

            Now if your cushions do not put this spin on the ob ball then just cut the ob more, no extra english would be needed. Will see what happens before I try what you say in the paragraph above this one.

            If you take the cb only and stroke it with center ball from the 2nd diamond side rail into the 1st. diamond of opposite side rail, the cb will run a little short of the center of the corner pocket and hit the facing of the side rail pocket. To bank it into the center of the pocket aim about a chalk width past (which is towards the corner pocket side of diamond) the 1st diamond. So in banking the ob it is better not to spit the angle from 2nd diamond to 1st diamond, but to go with a little more angle to hit the center of pocket or cushion on end rail which will allow it to go in the hole. This effect is not so prevalent say on an angle from side pocket to 2nd diamond.

            If you are going to add a tip of natural (running) english to correct for coming short, I would advise to know your tip, and adjust accordingly. With soft tip I'd stay closer to center, med/med hard you can go with slightly more english. Soft tips will put more side spin on cb and translate more onto ob than a harder tip would do. In banking I like a med to med/hard tip. I use a Milkdud tip so I figure med. Hard to Hard

            One Pocket is unlike other games; whereas other games banking short of corner pocket leaves the ball safe generally, but in one pocket it leaves it on end rail whereas it is not as much of a threat as it would be in front of the pocket.

            I think you are on your way, in figuring out your banks! Whitey
            Thanks for the thoughts and the suggestions. As mentioned in our post,
            I have taken notes, made some diagrams and will see what happens. I'll
            be back with results.

            hank
            Striving for a less complicated life since 1949 ...

            Comment


            • #21
              lll,Howdy;

              Originally posted by lll View Post
              possible reason for missing short
              when you go thru diamonds on the 2:1 ratio you actually hit the rail before the nose point in front of the diamond
              this tends to make the bank go 1/4 diamond short.
              if you hit the nose of the rail in front of the diamond you should make the bank
              these are natural type banks
              [ATTACH]24127[/ATTACH]
              I'd thought about this and was keeping to the point of the rail in front of the
              diamond while using a centerball hit at medium speed. See above for my
              reply to Whitey. I can see if what you suggest helps any and will consolidate
              in next posting.
              Thanks very much for you thoughts.

              Ps. Also remember I'm working on a Valley Bar box made in the early 80's and
              was last recovered 10 years ago or so ...

              hank
              Last edited by hankh; 03-14-2019, 12:16 AM.
              Striving for a less complicated life since 1949 ...

              Comment


              • #22
                Hank & Larry;
                I am only advocating that shooting the cb from the 2nd diamond side rail going through the 1st diamond opposite side rail will hit the jaw face of cushion inside the pocket of the side rail. But elsewhere as Larry diagramed, I am not advocating that, for the angle opens up and it hits the center of the pocket by splitting the diamonds and shooting through them. At least on my table.
                This pertains to shooting the cb ball only, when banking the ob I would aim slightly past the split diamond, or face of diamond.

                I measured the distanced between diamonds, on my table it is 14 inches. And 14 inches from the 1st diamond to the corner pocket is not in the center of the pocket but to the jaw face of the side rail. I assume the diamond lay out would be the same on other tables.

                Larry, I am not sure if you made your diagram off of what you thought I said, or how some tables play. If there was some confusion, I am making it clearer on my part. I do not know how other tables play.

                Hank, I almost put Valley 8ft. bar box in my previous statement as being notorious for putting on that counterworking spin on the balls, that makes the ob come up short. Those tables are hard for me to adjust to, for the ob spins when banking and comes short. I believe this is why you are coming up short. on that table you might have to cut it more plus use a tip more of natural english to make the ob. Speed on banks can be very critical on Valley's.

                You can do those cross over side pocket cross side banks, where you 1 rail bank past the side pocket and it reverses back and comes backwards across side.

                This phenomena of ob spinning short of the pocket does not happen on my table.
                I hope this clears up some possible misconceptions. Whitey
                Last edited by Dennis "Whitey" Young; 03-14-2019, 11:38 AM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Whitey, Howdy;

                  Thanks for the clarification, It helps.

                  The Valley in question is a 7 footer and your comment " You can do those cross
                  over side pocket cross side banks, where you 1 rail bank past the side pocket
                  and it reverses back and goes back across side. " is one of the most frustrating
                  things about trying to figure this out with the equipment at hand. But, I figure
                  if I can learn on this one then it should be easy to adjust to other tables.

                  Continued appreciation form my end.

                  hank
                  Striving for a less complicated life since 1949 ...

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    please ignore the billiard shown its the table i want to represent
                    whitey this is for you and not to confuse hank
                    my response to hank was not in reference to your post but here is alitlle nerdy kind of stuff that i think you will appreciate.
                    on a billiard table there are 2 diamonds to represent the corner diamond on the end rail and the side rail respectively
                    the true corner actually is represented by 2 diamonds close together
                    the pic below is a billiard table with my yellow lines to represent the "facings" of a pocket... the back of the pocket is where the 2 close together diamonds would be.
                    most pool players use that as the corner diamond and for most purposes its close enough
                    but its not the true corner diamond
                    why do i bring this up
                    when you shoot thru diamonds the ball goes to(not across from) the diamonds
                    when you are at the 2nd diamond and shoot thru the 1st diamond
                    you can see the corner diamond is in the imaginary facing i drew
                    from a wider angle going towards that diamond would hit the rail ie short of the pocket
                    thats how i understand it
                    icbw
                    Click image for larger version

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                    • #25
                      lll, Howdy;

                      Not to worry about confusing me, already there. That's why I was asking for
                      some help figuring out the Banking bidness.

                      In Freddy's book he uses the 2 dots at the pocket sides in all the diagrams and
                      it fits with what Whitey was referring to when he said this, " I measured the
                      distanced between diamonds, on my table it is 14 inches. And 14 inches from
                      the 1st diamond to the corner pocket is not in the center of the pocket but to
                      the jaw face of the side rail. I assume the diamond lay out would be the same
                      on other tables. ". It would also fit with the 1 tip of Right English for the shot
                      being discussed or your 1 piece of chalk past the spot on the cushion. All stuff I
                      can look at and check-out in a little while.

                      Thank you both for your help, this is a fun project.

                      hank
                      Striving for a less complicated life since 1949 ...

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Larry,
                        The illustration, represents what I was trying to portray in words, in that equal distance measurement between diamonds, puts an imaginary diamond on the jaw face of the side rail, corner pocket.

                        I have not seen a billiard table with diamonds like that by the corners. Of course I haven't played on or seen a billiard table since '69.

                        In kicking the cb I can only speak how my table reacts, not others.

                        When my rails were faster, I would put the cb in the center of the corner pocket and to do a long rail kick shot into the opposite corner, I would hit past (like nearly a full ball) the center diamond on head rail to go directly into the center of the pocket. Now that the rails are slower I hit on the center diamond, for now the angle widens out more. But, the diamond systems used back in those days, it worked to perfection.

                        On a 3 rail kick from corner to opposite corner, I would aim through the 2nd far diamond side rail, cb came off 3rd diamond opposite side rail, and directly into center of hole. The diamond system was 5-2 is 3 and the 3rd diamond lined up for the corner pocket, or 2+3=5 and 5 is the corner pocket. Or 5-1=4 which is the side pocket. Or 6-1=5 which is 5 rails into the corner pocket, and so forth. 5 being the corner pocket and/or 5th diamond, 6 first diamond end rail. 7 the center diamond end rail - 2nd diamond far side rail =5, the two rail kick shot into the corner! All kicks using a little running english.

                        Billiard's table diamond system played one diamond shorter than the pool tables, on a 3 rail corner to corner kick shot. Now days, it is about a 1/2 diamond, maybe 1 diamond shorter on some tables.

                        I believe the diamond system was first contrived by Phelan.
                        Thanks, Larry

                        I wanted to add this since we have Hank on the line here, and he has researched dvd's & books on banks. Back decades ago, when I was doing banks as a daily practice, I had diagramed up all the ob banks from 1 rail on up to 7 rail banks. It takes a very fast table to do a 7 rail bank. Hank or anyone, has anyone ever diagramed up a 7 rail ob bank, that you know of. thanks, Whitey
                        Last edited by Dennis "Whitey" Young; 03-14-2019, 03:21 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          whitey we are in agreement.....
                          when you aimed a ball past the center diamond it was as i was trying to explain in my prior diagram about
                          when you aim at the diamond you hit the rail before the diamond
                          when you aim past the diamond you can hit the rail nose in front of the diamond
                          hank you dont need to pay attention to any of this....

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            whitey
                            here is a pic of a real billiard table with the corner diamonds marked
                            Click image for larger version

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by lll View Post
                              whitey
                              here is a pic of a real billiard table with the corner diamonds marked
                              [ATTACH]24129[/ATTACH]
                              Larry, here;s the correct Q ball number locations for the diamond system on a 3C table

                              Last edited by mr3cushion; 05-23-2019, 04:45 PM.

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                              • #30
                                Whitey & Larry, Howdy;

                                What planet are y'all from sez me running for the door

                                hank
                                Striving for a less complicated life since 1949 ...

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