Learning to play Bank pool question

[NH Steve]

Steve, I have a couple of questions about Kleber cushions.
1. Are they very lively, good speed? I am hoping so.
I am looking for cushions that will not allow poorly struck balls to still go into the pockets. This I find is a good indicator on how responsive the cushions are.
2. When doing a double cross side or double cross corner bank, does the ob hold its angle and not reverse off the 2nd cushion? I am hoping it holds it's angle.

These are the qualities I am looking for in cushions to replace my cushions and I need the two questions answered so I can go ahead and order Kleber cushions. Thanks, Whitey

I'm not sure I can answer the lively part, because I've played on some tables that seemed livelier, but I am not sure how to separate the cloth aspect and also I have heard that the height of the cushions makes a difference.

Once the cloth is worn in a bit, the pockets I play on are not very forgiving if you miss a little lol.

But regarding the z-banks -- for sure they are way more natural on the Kleber than on any other table I have ever plalyed on!! I love that, but I hate it also, because whatever you drill into your brain about how to make certain banks on those tables with Kleber, will only frustrate you when you go out to play on a typical table -- especially a Diamond -- so be careful what you wish for!!

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

I'm not sure I can answer the lively part, because I've played on some tables that seemed livelier, but I am not sure how to separate the cloth aspect and also I have heard that the height of the cushions makes a difference.

Once the cloth is worn in a bit, the pockets I play on are not very forgiving if you miss a little lol.

But regarding the z-banks -- for sure they are way more natural on the Kleber than on any other table I have ever plalyed on!! I love that, but I hate it also, because whatever you drill into your brain about how to make certain banks on those tables with Kleber, will only frustrate you when you go out to play on a typical table -- especially a Diamond -- so be careful what you wish for!!

Thanks Steve, that is exactly what I hoping they played like. It was important to hear 1st hand from someone that has actually played on them. thanks again! Whitey

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...l9AD6TFZrRmIe7

Hank, here is a video of Mosconi explaining and doing banks. Pay attention to what he is saying, for he makes a comment about the speed. Also he counts back from the intended pocket to determine the angle.
Now, he is setting up straight in banks, on the correct angle. Now there is something I have been wanting to discuss with you.
When the bank is almost dead straight but not and you have to back cut it slightly, meaning; the cb contacts over past the center line of the ob then one has to be very for it tends to put reverse on the bank, it should not but it does happen, and thus shortens up the bank. This phenomena is much more prevalent when the ob is 'closer to the rail'. To offset this phenomena if it is happening to you then use a 1/2 tip of natural english.

Center line in this case; is the line from the center of the cb to the center of the ob. Crossing over this and thus hitting the ball past center is a back cut.

I recommend using a 1/4 to a 1/2 tip of natural English on basic cross side and cross corner banks. On long rail, straight backs & back banks, use center cb ball, this will help in hitting the ob where you want to hit it. Unless it is a bank that requires special english.

If you are going to just pocket a ball on a bank then go with the best speed that works for you. You will notice this in Willie's banks, they are all stroked at the same speed. In Bugs video on banks he strokes his banks at the same speed. But, when playing a bank plus positioning then you have to go with the speed that gets you shape. Whitey

[hankh]

Whitey, Howdy;

Gonna have to chew on this information a bit. Trying to make sense outta words
is one of my short comings. Better if I can see what is to be learned. But, ...
this is what we got is what we got. So, let's make the best of it.

Couple of quick questions;

When you mentioned Back-cutting and natural English ...

Is Back-Cutting what Willie was doing when he moved the CB & OB off the track
line and there by generated an angle from the CB to the OB to the spot on the rail?
This would be akin to what Freddy refers to as a Cut-Bank.

If this is the case then I can see your reference to natural English being Out-side
English. How am I doing???

We get this straightened out and we'll walking on the same side of the street. chuckle

hank

[hankh]

Whitey & lll, Howdy;

9-Ball Thursday, Had a solid 2 hours of practice before it began. normal warm-ups
Twist drilled a rack from both distances, some work with the Corner-5 and Plus-2
to help keep the numbers correct. Then finished with 3 full racks of rotation and
banked what I could as I went along. Got my head into the rotation game mode
and some real good Banks practice as I went along. If it didn't go in I'd drag it
back and do it over each time I missed till they went in the hole like they're
supposed to.
Things went well, ended up on the B side ( I get to shoot more games), and ended
up against the Butt head again. Me having to win twice. I played a Safety game on him
which gets him into an "I gotta make this shot" mental state. Good for me not
so good for him. Honestly, I felt like a spider playin' with it's supper. It was FUN!
Yup, I won. It was a good day and a fun time.

hank

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Whitey, Howdy;

Gonna have to chew on this information a bit. Trying to make sense outta words
is one of my short comings. Better if I can see what is to be learned. But, ...
this is what we got is what we got. So, let's make the best of it.

Couple of quick questions;

When you mentioned Back-cutting and natural English ...

Is Back-Cutting what Willie was doing when he moved the CB & OB off the track
line and there by generated an angle from the CB to the OB to the spot on the rail?
This would be akin to what Freddy refers to as a Cut-Bank.

If this is the case then I can see your reference to natural English being Out-side
English. How am I doing???

We get this straightened out and we'll walking on the same side of the street. chuckle

hank

Yes, when you see Willie setting up the bank where he states; "it is not possible", that is a cut-bank, or going past center of what would be a straight in bank otherwise. On this as per Willie example I am advising using what would be left hand english or natural, or outside. Especially when the ob is close to the rail. Yes, you have it right.
I added a clarification on speed of stroke in my last post. Hope this is not all to confusing. I know you are going to work on it, and try to figure out what I am trying to convey.
What I am trying to convey is this; set up the balls for an absolute 2-1 straight in bank, then move the cb back slightly creating a slight back-cut. Now using center cb, hit it on angle to make it, I think you will find that the cb will reverse coming off the rail and you will come short of the side pocket. So therefore I am advocating using a little natural english to make the ob travel correctly. Whitey

[NH Steve]

I just watched Willie's bank shot segment from that. Obviously he oversimplifies a great deal lol. The first several cross side banks he actually uses speed to shorten them up because he has those shots set up such that they are not "mirrored" by true geometry, and he relies on the speed to shorten those up. But on the plus side, the way explains how to calculate the angle, he is actually accounting for the shortening effect because his geometry is from the cue ball at one diamond in the middle of the table, whereas the object ball is going one diamond up into the pocket all the way across the table. He just neglects to mention that his method of aiming there is making that adjustment.

Next he puts the object ball closer to the cushion and he again describes how to figure the angle the same way. That I would tend to disagree with -- balls close to the cushion have even more of a tendency to shorten than they do from out in the open, yet in this case he still describes what amounts to as equal in equal out. We all know, in real life on everything but Kleber (now apparently called Klematch or something like that) cushions, that is not always true -- in fact it is usually not true! He does mention "speed" in passing at least

Then he shows the cue ball moved down to where it would be a kiss, and he says you can't make it from there (because of the kiss). Well what about placing the cue ball somewhere in the eight inches in between from where it goes naturally to where he showed was obviously a kiss? That's where Taylor's knowledge and stroke would have made more banks working further down to where the balls eventually kissed.

[hankh]

NH Steve, Howdy;

Willie was Willie. Like a lot of folks that are extremely proficient and a lot of
folks that aren't so proficient yet are used to communicating with others that
speak the same sub-language. Good example is Whitey's and my recent exchange
where I had to ask for clarification about some terminology. I'm learning to bank
and need to learn to speak Banks. Same thing when I was learning to tye flies,
whole new meaning to words applied to certain specific applications. Willie was
communicating with experienced players not beginners.

Thanks for taking the time to explain Willie's words and actions on the video.
From my first asking and the help that I'm getting from lll & Whitey and now
yourself as well as the books and videos from Freddy I'm beginning to grasp
the concepts and the language of Banking.

Heartfelt thanks to you all.

hank

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

I just watched Willie's bank shot segment from that. Obviously he oversimplifies a great deal lol. The first several cross side banks he actually uses speed to shorten them up because he has those shots set up such that they are not "mirrored" by true geometry, and he relies on the speed to shorten those up. But on the plus side, the way explains how to calculate the angle, he is actually accounting for the shortening effect because his geometry is from the cue ball at one diamond in the middle of the table, whereas the object ball is going one diamond up into the pocket all the way across the table. He just neglects to mention that his method of aiming there is making that adjustment.

Next he puts the object ball closer to the cushion and he again describes how to figure the angle the same way. That I would tend to disagree with -- balls close to the cushion have even more of a tendency to shorten than they do from out in the open, yet in this case he still describes what amounts to as equal in equal out. We all know, in real life on everything but Kleber (now apparently called Klematch or something like that) cushions, that is not always true -- in fact it is usually not true! He does mention "speed" in passing at least

Then he shows the cue ball moved down to where it would be a kiss, and he says you can't make it from there (because of the kiss). Well what about placing the cue ball somewhere in the eight inches in between from where it goes naturally to where he showed was obviously a kiss? That's where Taylor's knowledge and stroke would have made more banks working further down to where the balls eventually kissed.

Steve, you are providing some good information. But in defense of Mosconi, this is an exhibition going out to the masses, not pool players, so yes he is overly simplifying the use of the diamonds, and making it easy for the masses to understand, and of course it is his job to get the everyday public to start playing pool! These banks would be 'exciting' for them. So you are right in pointing out the diamond system Mosconi is portraying is not exactly correct!

The Monarch Cushions rebound very well. And yes he is burying the ob into the cushion on the banks, which in turn does shorten up the angle and thus it goes into the hole. If he shot it at pocket speed it would of went by the side pocket by a 1/4 diamond. You are very correct in your statement!

But, it does demonstrate the speed he likes to stroke banks. Which I believe you would agree, by your standards, is what you would call optimal.

As far as grabbing reverse when the ob is close to the rail, this is true but not true for Monarch Cushions, but true for most all cushions of today. So yes I agree with your statement!
For Mosconi to demonstrate an off angle back-cut bank would of been to complicated for the masses, and ill advised. For why would Mosconi or Brunswick want joe blow beginner trying a shot he can not do or even figure out, so I can not knock Mosconi for not demonstrating these shots. Whitey

[hankh]

Whitey, Howdy;

Ok, had to go to T or C to get a new microwave, old one crapped out last night.

While driving I do some of my (IMO), better thinking. It became clear what you
were saying when you wrote this; " What I am trying to convey
is this; set up the balls for an absolute 2-1 straight in bank, then move the cb back
slightly creating a slight back-cut. Now using center cb, hit it on angle to make it, I
think you will find that the cb will reverse coming off the rail and you will come
short of the side pocket. So therefore I am advocating using a little natural english
to make the ob travel correctly. " I 'think' the back-cut
you are referring to is having the CB set up outside (closer to the end rail in Willie's
video), the natural 2:1 and the natural English would be what Freddy refers to as
"Acquired" English as the CB is sliding, inert, dead whatever you wish to call it.
Simply by contacting the OB at a slight angle the CB creates or induces English
to the OB and counter English to the CB the why the CB reverses off the rail.

How'm I doin???

Thanks as always to all for the thoughts and suggestions.

hank

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Whitey, Howdy;

Ok, had to go to T or C to get a new microwave, old one crapped out last night.

While driving I do some of my (IMO), better thinking. It became clear what you
were saying when you wrote this; " What I am trying to convey
is this; set up the balls for an absolute 2-1 straight in bank, then move the cb back
slightly creating a slight back-cut. Now using center cb, hit it on angle to make it, I
think you will find that the cb will reverse coming off the rail and you will come
short of the side pocket. So therefore I am advocating using a little natural english
to make the ob travel correctly. " I 'think' the back-cut
you are referring to is having the CB set up outside (closer to the end rail in Willie's
video), the natural 2:1 and the natural English would be what Freddy refers to as
"Acquired" English as the CB is sliding, inert, dead whatever you wish to call it.
Simply by contacting the OB at a slight angle the CB creates or induces English
to the OB and counter English to the CB the why the CB reverses off the rail.

How'm I doin???

Thanks as always to all for the thoughts and suggestions.

hank

No, set the bank up with a 'slight' back cut, but still use, in this case a tip of 'left' english. Practice these slight back cuts. The objective is to get the ob to come off the rail naturally. Whitey

[hankh]

Whitey, Howdy;

Ok, I need to bring the CB inside the angle, got it.
I'll be trying this before today's 8-ball tourney.
Thanks for the correction.

hank

[hankh]

Whitey, Howdy;

Think (again), I found a way to help with the misinterpretation of your suggestion.
Here's a video from Dr. Dave, I think what you are referring to is at 1:19.
if not can you point out (if it's there), where in the video it might show up.
Thanks, here it is;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_8Mu0lIyFg

Thanks for your patience and understanding.

hank

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Whitey, Howdy;

Think (again), I found a way to help with the misinterpretation of your suggestion.
Here's a video from Dr. Dave, I think what you are referring to is at 1:19.
if not can you point out (if it's there), where in the video it might show up.
Thanks, here it is;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_8Mu0lIyFg

Thanks for your patience and understanding.

hank

Go to 3:10 where it is a across corner bank where you have to cut the ob back. This is it, but only I am trying to portray this on a 'slight' angle, almost a straight bank but not quite. Absolutely no kiss involved.
I am saying this slight back cut needed to pocket the ball, can put reverse english on the ob and then it comes up short of the pocket. So try this shot and see how it works for you. If you are getting the reverse action on the ob then you need to use outside english to offset this.
I know this flies directly in the face of what should happen, but nonetheless it can happen.
So even on a slight back cut, I suggest using a tip of outside english (natural). Whitey

[hankh]

Whitey, Howdy;

Go to 3:10 where it is a across corner bank where you have to cut the ob back. This is it, but only I am trying to portray this on a 'slight' angle, almost a straight bank but not quite. Absolutely no kiss involved.
I am saying this slight back cut needed to pocket the ball, can put reverse english on the ob and then it comes up short of the pocket. So try this shot and see how it works for you. If you are getting the reverse action on the ob then you need to use outside english to offset this.
I know this flies directly in the face of what should happen, but nonetheless it can happen.
So even on a slight back cut, I suggest using a tip of outside english (natural). Whitey

Got it.
Thanks for your patience. Been playin' pool since 1962 but never learned the "Language". What I get for just hangin' out at bar tables.
I'll work this into Mondays practice session and let ya know what happens.

Thanks again.

hank