Bank lesson 2: how do you get max ob spin on cut banks

John Brumback

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john dont mean to be nit picky ....:eek:
but just to be clear
is it the english or the change of angle to the pocket that makes the pocket play big or small(tight)??
said another way
a flatter angle to the pocket(short) plays bigger than
a steeper angle (long)

I think it takes one to do the other,so... I think your right and don't worry bout
being nit picky:lol JB

Disclaimer...I'm no science geek about pool balls but I do know what works good as what doesn't. That's all I try to get across. I could care less about what really happens under a microscope :lol
 

John Brumback

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John highlights another factor that top bankers consider on banks that utilize only a fraction of the pocket - the spin of the ball (this is also referred to as "pocketing english.") I think this is important, especially on Diamonds that have the deep shelves. However, I would assert that it is impossible to bank a ball into a pocket and the object ball have draw on it. The cushion will turn the draw into follow, and even if it didn't, the cloth would then burn it off.

It works on all pool tables..not just Diamonds:) JB
 

John Brumback

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I can make the ob curve by cueing up through the cue ball ( top english) ( alot of balls that are in some peoples baking path are not in my way or path,pretty strong difference )...I can't get them to curve using low...sob always goes to long:lol JB
 

straightback

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I can make the ob curve by cueing up through the cue ball ( top english) ( alot of balls that are in some peoples baking path are not in my way or path,pretty strong difference )...I can't get them to curve using low...sob always goes to long:lol JB

Ah, yes, John, we have seen you drill those straight backs. Might be the prettiest shot in pool watching a striped ball go 18 feet to the pocket with curl!

I assume you are talking about "holding" a straight back bank when there are other balls in the natural alley of the bank. In other words, you can get the same effect by kicking a ball with inside draw and watch it as it comes off the rail. I agree with you - the curl (slide) off the cushion allows the bank to arc very slightly. These are highly satisfying to plan and hit. Anyone can hit them but not just anyone can recognize when the lay of the balls will is ripe for this. Seems to work better on near-new cloth that will grab a bit on the cushion but also slide on its way to the pocket.

Hey, John, while we're on this, let's assume we have a straight back bank - how far do you estimate the ball to arc away from its normal line on a firm hit? What about a slow hit? My guess would be one inch and two inches, respectively.
 

John Brumback

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Ah, yes, John, we have seen you drill those straight backs. Might be the prettiest shot in pool watching a striped ball go 18 feet to the pocket with curl!

I assume you are talking about "holding" a straight back bank when there are other balls in the natural alley of the bank. In other words, you can get the same effect by kicking a ball with inside draw and watch it as it comes off the rail. I agree with you - the curl (slide) off the cushion allows the bank to arc very slightly. These are highly satisfying to plan and hit. Anyone can hit them but not just anyone can recognize when the lay of the balls will is ripe for this. Seems to work better on near-new cloth that will grab a bit on the cushion but also slide on its way to the pocket.

Hey, John, while we're on this, let's assume we have a straight back bank - how far do you estimate the ball to arc away from its normal line on a firm hit? What about a slow hit? My guess would be one inch and two inches, respectively.

I was really thinking and talking about the way I shoot cross sides and cross corners,but I guess it's the same thing with a straight back too. I think it looks better or you can see it better with a big wide cross side when I warp it with alot of top,the o ball will be fighting it's way to come back to the pocket and give me alot better angle coming to the pocket hence bigger pocket;) I'll talk with ya somemore about this.. right now tho I have some cold drinks calling my name.:lol JB
 

Billy Jackets

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Are you playing the banks at pocket speed,
like you would normally at one pocket?
That might be why they are coming up shorter than you think they should.
Too hard is also no good because it will shorten them up.
Try shooting the shots at a table and a half speed and 2 table lengths and see if they go longer.
 

tylerdurden

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I was really thinking and talking about the way I shoot cross sides and cross corners,but I guess it's the same thing with a straight back too. I think it looks better or you can see it better with a big wide cross side when I warp it with alot of top,the o ball will be fighting it's way to come back to the pocket and give me alot better angle coming to the pocket hence bigger pocket;) I'll talk with ya somemore about this.. right now tho I have some cold drinks calling my name.:lol JB

John, or anybody, I am having trouble visualizing this. I see what you are saying for a side pocket.... you cut it into the rail close as you can get to the side pocket on the rail opposite the pocket you are shooting for, and the pocket is bigger from that shortened up angle. I totally see it.

But, when you talk about this same principle on the corner pockets (straightbacks or cross corners), the ob would then be coming more down the rail (as opposed to more toward the center of the table) the more you stiffen it. Pockets do tend to get smaller I think on a pool table the closer ob get to rails.

Am I visualizing this wrong? :confused:.... you know me, not trying to argue but just trying to fully understand how you shoot the cross sides vs the cross corners.... if there is any difference in the way you shoot them, or not?
 

tylerdurden

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I have another discussion point, maybe this got brought up already in another thread, but here is a another reason shortening bank angles may be better (again, maybe you guys have said this, but i am just figuring it out in my head:confused:)...... because when you shorten an angle up you are really now judging that very small angle. It is like kicking.... if you have to kick at a big or wide angle, it is tougher..... very small angles (say a 5 degree kick angle out of 360 degrees), it is easier to judge.

Am I on track here as to another reason why shortening them up helps.... so you can "see" the angle better?
 

androd

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I have another discussion point, maybe this got brought up already in another thread, but here is a another reason shortening bank angles may be better (again, maybe you guys have said this, but i am just figuring it out in my head:confused:)...... because when you shorten an angle up you are really now judging that very small angle. It is like kicking.... if you have to kick at a big or wide angle, it is tougher..... very small angles (say a 5 degree kick angle out of 360 degrees), it is easier to judge.

Am I on track here as to another reason why shortening them up helps.... so you can "see" the angle better?

The more parallel to the rail the better the pockets (even tougher pockets) take the ball, When the OB hits the rail, the inside English then hits the flat part of the pocket and takes it in. :)
Rod.
 

John Brumback

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The more parallel to the rail the better the pockets (even tougher pockets) take the ball, When the OB hits the rail, the inside English then hits the flat part of the pocket and takes it in. :)
Rod.

Rod nailed it !! Therein lies the secret to strong banking, fellas. There is no way I could have said that any better or as good.:lol Thanks Rod !! :) JB
 

tylerdurden

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And the inside english you guys are talking about is induced from the hit on the cb, correct. I think I got it now.

Thanks!!
 

John Brumback

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And the inside english you guys are talking about is induced from the hit on the cb, correct. I think I got it now.

Thanks!!

Yes,inside will help as long as you make the cue ball move forward with stun or follow,draw will negate any helping english you had on the o ball and you will lose the method that makes the pocket play bigger. Clear as mud aint it:lol JB
 
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