Bank lesson 2: how do you get max ob spin on cut banks

[John Brumback]

Right, I think one good way to put it is.... for max throw on full hits spin needs to be used to get max english on the ob (john mentioned when the cb stops dead is the most transfer he sees), yet on half ball hits i think the cling using center is the best way to get the max spin on the ob.

Probably doesn't mean much but I would call it "max turn" instead of "max spin" If that makes since or helps you any.Ya'll are doin good! Keep it up.
I'm taking notes ya know.John B.

 

[tylerdurden]

Probably doesn't mean much but I would call it "max turn" instead of "max spin" If that makes since or helps you any.Ya'll are doin good! Keep it up.
I'm taking notes ya know.John B.

Ha! Thanks for dropping by John! Max turn it is.

I got a chance to play a little with that max turn with a "stopping dead" cb today... very good stuff... thanks again for all the tips.

Regards.

 

[Dudley]

Probably doesn't mean much but I would call it "max turn" instead of "max spin" If that makes since or helps you any.Ya'll are doin good! Keep it up.
I'm taking notes ya know.John B.

Can I get a look at your notes when your done???

Always appreciate your input buddy,

Dud

 

[tylerdurden]

Can I get a look at your notes when your done???

Always appreciate your input buddy,

Dud

I agree. We need to archive those notes and put them in the Smithsonian or something

 

[tylerdurden]

Tyler,


There is a perfect amount of spin to achieve max throw. Obviously the thicker the hit the more spin you need to throw the ball.
Using the gear explanation when cutting the ball the gear is already turning so if there is a maximum amount of speed that the gear can grab and make maximum throw you would need less and less english the more you cut the ball. (based on your testing this seems like up to a half ball)

This might be just repeating what you have said but I thought this might add something to the conversation.

I am not as knowledgeable as most here on this forum, but I do know a little.

Dud

I just went through and reread this, and I 100% agree with you Dud. At the time, I did not have this fully clear in my head, and as you mentioned previously, I think when I did that experiment (I have never repeated it), I was using quite a bit of inside.

Now, my personal opinion is as you say, max spin with a tad of inside..... center ball will also give you a bunch however.

 

[straightback]

Turn, turn, turn

Turn, turn, turn

If it were me, I'd work with center ball only. There are a few cutesy shots where you can load the ball with inside to give the object ball even more turn, but they are typically restricted to where the object ball is on a rail and the CB is very close.

I say this for a couple reasons - for 1/2 ball hits, you're already getting a sh*tload of turn anyhow. Second, the marginal amount of extra turn you get is somewhat negated by having to calculate the deflection that accompanys the inside English. Third, English transfer (aka the gear effect) is much less with inside English than it is with outside English. Finally, if it was good enough for Eddie Taylor, it's good enough for me.

 

[tylerdurden]

If it were me, I'd work with center ball only. There are a few cutesy shots where you can load the ball with inside to give the object ball even more turn, but they are typically restricted to where the object ball is on a rail and the CB is very close.

I say this for a couple reasons - for 1/2 ball hits, you're already getting a sh*tload of turn anyhow. Second, the marginal amount of extra turn you get is somewhat negated by having to calculate the deflection that accompanys the inside English. Third, English transfer (aka the gear effect) is much less with inside English than it is with outside English. Finally, if it was good enough for Eddie Taylor, it's good enough for me.

I definitely agree with most everything you said. It is poor of me to speak in absolutes though, because there are so many different cut angles, and differing amount of induced turn will change depending on those angles.

Videos are better..... in relation to what you were saying above, here is an example where I think (or maybe I should say John thinks) a hair of inside will get you more than just center. As I said, my bad for talking in absolutes before. I do like to work with centerball too, because it stiffens balls at pretty much the max, yet your accuracy is so mush better. But, as you know, when the cut angle is a little more straight as in the vid, a tad of spin will be necessary. All other cases, center ball is def a players best friend.

Anyway, here is the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1cRe9nL2rk

Here is another good one where John talks about what he is using on each bank. I would love to get him to expand on his comment about "not liking to use draw" on his banks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCLxeQjwBPE

 

[Dudley]

I just went through and reread this, and I 100% agree with you Dud. At the time, I did not have this fully clear in my head, and as you mentioned previously, I think when I did that experiment (I have never repeated it), I was using quite a bit of inside.

Now, my personal opinion is as you say, max spin with a tad of inside..... center ball will also give you a bunch however.

I am rereading this as the thread is active again... While I know what I meant to say it's really unclear from the text.

There are many different cut angles and lots going on with different banks.

Between the beards vids and books and Brumbacks DVD I've learned a bunch since this thread.

It's fuzzy to describe certain banks as thin and thick but man depending on how thick or thin you are hitting a bank it makes a big difference how you shoot it. (re choice of english)

Still good stuff in this thread though.

Dudley

 

[straightback]

I definitely agree with most everything you said. It is poor of me to speak in absolutes though, because there are so many different cut angles, and differing amount of induced turn will change depending on those angles.

Videos are better..... in relation to what you were saying above, here is an example where I think (or maybe I should say John thinks) a hair of inside will get you more than just center. As I said, my bad for talking in absolutes before. I do like to work with centerball too, because it stiffens balls at pretty much the max, yet your accuracy is so mush better. But, as you know, when the cut angle is a little more straight as in the vid, a tad of spin will be necessary. All other cases, center ball is def a players best friend.

Anyway, here is the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1cRe9nL2rk

Here is another good one where John talks about what he is using on each bank. I would love to get him to expand on his comment about "not liking to use draw" on his banks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCLxeQjwBPE

As for draw, there are a few reasons to not use it unnecessarily. First, ANY English tends to decrease accuracy compared to center ball. And second, and this is probably why bankers stay away from it, is that it makes banks run long because of English transfer. I'm sure many will argue that it helps them shorten up a ball but this just isn't the case in reality.

 

[straightback]

Okay, I see the bank you're talking about, more or less the "Grady" bank. That bank can be made with center ball, but because the angle is fairly slight, a whisker of inside spins the ball a touch more. I see what you were getting at originally now. But do be advised, the amount of English transfer you get from inside English is just a fraction of what you get with outside English.

 

[New 2 You Qs]

As for draw, there are a few reasons to not use it unnecessarily. First, ANY English tends to decrease accuracy compared to center ball. And second, and this is probably why bankers stay away from it, is that it makes banks run long because of English transfer. I'm sure many will argue that it helps them shorten up a ball but this just isn't the case in reality.

I agree with this assessment for the most part, however, I do believe there are a few select shots where draw actually does shorten the bank.

 

[gulfportdoc]

As for draw, there are a few reasons to not use it unnecessarily. First, ANY English tends to decrease accuracy compared to center ball. And second, and this is probably why bankers stay away from it, is that it makes banks run long because of English transfer. I'm sure many will argue that it helps them shorten up a ball but this just isn't the case in reality.

That's correct, StraightBack. Draw spin on the CB will cause the OB to pick up follow spin; whereas follow spin on the CB will cause the OB to pick up draw spin. Therefore I don't see how draw spin on a CB could ever cause a bank to shorten, unless it's shot very hard. But that shortening would be the result of velocity and rail compression, not draw spin.

On the other hand, follow spin on the CB would tend to cause the OB bank angle to shorten.

~Doc

 

[tylerdurden]

As for draw, there are a few reasons to not use it unnecessarily. First, ANY English tends to decrease accuracy compared to center ball. And second, and this is probably why bankers stay away from it, is that it makes banks run long because of English transfer. I'm sure many will argue that it helps them shorten up a ball but this just isn't the case in reality.

Right, def makes them go longer.

Curious what was the Eddie Taylor quote or philosophy you referred to about using center ball?

 

[straightback]

That's correct, StraightBack. Draw spin on the CB will cause the OB to pick up follow spin; whereas follow spin on the CB will cause the OB to pick up draw spin. Therefore I don't see how draw spin on a CB could ever cause a bank to shorten, unless it's shot very hard. But that shortening would be the result of velocity and rail compression, not draw spin.

On the other hand, follow spin on the CB would tend to cause the OB bank angle to shorten.

~Doc

Yes, but it would have to be close to a cushion to matter as there was is not much transfer because the cloth burns off draw faster than any other English. Come to think of it, if you ask any banker, I will wager they will say they've rarely if ever used high English to shorten a bank. For my money, banks are best shortened with speed and a bit of outside center ball.

Tyler, Eddie Taylor was of the mind that center ball should be used nearly all the time and that you should learn how balls naturally turn at varying angles and speeds. I didn't know the man, but we can safely assume he'd be in favor of English in situations where the ball had to be turned to pocket it.

 

[tylerdurden]

One this high ball topic, I will say I do see good bankers shorten banks when the ob is very close to the rail by putting that one or 2 ball follow stroke on the cb. I think the take home important message when it comes to this, as Dud said earlier in the thread, that slight amount of spin may work the best. So, in a situation where you need to tighten a ball up that is near the rail, a tad of follow seems like it would theoretically do the trick, and that is what I see some of the guys doing too. This is all of course preaching to the choir when speaking to Kentuckians Us out west have no clue about this stuff though (i should speak for myself, I know).

 

[straightback]

One this high ball topic, I will say I do see good bankers shorten banks when the ob is very close to the rail by putting that one or 2 ball follow stroke on the cb. I think the take home important message when it comes to this, as Dud said earlier in the thread, that slight amount of spin may work the best. So, in a situation where you need to tighten a ball up that is near the rail, a tad of follow seems like it would theoretically do the trick, and that is what I see some of the guys doing too. This is all of course preaching to the choir when speaking to Kentuckians Us out west have no clue about this stuff though (i should speak for myself, I know).

The main reason we use high when the ball is close to a cushion is so that we don't catch a scratch that center ball stun will give you on a near-full hit. Of course, there are some banks that for some reason are seen as "dead" when the ball is on the cushion and high English is used. Many cross-sides with the ball close to the cushion are shot this way so that you hit the ball full in the face (its dead) versus cutting it a whisker. I had not considered the English transfer on these shots. Truth is, most of us hit them so hard that (1) there is not much gear effect and (2) if there is, you can't readily see it.

I have seen and practiced hitting banks all kind of ways. I think you will find center ball will be waiting for you at the end of your journey. As you know, there are so many factors that go into calculating a bank, so why further complicate a near-zero tolerance shot with deflection and English transfer? A good rule of thumb is to ditch all English whatsoever on long, tough striaghtbacks unless you must use it to avoid a double kiss. Focus on the CB punch and get that "butterscotch" bank stroke going.

Where English is required, a tip max will do the trick except for those balls that naturally get the wrong friction-induced English - those shots require YOU to produce the proper turn. (Best example is the famous Nicky Vachiano bank). Better shape your tip if you wanna turn that sucker in! That is one of my pet banks that practice - they come up quite a bit.

 

[NH Steve]

The main reason we use high when the ball is close to a cushion is so that we don't catch a scratch that center ball stun will give you on a near-full hit. Of course, there are some banks that for some reason are seen as "dead" when the ball is on the cushion and high English is used. Many cross-sides with the ball close to the cushion are shot this way so that you hit the ball full in the face (its dead) versus cutting it a whisker. I had not considered the English transfer on these shots. Truth is, most of us hit them so hard that (1) there is not much gear effect and (2) if there is, you can't readily see it.

I have seen and practiced hitting banks all kind of ways. I think you will find center ball will be waiting for you at the end of your journey. As you know, there are so many factors that go into calculating a bank, so why further complicate a near-zero tolerance shot with deflection and English transfer? A good rule of thumb is to ditch all English whatsoever on long, tough striaghtbacks unless you must use it to avoid a double kiss. Focus on the CB punch and get that "butterscotch" bank stroke going.

Where English is required, a tip max will do the trick except for those balls that naturally get the wrong friction-induced English - those shots require YOU to produce the proper turn. (Best example is the famous Nicky Vachiano bank). Better shape your tip if you wanna turn that sucker in! That is one of my pet banks that practice - they come up quite a bit.

Can you describe what this is? He was before my time.

"the famous Nicky Vachiano bank"

Okay, maybe I just found it, courtesy of The Beard's DVD -- you will have to scroll down to the actual shot:
http://dvdpreviewclips.blogspot.com/

 

[John Brumback]

High and or center cue ( stun ) ball holds the ob...draw makes the ob go long. Draw makes the pocket play tight... high makes the pocket play loose. Myself,I like to make the pockets play big as I can.:lol JB

 

[straightback]

High and or center cue ( stun ) ball holds the ob...draw makes the ob go long. Draw makes the pocket play tight... high makes the pocket play loose. Myself,I like to make the pockets play big as I can.:lol JB

John highlights another factor that top bankers consider on banks that utilize only a fraction of the pocket - the spin of the ball (this is also referred to as "pocketing english.") I think this is important, especially on Diamonds that have the deep shelves. However, I would assert that it is impossible to bank a ball into a pocket and the object ball have draw on it. The cushion will turn the draw into follow, and even if it didn't, the cloth would then burn it off.

 

[lll]

High and or center cue ( stun ) ball holds the ob...draw makes the ob go long. Draw makes the pocket play tight... high makes the pocket play loose. Myself,I like to make the pockets play big as I can.:lol JB

john dont mean to be nit picky ....
but just to be clear
is it the english or the change of angle to the pocket that makes the pocket play big or small(tight)??
said another way
a flatter angle to the pocket(short) plays bigger than
a steeper angle (long)