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J. Brumback vs. J. Miller 2004 D.C.C.#2

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  • J. Brumback vs. J. Miller 2004 D.C.C.#2

    Jason banked the 9 ball cross-side from where John left him and went up & down the table with the rock to this position. What would you shoot from here?

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  • #2
    First principle

    Definitely, do not shoot the 3 ball straight back and follow the cue ball to the rail and behind the 6 and 7. At first glance it looks like a "free" shot, when actually you are taking the worst of it. You see, whatever straight back he leaves you either the 6 or 7, is going to be a better and easier bank than the one he is shooting at, if for no other reason than you would be at least 4 feet closer to the object ball.

    The principle you would be violating -- and its a strong one-- is, If at all possible, do not shoot at a difficult shot if you are going to leave an easier one if you miss. Simple and effective, and will keep you ahead of the percentage game. In this case the 3 ball can be classified as a difficult shot due to distance. And since I do have an option, I would shoot the 2 ball in.

    The maneuvering's at that point we can discuss later.

    Beard
    New stuff on my site. 100s of pgs. of pool goodness
    www.bankingwiththebeard.com

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Cowboy Dennis View Post
      Jason banked the 9 ball cross-side from where John left him and went up & down the table with the rock to this position. What would you shoot from here?

      CAUTION: Pictures are sometimes deceptive


      [ATTACH]5645[/ATTACH]

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      If the 3 ball is bankable I would bank it and float the cue ball to the center of the bottom rail. With this shot you are either going to make the 3 ball and put yourself in the one hole, or position the 3 ball in an almost dead position, leaving only two balls that are open for banks. This option lends to Freddies point of keeping only as many balls in play as you need, and less than your opponent needs.

      Dr. Bill
      Last edited by wincardona; 03-15-2012, 03:13 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Cowboy Dennis View Post
        Jason banked the 9 ball cross-side from where John left him and went up & down the table with the rock to this position. What would you shoot from here?

        CAUTION: Pictures are sometimes deceptive


        [ATTACH]5645[/ATTACH]

        [ATTACH]5646[/ATTACH]
        You have a point with your reason for not shooting the 3 ball, but imo the score and the position of the balls should supersede your logic.

        If you're not going to shoot the 3 ball, why would you make the 2 ball?
        I think by making the 2 ball you increase your opponents chance of winning by putting another ball in play, and also by making the 3 ball a better option for him, than it was for you. If anything I would play softly into the 2 ball without making it and offer my opponent the same shot on the 3 ball that you didn't like. And if he makes the 2 ball you will then have an option of either banking the 3 ball or doing something else. But regardless, I would shoot the 3 ball bank and gamble from that position, I like my gamble with that shot considering the score and the ball position.

        *Lets take the 6 ball off the table and now both players need two balls, shooting the 3 ball bank from this position is much less of an option then before. Plus pocketing the 2 ball now becomes a better option then it was before.*Different score, different ball position.

        Making the 2 ball is a shot I definitely wouldn't shoot from the position referenced. Banking the 3 ball is playing the percentages, imo.

        Dr. Bill
        Last edited by wincardona; 03-15-2012, 03:50 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Musnt be worth much...

          Originally posted by wincardona View Post
          If the 3 ball is bankable I would bank it and float the cue ball to the center of the bottom rail. With this shot you are either going to make the 3 ball and put yourself in the one hole, or position the 3 ball in an almost dead position, leaving only two balls that are open for banks. This option lends to Freddies point of keeping only as many balls in play as you need, and less than your opponent needs.

          Dr. Bill
          Then I guess the principle below mustnt be worth much, since you certainly blew right past it. You even suggested that the percentages were with you. That can only mean that the straight back on the 6 or 7 which is only 2 feet away from the cue ball is harder, percentage wise than shooting the 3 ball bank which is 8 feet away from you??
          If at all possible, do not shoot at a difficult shot if you are going to leave an easier one if you miss.

          All I can say is that it is certainly worth it to me. I believe it is one of the strongest axioms you can follow in bank pool.

          Beard
          New stuff on my site. 100s of pgs. of pool goodness
          www.bankingwiththebeard.com

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by wincardona View Post
            You have a point with your reason for not shooting the 3 ball, but imo the score and the position of the balls should supersede your logic.

            If you're not going to shoot the 3 ball, why would you make the 2 ball?
            I think by making the 2 ball you increase your opponents chance of winning by putting another ball in play, and also by making the 3 ball a better option for him, than it was for you. If anything I would play softly into the 2 ball without making it and offer my opponent the same shot on the 3 ball that you didn't like. And if he makes the 2 ball you will then have an option of either banking the 3 ball or doing something else. But regardless, I would shoot the 3 ball bank and gamble from that position, I like my gamble with that shot considering the score and the ball position.

            *Lets take the 6 ball off the table and now both players need two balls, shooting the 3 ball bank from this position is much less of an option then before. Plus pocketing the 2 ball now becomes a better option then it was before.*Different score, different ball position.

            Making the 2 ball is a shot I definitely wouldn't shoot from the position referenced. Banking the 3 ball is playing the percentages, imo.

            Dr. Bill

            You are incorrectly assuming that I wasnt fully aware of the consequences of shooting the 2 ball in. I said, quote:
            "I would shoot the 2 ball in.The maneuvering's at that point we can discuss later."

            I didnt want to go into the depth of the 2 ball shoot in at that point. I had already spent a lot of conversation on not shooting the 3 ball.

            Of course I was aware that just shooting in the 2 ball and staying right there would not turn the 3 ball shot into a legitimate one. With the spotting of the 2 ball behind the 7 ball, you would be protected sufficiently to be able to roll at the 3. You would need to be bad luck to leave a nice return shot on the 6.

            Rather than just "shoot in the 2 ball," Depending on how I felt, I would either shoot in the 2 and roll forward trying for a corner hook (I provide lessons on my site as to the different ways to corner hook an opponent), or I would shoot in the 2 and pull the cue ball far enough up the long rail to put the 3 ball into kiss (or even less cue ball control) territory.

            Beard

            This makes the 44th straight shot option that I was wrong on -- in your humble opinion. Amazing. Is this a pattern? As weak a shotmaker as I was, how the hell did I ever beat a human?
            New stuff on my site. 100s of pgs. of pool goodness
            www.bankingwiththebeard.com

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by fred bentivegna View Post
              This makes the 44th straight shot option that I was wrong on -- in your humble opinion. Amazing. Is this a pattern? As weak a shotmaker as I was, how the hell did I ever beat a human?
              Beard
              Freddy,

              I don't want to pump up your ego too much but I think it's only the 43rd straight bank-pool shot-option that you were wrong on.

              RBL

              Comment


              • #8
                Oh yeah?

                Originally posted by Cowboy Dennis View Post
                Beard
                Freddy,

                I don't want to pump up your ego too much but I think it's only the 43rd straight bank-pool shot-option that you were wrong on.

                RBL
                Check post #38 on the Dalton, Mizerak thread in the 1pkt forum.

                Beard
                New stuff on my site. 100s of pgs. of pool goodness
                www.bankingwiththebeard.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by fred bentivegna View Post
                  Check post #38 on the Dalton, Mizerak thread in the 1pkt forum.

                  Beard
                  That was one-pocket. I agreed with you anyway even though I didn't completely write it down, I would've hit the bank with inside-draw (on a forgiving table) and spun up behind the balls near the spot.

                  RBL

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Whether it be the 43rd. 44th. or 50th. straight time I disagreed with you, I present my case and explain my reasons.

                    As far as this situation is concerned by shooting the 3 ball leading 3 balls to 2 balls, you're not only shooting a shot that can put you in the one hole, but you're positioning another ball out of play (3 ball) Now there are only two balls that are considered in play, the 6 and 7 balls. Even if you don't make the 3 ball, from the position you leave the cue ball in, your opponent is lucky to get one from there. And he's certainly not going to get more than one.

                    We all have our way of thinking at the table, and it's basically related to how we gamble. You say that you should never shoot a bank that is more difficult than the one you leave if you miss. I say bullshit, that's the 44th straight time I disagreed with you. I can name many scenarios where your axiom doesn't apply, and this happens to be one of them, imo.

                    And as far as shooting the 2 ball in, to me that would be inviting problems, and i'm not going to do that.

                    You make a lot of good points, as do I, and if either you or I disagree all we can do is offer an explanation why we see it differently and move on. Let the players that want to learn make up their own mind, who knows maybe the'll take a little from both of us.

                    Dr. Bill

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Cowboy Dennis View Post
                      That was one-pocket. I agreed with you anyway even though I didn't completely write it down, I would've hit the bank with inside-draw (on a forgiving table) and spun up behind the balls near the spot.

                      RBL
                      Yes you're right, that was one pocket but the game had nothing to do with what I said. I know how much 1 tip of english is, and I also know how much turn stays with the cue ball when it travels a certain distance. And if you're going to try to play position for the balls that Freddie and you are referring to, you need a hell of a lot more than 1 tip of inside english.

                      You say that's one of your favorite shots on a forgiving table, well to me it's a tough shot on any table. Now if you didn't have to draw the cue ball 4 ft. before it hit the bottom rail I can see your point, and 1 tip of english would probably suffice.

                      Another thing, why didn't Daulton use the inside english playing position for the other balls? Maybe he thought it would make the shot play too tough, that's what i'm thinking. Plus he's got a much better stroke than you, Freddie, and me.

                      Dr. Bill

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by wincardona View Post
                        Yes you're right, that was one pocket but the game had nothing to do with what I said. I know how much 1 tip of english is, and I also know how much turn stays with the cue ball when it travels a certain distance. And if you're going to try to play position for the balls that Freddie and you are referring to, you need a hell of a lot more than 1 tip of inside english.

                        You say that's one of your favorite shots on a forgiving table, well to me it's a tough shot on any table. Now if you didn't have to draw the cue ball 4 ft. before it hit the bottom rail I can see your point, and 1 tip of english would probably suffice.

                        Another thing, why didn't Daulton use the inside english playing position for the other balls? Maybe he thought it would make the shot play too tough, that's what i'm thinking. Plus he's got a much better stroke than you, Freddie, and me.

                        Dr. Bill
                        Bill,

                        I don't know what a tip of english is, I either hit it over there, over here, up there or down there.

                        Yes, it's a tough shot but it was always one of my favorites because nobody ever expected that shot from there. I'll give you this though, the distance on this shot would give me pause but maybe not dissuade me from shooting it. It's much tougher with inside-draw.

                        Dennis

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Paying attention

                          Originally posted by wincardona View Post

                          ... And as far as shooting the 2 ball in, to me that would be inviting problems, and i'm not going to do that. ---Thats absurd. I described what I would do re shooting the 2 ball in. Please inform me what sort of "problems" might I encounter, either "corner hooking" you or moving the cue ball up along the long rail and leaving you with a now, bad angle on the 3 and the cue ball 7 feet away from the closest ball.

                          You make a lot of good points, as do I, and if either you or I disagree all we can do is offer an explanation why we see it differently and move on. Let the players that want to learn make up their own mind, who knows maybe the'll take a little from both of us.
                          Since you havent agreed with any suggestion I have made in a month (or more), just what were some of those "good points" that you found in my posts? I dont seem to remember any.


                          Dr. Bill
                          and finally,
                          .... You say that you should never shoot a bank that is more difficult than the one you leave if you miss. I say bullshit, that's the 44th straight time I disagreed with you. I can name many scenarios where your axiom doesn't apply, and this happens to be one of them, imo.


                          Either you missed the first part of my axiom that stated, "If at all possible...you should never shoot a bank that is more difficult than the one you leave if you miss." Well, I gotta tell the truth, that is probably the absolute best advice I have to give regarding bank pool. That is the best I got. If that dont get it, than I am out of place on this here bank forum.
                          You call that bullshit, and apparently either everybody agrees with you or they are too intimidated to say anything. In either case, I'm wasting my time, and I am not going to waste anymore defending something as obviously correct as that axiom. I take this shit too seriously. I will leave you to lead the pack into banking stardom.

                          Beard
                          New stuff on my site. 100s of pgs. of pool goodness
                          www.bankingwiththebeard.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            [QUOT
                            Originally Posted by wincardona

                            ... And as far as shooting the 2 ball in, to me that would be inviting problems, and i'm not going to do that. ---Thats absurd. I described what I would do re shooting the 2 ball in. Please inform me what sort of "problems" might I encounter, either "corner hooking" you or moving the cue ball up along the long rail and leaving you with a now, bad angle on the 3 and the cue ball 7 feet away from the closest ball. Aren't you forgetting about the most important principle? That would be not putting more balls in play when your opponent can't win with the balls that are in play, but you can?

                            You make a lot of good points, as do I, and if either you or I disagree all we can do is offer an explanation why we see it differently and move on. Let the players that want to learn make up their own mind, who knows maybe the'll take a little from both of us.
                            Since you havent agreed with any suggestion I have made in a month (or more), just what were some of those "good points" that you found in my posts? I dont seem to remember any. You really can't be serious right? I have agreed with a lot of what you say, but there were many times that your shot choice imo didn't fit into the scenario. What's wrong with having a different opinion? We've been arguing for over 40 years, mostly with you hassling me on how badly I move with my "east coast mentality" like Chicago's got the market cornered on knowledge.

                            So now you're going to take your ball and go home.

                            You remind me of these egotistical basketball players that are on the same team and think they should be the one to always take the last shot and if not, they want to be traded.

                            Billy I. < The bad guy
                            Last edited by wincardona; 03-16-2012, 11:09 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by fred bentivegna View Post
                              and finally,
                              .... You say that you should never shoot a bank that is more difficult than the one you leave if you miss. I say bullshit, that's the 44th straight time I disagreed with you. I can name many scenarios where your axiom doesn't apply, and this happens to be one of them, imo.


                              Either you missed the first part of my axiom that stated, "If at all possible...you should never shoot a bank that is more difficult than the one you leave if you miss." Well, I gotta tell the truth, that is probably the absolute best advice I have to give regarding bank pool. That is the best I got. If that dont get it, than I am out of place on this here bank forum.
                              You call that bullshit, and apparently either everybody agrees with you or they are too intimidated to say anything. In either case, I'm wasting my time, and I am not going to waste anymore defending something as obviously correct as that axiom. I take this shit too seriously. I will leave you to lead the pack into banking stardom.

                              Beard
                              Freddie, would you please describe to me what "If at all possible" means.

                              You say your not going to waste anymore of your time defending something as obviously correct as that axiom. On the contrary, I think what we have here with this situation is a dilemma, which then your axiom shouldn't be applied to.

                              Dr. Bill

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