Chronology Of A Cheater

[Cowboy Dennis]

quote Dennis: SVB says "What, I can't hear you" (I just made that part up).

Cold blooded. That to me was the deepest dig in your whole presentation. It got a long, sick laugh out of me.

Beard

Funny as it is Freddy that is what SVB did when JM first asked him the question. He put his finger to his ear to indicate that he hadn't heard him.

P.S. I know SVB is hearing-impaired but he didn't have any problems hearing the applause when he made the 3 in the wrong pocket. That sound made him "take a shot".

Dennis

[SactownTom]

So your only agenda is to 'OUT' all the cheaters you can and let everyone know what, where and when they committed the offense.

I can understand that, but why the comments about 'nut huggers' and so defensive about other peoples opinions. Yours is the only opinion that you can share. Others in this forum have the right to share theirs also. Correct or just plain out Dumb, it is their opinion.

I'll always defend anyone's right to have an opinion, even yours. But, I don't agree about the derogatory comments you seem to spew in advance of any responses.

I get that SVB cheated, lied and IMO should have been DQ'd on the spot.

Tom,

People get quite confused by others who don't have an agenda. You are so used to being around people with agendas that you seem to think I have one. I don't. I said in the other (original) thread that I would post the photos when I received the DVD's from AccuStats. That's what I've done.

Is there something wrong in your mind with me pointing out SVB's cheating? If this hadn't been on film it would've been forgotten already or just a distant rumor. I don't like cheaters anywhere much less in a poolroom. I will point them out anytime I see them. I have written on this site about Buddy Hall and the others dumping a tournament, I've written about players dumping backers and I'll continue to write about things like this. I simply have no use for liars or cheaters.

Nobody has started a thread anywhere that I know of discussing this incident. The two threads on the All-Zaniness site that discussed it were started for other reasons.

Maybe if SVB made a formal, public apology to his fans and to John Morra I could forgive and move on but that's not going to happen. He knows that it's already been forgotten by the few people who knew about it anyway, why should he bring it up? That's why I do.

Dennis

[Cowboy Dennis]

So your only agenda is to 'OUT' all the cheaters you can and let everyone know what, where and when they committed the offense.

I can understand that, but why the comments about 'nut huggers' and so defensive about other peoples opinions. Yours is the only opinion that you can share. Others in this forum have the right to share theirs also. Correct or just plain out Dumb, it is their opinion.

I'll always defend anyone's right to have an opinion, even yours. But, I don't agree about the derogatory comments you seem to spew in advance of any responses.

I get that SVB cheated, lied and IMO should have been DQ'd on the spot.

Tom,

Did you read the original post I made when this incident first happened? I started that thread minutes after the final match ended (to my recollection). Nobody had yet made comments in defense of SVB here or on the AZ site. The comments I quoted all came from people here or on AZ in defense of SVB. I didn't go on "attack" mode or anything first, I responded to people who defended SVB's actions. There's a difference to me. There were no "nuthugger" comments by me until the nuthuggers started defending SVB.

My comments have not been "spewed in advance of any responses", my comments were made months ago in response to SVB's nuthuggers.

Let me ask you a serious question since you are interested in my motives: If you had seen this incident would you have started a thread commenting on it? Would you post pics, if available, to show what happened? If I didn't do it then tell me who would have done it. Even people who saw it didn't believe it and made excuses for SVB.

I've done it because nobody else did and probably nobody else would.

Dennis

[Scrzbill]

Tom,

People get quite confused by others who don't have an agenda. You are so used to being around people with agendas that you seem to think I have one. I don't. I said in the other (original) thread that I would post the photos when I received the DVD's from AccuStats. That's what I've done.

Is there something wrong in your mind with me pointing out SVB's cheating? If this hadn't been on film it would've been forgotten already or just a distant rumor. I don't like cheaters anywhere much less in a poolroom. I will point them out anytime I see them. I have written on this site about Buddy Hall and the others dumping a tournament, I've written about players dumping backers and I'll continue to write about things like this. I simply have no use for liars or cheaters.

Nobody has started a thread anywhere that I know of discussing this incident. The two threads on the All-Zaniness site that discussed it were started for other reasons.

Maybe if SVB made a formal, public apology to his fans and to John Morra I could forgive and move on but that's not going to happen. He knows that it's already been forgotten by the few people who knew about it anyway, why should he bring it up? That's why I do.

Dennis

There is an article in Cue Sports journal which Ken Shuman gives an entirely different perspective from your accusations of lying, cheating. What's the difference between this and not calling a foul on yourself when you foul. If you don't call fouls on yourself when there is a foul, then there is no difference making a fouled shot. If one is cheating, the other is. A foul is a foul. Calling a ball four rails, making it two rails, and either deliberately or not claiming a good shot is a loss of turn. Raking the balls is a loss of game. I know I am the only person on the site that has called one thing and shot something else. I am sure Beard has never thought one thing and called something else either. You can show all the blurbs of videos you want, but until you can read someones thoughts, its just rabid speculation and defamation to call this a "chronology of a cheater". Are you going to apologize and make a formal apology for calling him a cheat and a liar? No! Your self righteousness moralizing without any facts is disgusting. If you persist in calling SVB a cheater, liar, then you are calling Cue Sports magazine, Ken Shuman, liars and cheaters also. I am sure you will come back with more unfounded personal defamations of me, then I consider the source.

[Cowboy Dennis]

There is an article in Cue Sports journal which Ken Shuman gives an entirely different perspective from your accusations of lying, cheating. What's the difference between this and not calling a foul on yourself when you foul. If you don't call fouls on yourself when there is a foul, then there is no difference making a fouled shot. If one is cheating, the other is. A foul is a foul. Calling a ball four rails, making it two rails, and either deliberately or not claiming a good shot is a loss of turn. Raking the balls is a loss of game. I know I am the only person on the site that has called one thing and shot something else. I am sure Beard has never thought one thing and called something else either. You can show all the blurbs of videos you want, but until you can read someones thoughts, its just rabid speculation and defamation to call this a "chronology of a cheater". Are you going to apologize and make a formal apology for calling him a cheat and a liar? No! Your self righteousness moralizing without any facts is disgusting. If you persist in calling SVB a cheater, liar, then you are calling Cue Sports magazine, Ken Shuman, liars and cheaters also. I am sure you will come back with more unfounded personal defamations of me, then I consider the source.

Bill,

You are missing a major point: SVB finally admitted to Schuman & Morra that he called the ball 4 rails. Schuman called that out to the audience. It's on the DVD. That's SVB admitting being a liar right there in front of everybody.

P.S. Schuman was taken in by SVB's act also, that's why he carried the balls from SVB's tray and dumped them on the table. Schuman is an employee and if he want's to continue being one he probably won't attack SVB.

Are we running low on meds Bill?

Dennis

[SactownTom]

Tom,

Did you read the original post I made when this incident first happened? I started that thread minutes after the final match ended (to my recollection). Nobody had yet made comments in defense of SVB here or on the AZ site. The comments I quoted all came from people here or on AZ in defense of SVB. I didn't go on "attack" mode or anything first, I responded to people who defended SVB's actions. There's a difference to me. There were no "nuthugger" comments by me until the nuthuggers started defending SVB.

If it that important, I will go back and read it. I know there are tons of SVB avid supporters that do not like to hear any mud slinging about him at all.

My comments have not been "spewed in advance of any responses", my comments were made months ago in response to SVB's nuthuggers.

Let me ask you a serious question since you are interested in my motives: If you had seen this incident would you have started a thread commenting on it? Would you post pics, if available, to show what happened? If I didn't do it then tell me who would have done it. Even people who saw it didn't believe it and made excuses for SVB.

No, I would not go to the lengths you have, but I will say that you have that right and for all the reasons you stated. My problem was thinking that no one could be that single minded about this subject, I was wrong. I apologize for thinking you had additional agendas. If I read these posts and your responses correctly, you feel it is your duty as a member of the pool community to expose liars and cheaters when ever possible, especially those players that do it so obviously.



I've done it because nobody else did and probably nobody else would.

Dennis

Carry on Sir, I will no longer question your motive.

[Scrzbill]

Bill,

You are missing a major point: SVB finally admitted to Schuman & Morra that he called the ball 4 rails. Schuman called that out to the audience. It's on the DVD. That's SVB admitting being a liar right there in front of everybody.

P.S. Schuman was taken in by SVB's act also, that's why he carried the balls from SVB's tray and dumped them on the table. Schuman is an employee and if he want's to continue being one he probably won't attack SVB.

Are we running low on meds Bill?

Dennis

If you read the article in Cue Sports journal, vol XII issue 4, Ken addresses the whole deal. Having a brain fart is a lot different that cheating. How is admitting you were wrong being a liar? According to Ken, he asked Shane if he called four rails and he said he did. Shane was called out on his shot choice, his mistake, and admits he did call it four rails. Lying would be claiming he said two rails. When you in front of a big crowd like that and you have just made the biggest boner possible, your feeling a little small. I was there watching the whole thing and it was confusing in the stands. I thought Shane had won and then......A there is a pause, it may or may not be because Shane forgot what he called. I don't know and I can't read his mind. To take something completely out of context and put your own meaning on them is a reach. A good cheating example would be the one where the guy stole the ball. This is just conjecture.
What meds would that be Dennis? My chronic pain meds that allow me to have a portion of the life I used to have? I have plenty and every day I am happy to say, I have to take less. Thanks for asking though. Are you in the medical field? You're familiar with Buphrenorphine?

[Banks]

I think I'm one of the ones that went with the momentary lapse, but it does look pretty clear that he had it in his head as soon as he saw it going to the pocket. If even a friend tried pulling one on me like that for even a buck, you'd bet I'd remember it. This is where being a man/adult comes in.. when you screw up, you admit that you screwed up and apologize for it. It doesn't really sound like he did either, except for admitting he didn't call the pocket.

[Cowboy Dennis]

If you read the article in Cue Sports journal, vol XII issue 4, Ken addresses the whole deal. Having a brain fart is a lot different that cheating. How is admitting you were wrong being a liar? According to Ken, he asked Shane if he called four rails and he said he did. Shane was called out on his shot choice, his mistake, and admits he did call it four rails. Lying would be claiming he said two rails. When you in front of a big crowd like that and you have just made the biggest boner possible, your feeling a little small. I was there watching the whole thing and it was confusing in the stands. I thought Shane had won and then......A there is a pause, it may or may not be because Shane forgot what he called. I don't know and I can't read his mind. To take something completely out of context and put your own meaning on them is a reach. A good cheating example would be the one where the guy stole the ball. This is just conjecture.
What meds would that be Dennis? My chronic pain meds that allow me to have a portion of the life I used to have? I have plenty and every day I am happy to say, I have to take less. Thanks for asking though. Are you in the medical field? You're familiar with Buphrenorphine?

The meds I refer to are the ones that so distort what little logic & thought process you do have. You refuse to accept the truth. Watch the DVD.

This is an exact, word for word quote from Ken Schuman explaning his decision:

KS: "Shane called his shot 4 rails. He made the ball 2 rails so the ball shouldn't count but then he picked up the balls as if the game was over. That's loss of game. Game to John Morra."

Note the red words Bill, SVB pretended to have won the game. I don't care what Schuman says months later, this is what he said at the time to all that could hear.

He announced this to the audience, both the live audience and the livestream audience. This is not a secret Bill.

Do you think that I own the only recording of this match. Why would I distort what happened?

Why did SVB give a signal to Morra that he had played the 3 ball two-rails?

Why did SVB go get his break cue instead of spotting the wrongly-pocketed 3 ball?

Why did SVB start racking instead of spotting the wrongly-made 3 ball?

Why did SVB act like he had won the game?

Why did Morra & Schuman both bring balls to the table and place them on the table? Do you think they both made the same error at the same time?

I'll tell you why Bill, for the last time:

He heard the audience applauding loudly thinking he played the 3 ball two rails. From the time he rolled the 3 ball towards the spot to be spotted up to the time he got to the side pocket and gave a nod to Morra it was only a second or two that elapsed. The 3 was still rolling to the foot of the table when SVB decided to "fake" like he had won and to "take a shot". He didn't think he would get caught, that's why he did it.

P.S. Schuman's explanation to the audience is not completely accurate either. SVB did not touch balls on the table until Morra & Schuman put balls back on the table but they did this because SVB gave the nod to Morra indidcating that he had played the 3 ball two-rails.

I'll not comment to you any further in this thread, you refuse to believe what happened even though you haven't seen it. Watch the match Bill.

Dennis

[John Brumback]

I think I'm one of the ones that went with the momentary lapse, but it does look pretty clear that he had it in his head as soon as he saw it going to the pocket. If even a friend tried pulling one on me like that for even a buck, you'd bet I'd remember it. This is where being a man/adult comes in.. when you screw up, you admit that you screwed up and apologize for it. It doesn't really sound like he did either, except for admitting he didn't call the pocket.

He did admitt that he called it,it's just that it was the wrong pocket he called and he tried to take credit for it going into the wrong pocket.( I know I don't have to tell you all this)To me,that makes it pretty clear what his intentions were.Everyone can have their opinon.I know I have mine,now.John B.
PS: bet he puts his pants on just like the rest of us.

[Banks]

PS: bet he puts his pants on just like the rest of us.

You mean with the girlfriend/wife saying he could stand to lose a few pounds?

[tylerdurden]

I like Dennis' posts, but I don't agree on this (I guess I am one of the idiots ).

I think if we see a pattern there is something to talk about. I put my cue through a trashcan once. I am the mellowest player alive now, I don't say or do anything - ever. Not to talk about me, but I just don't think one incident should drag anybody down. Patterns should. I mean, he did try to cheat, i'm not trying to absolve him, just saying its possible/probable that it's not a pattern. Would I keep a closer eye on him as John stated, yeah. But lets let his actions speak now. Anybody who plays as much pool as he does will have many nefarious situations/calls pop up if they are in fact truly devious.

[Cowboy Dennis]

I like Dennis' posts, but I don't agree on this (I guess I am one of the idiots ).

I think if we see a pattern there is something to talk about. I put my cue through a trashcan once. I am the mellowest player alive now, I don't say or do anything - ever. Not to talk about me, but I just don't think one incident should drag anybody down. Patterns should. I mean, he did try to cheat, i'm not trying to absolve him, just saying its possible/probable that it's not a pattern. Would I keep a closer eye on him as John stated, yeah. But lets let his actions speak now. Anybody who plays as much pool as he does will have many nefarious situations/calls pop up if they are in fact truly devious.

TD,

I don't think you are an idiot, I always make certain to read your posts. I agree with your supposition about noticing the pattern of behavior so let me make a statement and then ask you a question.

On the AccuStats site there are 9 matches available for the 2012 DCC BankPool division. That means, at most, 18 players on video playing BankPool. SVB is on two of the matches, both times playing John Morra in the 1st & 2nd finals. Morra also plays another match leaving the number at 13 players other than JM & SVB that can be purchased at AccuStats for the BankPool. A contrary, unfair person could take this to mean that SVB cheated 50% of the time since he cheated in one of the matches with Morra that was on video.

My point is that we don't get to see every player play every match, only the T.V. table matches make it to DVD or are shown live (to my knowledge). The odds that you would see a player cheat are probably very low. First, they would have to be on the T.V. table. Second, they would have to cheat. Third, you would have to be watching at the time or have bought the DVD and seen it. Fourth, you would have to notice that a player was cheating at all. I quite often watch these DVD's while I'm watching T.V. and I don't always pay close attention to the proceedings until they get interesting to me.

So to my question: How many unscrupulous incidents by SVB would be required by you to say it's more than "not a pattern"?


Dennis

[tylerdurden]

So to my question: How many unscrupulous incidents by SVB would be required by you to say it's more than "not a pattern"?


Dennis

It would be pretty easy for me to be convinced, which is my point (I think ). Hear word of mouth either on here or in person from another player (who I trust) or two who had similar experiences. Or even a fan or two.

When you can surmise in your own head that it's not just people trying to bring him down, and not just a single brain fart he had (i'll def give him the benefit of the doubt once) then there is a pattern there. And obviously, as much pool as he plays, you'd hear about more and more of this stuff over the years. So the pattern would really solidify. I'm just not ready to put him in dirtbag category yet But my mind could change quickly. Why, do you have another case of him pulling something?

[John Brumback]

I like Dennis' posts, but I don't agree on this (I guess I am one of the idiots ).

I think if we see a pattern there is something to talk about. I put my cue through a trashcan once. I am the mellowest player alive now, I don't say or do anything - ever. Not to talk about me, but I just don't think one incident should drag anybody down. Patterns should. I mean, he did try to cheat, i'm not trying to absolve him, just saying its possible/probable that it's not a pattern. Would I keep a closer eye on him as John stated, yeah. But lets let his actions speak now. Anybody who plays as much pool as he does will have many nefarious situations/calls pop up if they are in fact truly devious.

Hey,Is there a rule that says you can't put your cue through a trashcan.I try to keep up with these things ya know I just couldn't help myself And no, you are not an idiot.You seem to make alot of sense.

Just think though If John M. didn't catch it and svb he went ahead and won the tourny and then It came out on dvd I don't know if anyone could do anything after the fact or not.It's really very hard for me just to look the other way on this.I'm like Dennis,I don't care who or what he is.He shouldn't have tried to pull that move.Brain farts and stuff like that just don't cut it either in this situation,imo.Take care and good luck. John B.