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Chronology Of A Cheater

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  • #46
    I began frequenting this site only a few months ago and had not seen this episode between SVB and Morra. I had heard something about SVB having cheated but I was lacking any of the particulars so I didn't give it very much thought. I could have looked deeper into it to discover what actually happened but I didn't do that either. Now through Dennis' thread and the subsequent postings I've seen what others have seen and I want to thank Dennis for sharing this with us all. It needed airing.

    I would not at this point label SVB "once a cheater always a cheater" but he did cheat and it needs to be recognized as such. For that I do not understand why he wasn't expelled from the tournament then and there. A loss of game is not enough IMO for an infraction of this kind. Harsh? What if Morra had not questioned SVB and lost the match as a result? What would have been the residual results of a SVB championship win in this event only to have it later known what occurred? What then would the message be to others from the actions of SVB? Is it OK if you can get away with it?

    Has SVB made any public apologies for this incident? I would hope so but he also needs to do penance for the crime. Part of that penance is humiliation in having the incidence publicly displayed as Dennis has done here. I say good job Dennis. People can condemn or pardon him as they see fit but the facts should be known to all who involve themselves in this game.

    Were I a TD I would look at this as a first offense and put him on probation for a period of time, but there would be no question but that I would be inclined consult with tournament officials to discuss possible immediate disqualification from the event. Maybe something less punitive could be imposed.

    I give him credit for the fact that he eventually owned up to what he did but that does not mitigate the fact that he did it. Cheating is cheating but cheating of this magnitude can never be tolerated by a TD and must be dealt with harshly.

    Bill, Forgiveness is always possible for those who sincerely endeavor to mend their ways. Self-inflicted punishment is good for the soul but insufficient to satisfy the integrity of a sport. I hope SVB has learned from his mistake and he becomes a positive role model for the game of pool. His exceptional skill with a cue stick requires exceptional responsibilities to the public. It's just the way it is.

    Tom

    "Controlled Aggression" trwirth369@gmail.com

    Comment


    • #47
      I'm not going to rehash this incident any more than this. I would like to ask a question of the guys who say "I never heard of him cheating before this" as if you would talk about the wrongs committed by a poolplayer anyway.

      "Once a cheater always a cheater" is not an unfair label but I'll not argue that either.

      My questions are these:

      1. Do you really think he's never cheated anyone on a pooltable just because you've never heard of it?

      2. Do you really think that a guy who would cheat with cameras rolling has never cheated when they weren't rolling?

      3. Do you really think that he waited his whole life just to make this his first cheating incident? With cameras rolling? With a live PPV audience? With a TD watching? Knowing it would be on a DVD forever?

      You guys reach & stretch for any excuse to make a poolplayer look less bad than he made himself. You cannot mitigate his actions in this incident. When you see someone over the age of 10 cheating in a poolgame you can be certain they've done it before and are comfortable with it because of repetition.

      There are still people who don't believe he cheated at all even though it's on DVD. They make excuses for him and I'm blamed for bringing it up.

      To my knowledge SVB has not apologized to anyone for this incident. If he would come on here and apologize and truthfully answer questions I would never mention it again.

      Dennis

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Cowboy Dennis View Post
        I'm not going to rehash this incident any more than this. I would like to ask a question of the guys who say "I never heard of him cheating before this" as if you would talk about the wrongs committed by a poolplayer anyway.

        "Once a cheater always a cheater" is not an unfair label but I'll not argue that either.

        My questions are these:

        1. Do you really think he's never cheated anyone on a pooltable just because you've never heard of it? ( Maybe he has but I never heard of it)

        2. Do you really think that a guy who would cheat with cameras rolling has never cheated when they weren't rolling? ( That would be my inclination as well, however your question is what's referred to as 'a loaded question')

        3. Do you really think that he waited his whole life just to make this his first cheating incident? With cameras rolling? With a live PPV audience? With a TD watching? Knowing it would be on a DVD forever? ( I really don't think he was thinking about those things, this to me was more of a mistake on his part as opposed to some blatant 'character flaw')

        You guys reach & stretch for any excuse to make a poolplayer look less bad than he made himself. You cannot mitigate his actions in this incident. When you see someone over the age of 10 cheating in a poolgame you can be certain they've done it before and are comfortable with it because of repetition. ( You're probably right on every thing except the 'comfortable with it ' part.)

        There are still people who don't believe he cheated at all even though it's on DVD. They make excuses for him and I'm blamed for bringing it up.

        To my knowledge SVB has not apologized to anyone for this incident. If he would come on here and apologize and truthfully answer questions I would never mention it again.

        Dennis
        You're pretty much correct when you say that I try to defend pool players and 'right the wrongs' they commit. However, I really don't try to 'right the wrongs' of pool players mistakes, but what i'm guilty of is ...mitigating the offense to a degree where it looks less offensive. I will do this when there are supporting factors that support my view on a situation that could be perceived in different ways. I'm a pool player and grew up in that environment, and 'trust me' it's not an easy life. Yes, pool players are a family, just like .golfers..basket ball players...doctors...and lawyers are, and we as family members, as well as family members of all other families have an unwritten code to not berate, or disrespect other members...unless it such a disgusting offense that suggest otherwise. When I look at this incident with Shane I honestly feel that he made a mistake and shouldn't be labeled as 'a cheater and a lyer' Shane lives in a 'glass house' and every move he makes will be scrutinized, his successes will be recognized and his mistakes will be pronounced and more 'eye catching' then others. If we were all scrutinized as aggressively as celebrities are can you imagine how many 'cheats and lyers' there would be?

        Dr. Bill

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by wincardona View Post
          You're pretty much correct when you say that I try to defend pool players and 'right the wrongs' they commit. However, I really don't try to 'right the wrongs' of pool players mistakes, but what i'm guilty of is ...mitigating the offense to a degree where it looks less offensive. I will do this when there are supporting factors that support my view on a situation that could be perceived in different ways. I'm a pool player and grew up in that environment, and 'trust me' it's not an easy life. Yes, pool players are a family, just like .golfers..basket ball players...doctors...and lawyers are, and we as family members, as well as family members of all other families have an unwritten code to not berate, or disrespect other members...unless it such a disgusting offense that suggest otherwise. When I look at this incident with Shane I honestly feel that he made a mistake and shouldn't be labeled as 'a cheater and a lyer' Shane lives in a 'glass house' and every move he makes will be scrutinized, his successes will be recognized and his mistakes will be pronounced and more 'eye catching' then others. If we were all scrutinized as aggressively as celebrities are can you imagine how many 'cheats and lyers' there would be?

          Dr. Bill

          Billy; ALL this kid is guilty of, is being EXREMELY STUPID and an IDIOT! NO ONE that was thinking correctly would do such a thing for, "chump change" and ruin a perfectly good reputation, this IMHO on the subject!

          Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by mr3cushion View Post
            Billy; ALL this kid is guilty of, is being EXREMELY STUPID and an IDIOT! NO ONE that was thinking correctly would do such a thing for, "chump change" and ruin a perfectly good reputation, this IMHO on the subject!

            Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
            Honesty...Valuable

            Integrity...Very valuable

            Reputation...Very, very valuable

            Giving yourself up in your own post and not seeming to know it...Priceless.

            Dennis

            Comment


            • #51
              Another genius from Hamtramck, doing what you do best, nothing important!

              Anytime YOU want some of that one n one, just let me know, "shop rat!"

              You just don't how to keep a lid on it!

              Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
              Last edited by mr3cushion; 06-30-2013, 12:14 AM.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by wincardona View Post
                I'm late as usual, however, after reading this thread I can honestly say that everyone is right in what they say. There's no question that he cheated, he openly admitted that. (which should count for something) From that perspective alone he should be punished in some way. I agree with Tyler It's not fair to judge anyone on one incident and then label them for life. I believe that's what Cowboy is doing, relentlessly I may add. Since that incident SVB seems to be behaving quite well. ( that should count for something) And also, I never heard of him being accused of cheating or lying before this incident. (that should count for something) Well there's no guessing here what I believe but I would like to add one more thing before I end my post. When SVB admitted that he was cheating he realized that he was going to lose credibility with a lot of people, in spite of that he sacrificed his reputation when he admitted to it. The punishment he got for cheating was a self inflicted one, he sacrificed his reputation ...in hopes of forgiveness. That to me is possible....And my perspective.

                By the way, Cowboy would of made a great 'lawyer'.. or even possibly a great 'detective' and I mean that in a complimentary way.

                Dr. Bill

                Bill Incardona

                remember about 5 years ago Busty made a 2-9 combo and the crowd went nuts in Japan or somewhere(wasnt a american event), before he realized he shit the 9 in??? then he played along with it and got the rack? It was a close hit the 9 rolled under him and he didnt see it. He didn't catch a beef for it, if he did it didnt stick

                IMO one of the problems in pool, is it labels people forever, pool dont forget. I could go broke, but Fatboy will always be rich. And thats not right, What SVB did was bad, I wasnt in his shoes that day, perhaps he was pissed off cause he went off at craps and wanted the win or NEEDED the win real bad-so bad he pulled a move. What i do know is as long as someone is square with me i'm ok with them.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Svb

                  I do agree it was bad judgement on his part. It appears he was initially going to spot the ball, but the Crowd, JM and the TD all seemed to think he made a good shot, and he didn't go to rack the balls and take the win until JM and the TD grabbed the balls for him?

                  Countless times I've seen local players either make a bad hit, not get a rail, or some other form of a foul and immediately look at the opponent (who wasn't watching) then go sit down without saying anything like it was a good hit.

                  People make poor decisions and make mistakes, if this is the only incident that SVB's had against him, then I wouldn't ruin his reputation and career over it. If he tried to pull the same thing later, then I'd lose respect for him.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by WhatWouldWojoDo View Post
                    I do agree it was bad judgement on his part. It appears he was initially going to spot the ball, but the Crowd, JM and the TD all seemed to think he made a good shot, and he didn't go to rack the balls and take the win until JM and the TD grabbed the balls for him?

                    Countless times I've seen local players either make a bad hit, not get a rail, or some other form of a foul and immediately look at the opponent (who wasn't watching) then go sit down without saying anything like it was a good hit.

                    People make poor decisions and make mistakes, if this is the only incident that SVB's had against him, then I wouldn't ruin his reputation and career over it. If he tried to pull the same thing later, then I'd lose respect for him.
                    I agree with what you said about svb, I don't agree with anything you said in that middle paragraph though. On that thought, it reminds me of this discussion I got into the other night. A guy did not get his deposit for a room back in full because if some water damage. The guy called the landlord when the water was coming in initially. The landlord did not follow up. The landlord then had the nerve to take the damages out of this guys deposit months later. I just don't think we are responsible in the slightest for other people's problems - if that analogy comparing pool to renting a place made any sense I have no idea. It did to me.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Well there's not a big difference between kissing the head of it and putting it all in your mouth.
                      Rod
                      P.S. Unless you're an Icon.
                      Rod.

                      Rodney Stephens.
                      (e-mail) rod.stephens0105@att.net(e-mail) #713-973-0503 is now working

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Now here is a cheater.
                        Attached Files

                        "Controlled Aggression" trwirth369@gmail.com

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by WhatWouldWojoDo View Post
                          I do agree it was bad judgement on his part. It appears he was initially going to spot the ball, but the Crowd, JM and the TD all seemed to think he made a good shot, and he didn't go to rack the balls and take the win until JM and the TD grabbed the balls for him?

                          Countless times I've seen local players either make a bad hit, not get a rail, or some other form of a foul and immediately look at the opponent (who wasn't watching) then go sit down without saying anything like it was a good hit.

                          People make poor decisions and make mistakes, if this is the only incident that SVB's had against him, then I wouldn't ruin his reputation and career over it. If he tried to pull the same thing later, then I'd lose respect for him.
                          I agree. I don't think anyone should get a life sentence for this.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Cheating

                            Originally posted by tylerdurden View Post
                            I agree with what you said about svb, I don't agree with anything you said in that middle paragraph though. On that thought, it reminds me of this discussion I got into the other night. A guy did not get his deposit for a room back in full because if some water damage. The guy called the landlord when the water was coming in initially. The landlord did not follow up. The landlord then had the nerve to take the damages out of this guys deposit months later. I just don't think we are responsible in the slightest for other people's problems - if that analogy comparing pool to renting a place made any sense I have no idea. It did to me.
                            I just have seen people try to get a slight advantage through cheating. I personally think pool is like golf in the way that you can and should call fouls on yourself.

                            I have the reputation at pool league, where pretty much every other captain we play against is fine with me calling hit-calls on my own players. They all know that I will not hesitate to call a foul on myself or my own players. It is about what is right.

                            I know some players that will intentionally try to shark you while your playing, even when not playing for money!!! I don't understand this. If you can't beat a player straight up, why resort to sharking/cheating?

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by WhatWouldWojoDo View Post
                              I just have seen people try to get a slight advantage through cheating. I personally think pool is like golf in the way that you can and should call fouls on yourself.This only shows you don't know anything about golf or pool. When a golfer calls a foul on himself only HE can be hurt by it.

                              I have the reputation at pool league, where pretty much every other captain we play against is fine with me calling hit-calls on my own players. They all know that I will not hesitate to call a foul on myself or my own players. It is about what is right. It is about what the rules call for and playing within them. That's what the rules are there for.

                              I know some players that will intentionally try to shark you while your playing, even when not playing for money!!! I don't understand this. If you can't beat a player straight up, why resort to sharking/cheating?
                              You really need to get out more.

                              Dennis

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                in my experience, damn few of us live up to our own standards. Even fewer live up to the standards imposed by others.

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