Lee Van Corteza vs. Alex Pagulayan 2012 D.C.C.

[fred bentivegna]

Fred, what ever method you use to figure out how the balls are laying is not my argument, i'll give you that.:focus My opinion on this bank is not how one figures the position, but the angle the position offers the shot. The angle that the balls are laying in is not conducive to a hit and stick shot. Now based off of what I say, providing i'm correct my question to you is..would you still choose this option if you had to cut the ball? If so that's where we have our disagreement with this shot.

Dr. Bill

I pretty much answered this in the previous post I wrote. 339. No, I now wouldnt shoot it as a Z banger, because it is laying to run short, I would do something else, probably the 4 ball 3 in the side.
Following my own precepts I would move the 4 ball from its prestigious position no matter what.

Beard

 

[wincardona]

That is one of the worst options. Behind 4 zip and from where he left the qball I would knock off the hanging 3 ball. Two railing the qball back to the head rail, hoping I dont knock off the hanging 9 ball and leave a cross corner on the 8. But, probably leaving a very difficult cross side on the 8 ball which I hope he shoots at. ( Am I missing something here? If you pocket the 3 ball and send the cue ball down table toward the 9 ball, aren't you going to leave the cross side on the 3 ball that you'll have to spot?) If he does and misses, he will leave the qball near the head rail. (He certainly wouldnt hit it hard and put me among the other 3 balls needing only 1.) If he misses, he gives me the opportunity I was working to get to. I now can knock off the only other ball out of play, the 9, leaving very little. I also have a big chance to corner hook him off of the hanging 9. Thats what I was shooting for. No matter what else happens, I would now be back in the game.

Beard

This is a good example of how vulnerable a big lead can be in bank pool. The original position looks to be impossible to win from. 2 balls hanging and 2 pretty much out of play, and in two shots every ball is back in play, he is hanging in the back corner at the minimum, and with a possible corner hook going for you.

I believe that your road to getting back in the game has been aborted because of failing to think it through correctly.

Dr. Bill

 

[wincardona]

I pretty much answered this in the previous post I wrote. 339. No, I now wouldnt shoot it as a Z banger, because it is laying to run short, I would do something else, probably the 4 ball 3 in the side.
Following my own precepts I would move the 4 ball from its prestigious position no matter what.

Beard

Allow me to rebut your strategy with my thoughts and explain my reasons.

Your second option with moving the 4 ball imo is incorrect, allow me to explain. First, the angle for your three in the side with the 4 ball will place the degree of difficulty with following down table with the cue ball, on a scale from 1 to 10, (with 10 being the most difficult) about a 9-1/2 So that shot would be not one of my options.

Then you say that you would move the 4 ball "no matter what" Well I happen to think that the position of the 4 ball favors the player with the lead, allow me to explain. The position of the 4 ball will make it very difficult for Alex to pocket the 3 ball, a ball that surely you won't want to pocket. So actually the position of the 4 ball is advantageous for the player with the 4 to 0 lead. Furthermore the 4 ball can only be banked in two pockets, cross side, or long cross corner. Not exactly a ball that is positioned conveniently for running balls.

If you somehow would agree that the 4 ball at this time is not an option because of the reasons I explained then you have to look at either the 7 or 8 balls, as possible options, correct?

Lets first look at the 8 ball and play my choice (rolling the 8 ball under the 7 ball.) If hit reasonably well the 8 ball will block any two in the side options for both the 7 and 8 balls. And if that's true then Alex will be forced to play conservatively by rolling softly on the 7 ball or shoot your 4 ball from the position it's in now.

Lets now look at the 7 ball as an option. I like the choice that LVC shot with the 7 ball, because he has the skills to execute it. Plus he's not giving up a shot if the ball is missed.

So when I took a fair look at the situation, I decided that the safety on rolling the 8 ball under the 7 ball was the right shot for me. It got a lot done with no risk, plus I have my opponent playing the way I want him to play..conservatively.

Dr. Bill

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Here's the position of the cueball & object ball as I see it. It's still a great two-railer angle, especially on the newer tournament cloth. That ball will flip over off the 2nd rail just the way you want it to..

P.S. I didn't "fudge" anything to put this layout in my favor, this is simply where I see the balls to be.

The point of this shot is that you are taking a great chance at winning with almost no negatives if you miss.

 

[wincardona]

Here's the position of the cueball & object ball as I see it. It's still a great two-railer angle, especially on the newer tournament cloth. That ball will flip over off the 2nd rail just the way you want it to..

P.S. I didn't "fudge" anything to put this layout in my favor, this is simply where I see the balls to be.

The point of this shot is that you are taking a great chance at winning with almost no negatives if you miss.

View attachment 6405

View attachment 6406

If you call almost no negatives a possible return on either the 4-7-or 8 balls, what would you call a risky shot?
Almost no negatives is rolling softly into the 8 ball and positioning it safely behind the 7 ball.:sorry

I'm really not trying to be the contrarian here, but come on 'almost no negatives' You can possibly lose three balls with this choice.

You also say you're taking a great chance of winning can you explain great in your context? Your chances of losing a ball as opposed to pocketing the bank is greater imo. Now if you would of said that you're taking a free chance of winning, or a relatively free chance of winning you would of gotten more of my attention.

The Z- bank is not shoot and stick, and for that matter in itself should stop you from choosing the option. Plain and simple, it's a bad gamble, especially when you consider the score. It would be a tight fit if the angle allowed you to shoot and stick, unless you're in a good game and you have time for every thing.

By the way I agree that you didn't "fudge" in showing the lay out, and to me it's not in your favor.

Dr. Bill

 

[fred bentivegna]

Quote:
Originally Posted by fred bentivegna
That is one of the worst options. Behind 4 zip and from where he left the qball I would knock off the hanging 3 ball. Two railing the qball back to the head rail, hoping I dont knock off the hanging 9 ball and leave a cross corner on the 8. But, probably leaving a very difficult cross side on the 8 ball which I hope he shoots at. ( Am I missing something here? If you pocket the 3 ball and send the cue ball down table toward the 9 ball, aren't you going to leave the cross side on the 3 ball that you'll have to spot?).......
What the hell are you talking about? The 3 ball is hanging in the pocket by the FOOT rail. When it gets spotted up my cue ball is going to be down table by the HEAD rail, 6 or 7 feet away.

Beard

This is a good example of how vulnerable a big lead can be in bank pool. The original position looks to be impossible to win from. 2 balls hanging and 2 pretty much out of play, and in two shots every ball is back in play, he is hanging in the back corner at the minimum, and with a possible corner hook going for you.
(I believe that your road to getting back in the game has been aborted because of failing to think it through correctly.) Say what?


Dr. Bill[/quote]

 

[wincardona]

Quote:
Originally Posted by fred bentivegna
That is one of the worst options. Behind 4 zip and from where he left the qball I would knock off the hanging 3 ball. Two railing the qball back to the head rail, hoping I dont knock off the hanging 9 ball and leave a cross corner on the 8. But, probably leaving a very difficult cross side on the 8 ball which I hope he shoots at. ( Am I missing something here? If you pocket the 3 ball and send the cue ball down table toward the 9 ball, aren't you going to leave the cross side on the 3 ball that you'll have to spot?).......
What the hell are you talking about? The 3 ball is hanging in the pocket by the FOOT rail. When it gets spotted up my cue ball is going to be down table by the HEAD rail, 6 or 7 feet away.

Beard

This is a good example of how vulnerable a big lead can be in bank pool. The original position looks to be impossible to win from. 2 balls hanging and 2 pretty much out of play, and in two shots every ball is back in play, he is hanging in the back corner at the minimum, and with a possible corner hook going for you.
(I believe that your road to getting back in the game has been aborted because of failing to think it through correctly.) Say what?


Dr. Bill

[/QUOTE]

My bad, I have the foot and head ends of the table reversed. I thought the 9 ball was hanging at the foot end of the table.

My mistake doesn't change my mind about playing off the 8 ball, but now the shot that LVC shot isn't as good of an option as I thought.

Incidentally, after you pocket the 3 ball and go down table toward the 9 ball, had you positioned the 8 ball under the 7 ball (my option) you wouldn't have to worry about making the 9 ball.:frus:lol

Dr. Bill

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

I'm really not trying to be the contrarian here, but come on 'almost no negatives' You can possibly lose three balls with this choice.


Dr. Bill

Bill,

There isn't any bankpool player that's going to make 3 straight-backs in a row from this position if I leave a straight-back on the 4 if I miss, so you may as well forget that idea right now.

You can't always get a free shot playing banks, sometimes you have to leave a shot if you miss. Sooner or later you must shoot at something. I'm 2-railing the 4. How hard is it to see? You can win with this shot but not lose, it's that simple.

This is my last reply in this thread.

Dennis

 

[fred bentivegna]

My bad, I have the foot and head ends of the table reversed. I thought the 9 ball was hanging at the foot end of the table.

My mistake doesn't change my mind about playing off the 8 ball, That doesnt change my mind about that shot (8 ball roll safety) still being a stiff either. Your rationale that it can only be banked easily in one pocket (the side) is misguided. The important factor is just how easy a shot it is once you are able to get to it! And how easy it would be to play position on other shots once you do get to it! And it is easily gotten to since it is on about the 50 yd line (almost in the middle of the table). It could be reached easily position wise, after you make a bank on either side of the table. Concluding, you have totally ignored my sage advice about the necessity to do something with the Most Dangerous Ball, the 4 ball. ....but now the shot that LVC shot isn't as good of an option as I thought.

Incidentally, after you pocket the 3 ball and go down table toward the 9 ball, had you positioned the 8 ball under the 7 ball (my option) you wouldn't have to worry about making the 9 ball.:frus:lol

Dr. Bill[/QUOTE]

Now who is the one that is getting a little senile? Apparently you have both players wanting to play the same shots?????
The player that you wanted to tie the 7 and 8 up with was the guy that had the 4 zip lead. The guy that I want to pocket the 3 and go back down table is the guy that is BEHIND 4 zip. (Tying up the 7 and 8 makes it very easy incidentally, for the behind player to knock off the 9 ball, put it back in play and suffer little consequences) That is another key point as to why the player with the 4 zip lead would not want to tie up the 7 and 8.

Beard

One other factor that I just realized as to why the 4 ball is so dangerous, and that is the amount of table space that will be unavailable to you when you are trying not to leave the 4 ball cross side on a future safety. A good 3/4's of the foot end of the table would allow a cross side make of the 4 ball.

 

[fred bentivegna]

Bill,

There isn't any bankpool player that's going to make 3 straight-backs in a row from this position if I leave a straight-back on the 4 if I miss, so you may as well forget that idea right now.

You can't always get a free shot playing banks, sometimes you have to leave a shot if you miss. Sooner or later you must shoot at something. I'm 2-railing the 4. How hard is it to see? You can win with this shot but not lose, it's that simple. That reminds me of an ongoing argument I often have with my ex-wife and other slate-headed individuals. She says, "Evidence? Is that all you have to support your argument, evidence!? That's it?"

This is my last reply in this thread.

Dennis

Please dont leave us.

Beard

 

[wincardona]

Bill,

There isn't any bankpool player that's going to make 3 straight-backs in a row from this position if I leave a straight-back on the 4 if I miss, so you may as well forget that idea right now.

You can't always get a free shot playing banks, sometimes you have to leave a shot if you miss. Sooner or later you must shoot at something. I'm 2-railing the 4. How hard is it to see? You can win with this shot but not lose, it's that simple.

This is my last reply in this thread.

Dennis

Since you're not going to post in the thread anymore I can say what I feel without running the risk of a Cowboy attack.

Your statement leads me to believe you haven't played champions that much, they have a way of punishing those who take them lightly. As far as being able to win shooting a shot without the fear of losing is not a good enough reason to shoot a shot, there's much more that's involved when choosing an option. But you do have a point, it just shouldn't apply to all situations.

Dr. Bill

 

[wincardona]

My bad, I have the foot and head ends of the table reversed. I thought the 9 ball was hanging at the foot end of the table.

My mistake doesn't change my mind about playing off the 8 ball, That doesnt change my mind about that shot (8 ball roll safety) still being a stiff either. Your rationale that it can only be banked easily in one pocket (the side) is misguided. The important factor is just how easy a shot it is once you are able to get to it! And how easy it would be to play position on other shots once you do get to it! And it is easily gotten to since it is on about the 50 yd line (almost in the middle of the table). It could be reached easily position wise, after you make a bank on either side of the table. Concluding, you have totally ignored my sage advice about the necessity to do something with the Most Dangerous Ball, the 4 ball. ....but now the shot that LVC shot isn't as good of an option as I thought.

Incidentally, after you pocket the 3 ball and go down table toward the 9 ball, had you positioned the 8 ball under the 7 ball (my option) you wouldn't have to worry about making the 9 ball.:frus:lol

Dr. Bill

Now who is the one that is getting a little senile? Apparently you have both players wanting to play the same shots?????
The player that you wanted to tie the 7 and 8 up with was the guy that had the 4 zip lead. ( that's right "meatball breath" the player with the lead should look to tie balls up, especially when he's confronted with a situation that allows him to do it for free) whe guy that I want to pocket the 3 and go back down table is the guy that is BEHIND 4 zip. (Tying up the 7 and 8 makes it very easy incidentally, for the behind player to knock off the 9 ball, put it back in play and suffer little consequences) That is another key point as to why the player with the 4 zip lead would not want to tie up the 7 and 8. ( you actually used my reasoning about why I felt is was wrong for you to Z-bank the 4 ball because then you make it easy for the player that's behind to be able to pocket the 3 ball. Now I know you're paying attention to what i'm saying and how I think. But imo it's more than a fair trade off for LVC he can afford to make it easier for the 9 ball to be pocketed because the position now becomes easier to defend for the player with the lead.)


Beard

One other factor that I just realized as to why the 4 ball is so dangerous, and that is the amount of table space that will be unavailable to you when you are trying not to leave the 4 ball cross side on a future safety. A good 3/4's of the foot end of the table would allow a cross side make of the 4 ball.[/QUOTE] ( Doesn't that apply to both players? And I would assume that the player that it would affect the most would be the player that's behind. Another reason not to move the 4 ball.)


When I come to Chicago, and after I give the Ghost his lesson i'll be more than glad to stop over the house for some "meatballs" and give you a little lesson for your hospitality.

Dr. Bill

 

[wincardona]

Now who is the one that is getting a little senile? Apparently you have both players wanting to play the same shots?????
The player that you wanted to tie the 7 and 8 up with was the guy that had the 4 zip lead. ( that's right "meatball breath" the player with the lead should look to tie balls up, especially when he's confronted with a situation that allows him to do it for free) whe guy that I want to pocket the 3 and go back down table is the guy that is BEHIND 4 zip. (Tying up the 7 and 8 makes it very easy incidentally, for the behind player to knock off the 9 ball, put it back in play and suffer little consequences) That is another key point as to why the player with the 4 zip lead would not want to tie up the 7 and 8. ( you actually used my reasoning about why I felt is was wrong for you to Z-bank the 4 ball because then you make it easy for the player that's behind to be able to pocket the 3 ball. Now I know you're paying attention to what i'm saying and how I think. But imo it's more than a fair trade off for LVC he can afford to make it easier for the 9 ball to be pocketed because the position now becomes easier to defend for the player with the lead.)


Beard

One other factor that I just realized as to why the 4 ball is so dangerous, and that is the amount of table space that will be unavailable to you when you are trying not to leave the 4 ball cross side on a future safety. A good 3/4's of the foot end of the table would allow a cross side make of the 4 ball.

( Doesn't that apply to both players? And I would assume that the player that it would affect the most would be the player that's behind. Another reason not to move the 4 ball.)


When I come to Chicago, and after I give the Ghost his lesson i'll be more than glad to stop over the house for some "meatballs" and give you a little lesson for your hospitality.

Dr. Bill[/QUOTE]

Another very note worthy point that I would like to share with our viewers is..If the 4 ball is a ball that the player with the lead should want to move, and may have a problem moving it for what ever reason. He should without hesitation look to do something simple and effective (like rolling the 8 ball under the 7 ball) especially if it's free to do. After this option is executed he will have bought some time to deal with the 4 ball later on in a more appealing situation. Plus he has tied up balls that were positioned in a potentially threatening position. Any one that can rebut this logic is hard to bet on.:frus

Dr. Bill

 

[fred bentivegna]

Since I have as much chance penetrating that slate skull as a BB against a bulletproof vest, I have a new idea.

I would love to put two good bankers together who play even, and then have Billy and I coach each of them. How does that sound? The Vegas line would make my player at least a 2 1/2 to 1 fav.
That would eliminate all this conjecture.

Beard

The old, smart Billy would have probably staked me against himself.
However,I would probably have to switch backers. I might go with Fatboy or Harry Platis.

 

[wincardona]

Since I have as much chance penetrating that slate skull as a BB against a bulletproof vest, I have a new idea.

I would love to put two good bankers together who play even, and then have Billy and I coach each of them. How does that sound? The Vegas line would make my player at least a 2 1/2 to 1 fav.
That would eliminate all this conjecture.

Beard

The old, smart Billy would have probably staked me against himself.
However,I would probably have to switch backers. I might go with Fatboy or Harry Platis.

Since I believe that my ideas are better than your ideas why don't we get one impartial player, instead of two different players and we can both coach the same player shooting shots for us. That way after there's a winner, the loser can't say "so what, you had the best player" We can not only do that playing bank pool but one pocket as well. Then win or lose we can both sit down and enjoy some home made spaghetti cooked by you. At least i'll enjoy it.:lol

Dr. Bill

 

[wincardona]

Since we're both going to be in Tunica why don't we do it there? I'll offer a player $200 to play a race to three against himself with both you and I coaching every other shot. Maybe Richie Richeson.(banks or one pocket)
Then i'll offer another player $200 to do the same thing playing the other game. Will say that Richie plays the banks, then the next chosen player will play the one pocket, maybe Danny Smith.

Or we can do it your way and we'll pick two players and stake them for $300 in a race to 3 playing both banks and one pocket, hows that? You should like that since the VEGAS line will have you at over a 2/1 favorite.:lol:lol

Patiently waiting for your reply.

Your favorite doctor.

Dr. Bill

 

[fred bentivegna]

Since I believe that my ideas are better than your ideas why don't we get one impartial player, instead of two different players and we can both coach the same player shooting shots for us. That way after there's a winner, the loser can't say "so what, you had the best player" We can not only do that playing bank pool but one pocket as well. Then win or lose we can both sit down and enjoy some home made spaghetti cooked by you. At least i'll enjoy it.:lol

Dr. Bill

No one pocket. I am stealing in the banks. I only have a small edge in one pocket.

Beard

 

[wincardona]

No one pocket. I am stealing in the banks. I only have a small edge in one pocket.

Beard

Have you ever been into the depths of the deepest forest? In case you have and you've forgotten the way i'll be more than glad to show you how to go there.

Dr. Bill