Science Schmience: CB Follow/Draw for Banks

[petie]

Where did I do that?

pj
chgo

I'm not going to look it up but I think it was on the One Pocket Forum before the thread was moved to this forum.

 

[petie]

In a recent thread on AzB, folks (at least one of them a world class banker) are saying that draw on the CB makes banks go longer by transferring follow to the OB. I'm skeptical (go figure).

I think this is only true when the OB is on or very close to the rail or hit very hard.

However, I'm not a great banker, so I thought I'd check my skepticism with you 1P players who are, of necessity, good (and versatile) bankers. Whadya think?

pj
chgo

I found it, pj. It wasn't as hard as I thought.

 

[petie]

In a recent thread on AzB, folks (at least one of them a world class banker) are saying that draw on the CB makes banks go longer by transferring follow to the OB. I'm skeptical (go figure).

I think this is only true when the OB is on or very close to the rail or hit very hard. Because otherwise the OB very quickly picks up more follow from cloth friction than the small amount that can be transferred from the CB (in other words, the CB doesn't add to the effect).

For similar reasons (only more so), I think follow on the CB can only rarely shorten banks by putting draw on the OB.

However, I'm not a great banker, so I thought I'd check my skepticism with you 1P players who are, of necessity, good (and versatile) bankers. Whadya think?

pj
chgo

I found it, pj. It wasn't as hard as I thought.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

petie:
...you were the one who asserted the nullification of follow or draw.

Me:
Where did I do that?

petie:
I found it, pj. It wasn't as hard as I thought.

Me (earlier):
In a recent thread on AzB, folks (at least one of them a world class banker) are saying that draw on the CB makes banks go longer by transferring follow to the OB. I'm skeptical (go figure).

I think this is only true when the OB is on or very close to the rail or hit very hard. Because otherwise the OB very quickly picks up more follow from cloth friction than the small amount that can be transferred from the CB (in other words, the CB doesn't add to the effect).

For similar reasons (only more so), I think follow on the CB can only rarely shorten banks by putting draw on the OB.

However, I'm not a great banker, so I thought I'd check my skepticism with you 1P players who are, of necessity, good (and versatile) bankers. Whadya think?

I guess you're referring to the part in blue above...? What I said there is that draw on the CB doesn't add more follow to the OB than it already has from rolling - maybe you mean any effect on the OB from putting draw on the CB is nullified...?

Anyway, it's all good, petie - hope we're communicating.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I could be wrong but I thought (screwing) the cball meant drawing it. JB

That's what they call it in England, anyway (perverts).

pj
chgo

 

[androd]

Ya'll ever tried Blantons? It's made 30 miles from me in Frankfort,KY.It's the best whiskey I have ever had.Knob creek is very good also. Blantons Gold is their top of the line but the Gold is very hard to come by and If you do find it,it's like 300 bucks a bottle I come across a lil every once in a while only because I have a few buds that work there JB

PS: good whiskey and pool,what a life ya'll lead

I have not but I will, only the poor boy version.
I've been smuggling "JTS Brown" (the movie inspired me) into the pool room.
A shot of good whiskey is $7.00, whats a tightwad to do ?
Rod.
P.S. Have to save my money for gambling.

 

[John Brumback]

I have not but I will, only the poor boy version.
I've been smuggling "JTS Brown" (the movie inspired me) into the pool room.
A shot of good whiskey is $7.00, whats a tightwad to do ?
Rod.
P.S. Have to save my money for gambling.

That's right!! JB

 

[gulfportdoc]

... It's easy to test - and I'd bet money you can do anything with a straight stroke that can be done with a "swipe" stroke.

pj
chgo

Agreed. It's easy to get the impression that "swiping" the cue tip across the face of the CB would impart more side spin on it. Presumably that's how bowlers get so much swerve-- by literally twisting the ball. I've tried it myself. But it turns out that this swiping impression is not only false, but if it were true, then that would make the stroke a "double hit".

~Doc

 

[straightback]

Agreed. It's easy to get the impression that "swiping" the cue tip across the face of the CB would impart more side spin on it. Presumably that's how bowlers get so much swerve-- by literally twisting the ball. I've tried it myself. But it turns out that this swiping impression is not only false, but if it were true, then that would make the stroke a "double hit".

~Doc

You may not be able to get more on it, but you can control it more accurately because you are not having to deal with as much deflection. You don't hit it twice, it you do have a long period of contact with the tip.

 

[mr3cushion]

You may not be able to get more on it, but you can control it more accurately because you are not having to deal with as much deflection. You don't hit it twice, it you do have a long period of contact with the tip.

Just curious, what's going to determine and how does the cue tip have. "a long period of contact with the tip on the CB!"

 

[straightback]

Slow stroke dragging it across the face of the ball.

 

[John Brumback]

I wouldn't call it a swipe but there is something extra you can do with the angle at which you go at or into the cball,IMO. But it might take a slow mo camera to pick it up.I can hold some banks so much they they come backwards. I know I'm not the only one who has done this. We used to call it torking the ball. I do know that the shot is hard to teach,easy to show but hard to teach:lol JB

PS;Wonder if there is any way to make some $ while doing slow mo vids. I would do it for a good sum

 

[John Brumback]

Slow stroke dragging it across the face of the ball.

Ok, so do you think i (or you) could do that shooting firm or hard? JB

 

[straightback]

I think a lot of players generate English in this way with all shots. Buddy Hall was a proponent of "swiping" at the ball as a way to use heavy English in a way that doesn't deflect as much. Efren does it at slow speeds in 1p a lot.

It would definitely take a slow motion camera to count the revolutions but my sense is you can spin it harder by swiping it at higher speeds. I wouldn't necessarily recommend the technique to a new player but I think there is another variable - the angle of approach of the tip as it contacts the cue ball. In tbis way, we can also explain masse type shots. That's the only reason I got on this topic

 

[Patrick Johnson]

You may not be able to get more on it, but you can control it more accurately because you are not having to deal with as much deflection. You don't hit it twice, it you do have a long period of contact with the tip.

Guess we'll just have to live with having different opinions about this .

I don't think you get more spin or less deflection - I think you get exactly what you'd get if you hit the CB with a straight stroke at whatever angle your swipe stroke is moving when it hits the CB - except I also think it's harder to be accurate with it because of the non-straight stroke.

pj
chgo

 

[mr3cushion]

Maybe some can reply to the diagram here, to which type of stroke, speed and English will transfer the most English from the CB to the OB and to the cushion.

View attachment 11076

 

[Patrick Johnson]

It would definitely take a slow motion camera to count the revolutions but my sense is you can spin it harder by swiping it at higher speeds.

I think any increase in spin would clearly show up as a greater change in rebound angle off a rail - I've used a simple test for that:

1. Place a striped ball (your "cue ball") on the spot with the stripe vertical and aligned straight across the table (pointed at the second diamond on the side rail).

2. Shoot the ball directly at the second diamond on the far side rail (so it will bounce straight back at the spot if you hit it without side spin). Put a piece of chalk on the rail turned so its corner is facing you to give you a definite, pinpoint target.

3. Hit the ball on its equator (not high or low) and right on the edge of the stripe (maximum sidespin) with just enough speed to bounce off the far side rail and barely reach the near side rail. Wipe the ball clean before each shot and check the chalkmark after each shot to see where you're actually hitting the ball. Be sure the tip is well groomed and well chalked for each test shot.

4. Mark where the ball hits the near rail (put a coin or a piece of chalk there).

5. Only count shots that you hit just right. If any of the following things doesn't happen, don't count the shot:

- You don't hit the second diamond on the far side rail exactly.
- The ball stops more than an inch or two short or long of the near side rail.
- You don't hit the "cue ball" exactly on the edge of the stripe at the equator.

6. Even being really careful you can't replicate these things exactly every time, so hit enough "good" shots so that you can use the average result - say ten "good" shots with each stroke you're testing. To be reliable your results for each stroke should be very closely grouped.

Test different strokes this way and compare the results (where the ball ends up).

If you want to try more forceful shots, then aim to stop the ball after it rebounds from the near side rail, say at the middle "long string" or at the far side rail again. Again, reject any shot that doesn't stop within an inch or two of the target distance.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Maybe some can reply to the diagram here, to which type of stroke, speed and English will transfer the most English from the CB to the OB and to the cushion.

View attachment 11076

This is pretty well known: slow speed, stun, half maximum sidespin.

There's no single answer to how much the OB will throw. Depends on the equipment.

Link to Dr. Dave's page about it: http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/throw.html#spin

pj
chgo

 

[petie]

I wouldn't call it a swipe but there is something extra you can do with the angle at which you go at or into the cball,IMO. But it might take a slow mo camera to pick it up.I can hold some banks so much they they come backwards. I know I'm not the only one who has done this. We used to call it torking the ball. I do know that the shot is hard to teach,easy to show but hard to teach:lol JB

PS;Wonder if there is any way to make some $ while doing slow mo vids. I would do it for a good sum

John, once in a while when the cue ball is frozen to the object ball and even rarer when there is another object ball frozen to the first one, I have chosen to use throw English but not pointing my cue in the direction of the object balls but rather almost perpendicular across the front of the cue ball. I believe this gives maximum throw. Have you ever done this?

 

[petie]

This may be lost on some but there is a distinction to be made between 'speed' and 'acceleration.' Also, though the cue ball is only legally struck once during a shot, it is in contact over a segment of time. That is, the cue tip contacts the cue ball and plows it forward, or as I like to say, picks it up and carries it, for a brief period of time before they separate. Maybe everybody knows this but maybe not. Maybe some even disagree. If you want to know the molecular and atomic interaction at the time the cue tip is in contact with the cue ball, ask PJ. That's over my head.