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Did the Dennis Victory Settle a Age Old 1P Debate?

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  • Did the Dennis Victory Settle a Age Old 1P Debate?

    Shooter vs Mover, which one is more important overall for winning.

    Did this match settle this debate once and for all?

  • #2
    Originally posted by 1pwannabe View Post
    Shooter vs Mover, which one is more important overall for winning.

    Did this match settle this debate once and for all?
    Who did you think was the shooter and the mover? Dennis made about 98% of his shots and Scott made about 95% of his. This was a great exhibition of excellent shot making, moving, trapping, safety play which we may never see again. Scott showed a lot of class at the end.
    Coyotes, Eagles, and Deer, oh my!

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    • #3
      We case tease out the moving effect in balls by comparing say Alex and a guy like jayson Shaw. Both probably shoot very close but Alex knows how to move very well. So, if those two matched up that would be more or less what moving is worth at top levels. I'd say Shaw would need at least two balls (hope someone who knows more will correct me)? I could be wrong. I don't think that's all that much though to be honest. So if he does only need a couple balls that sorta tells you how much moving knowledge is worth.

      Now, on the other hand, if we took players who were equal in moving knowledge, and one was like a B player in shooting and one was a pro, the handicap would be extreme. Which tells you shooting and execution is heavily favored.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Scrzbill View Post
        Who did you think was the shooter and the mover? Dennis made about 98% of his shots and Scott made about 95% of his. This was a great exhibition of excellent shot making, moving, trapping, safety play which we may never see again. Scott showed a lot of class at the end.

        I'd say Scott was 98% on the easy shots and 70% on the hard ones.... if we include spot shots as hard.

        I don't think I've ever seen him pocket balls so poorly.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by 1pwannabe View Post
          Shooter vs Mover, which one is more important overall for winning.

          Did this match settle this debate once and for all?
          Well, we have player A with top 3 moving skills but shooting skills between 50 and 100 (I made that up, but it sounds right) against Player B with top 3 shooting skills and strong moving skills. Player A gets 30 games vs. 40 for Player B. Moving skills kept this from being a bloodbath.

          Suppose they played 10 ball, race to 100. That could be 100 to 50, or 50%. I'm guessing that moving skills account for the gap between this theoretical 50% and the actual 75% in the 1P match.

          Bottom line, moving matters a hell of a lot. Shooting matters a hell of a lot, too. The debate continues.
          "LOL ... judging by your shot selections you play good" -- Hacker, September 29, 2015.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by 1pwannabe View Post
            Shooter vs Mover, which one is more important overall for winning.

            Did this match settle this debate once and for all?
            i dont think it settled that issue at all...... dennis is a special player, one i havent seen in my lifetime......imho, a combination of those 2 styles gets the best results.......

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            • #7
              i dont think this settled the debate because of the size of the pocket
              if the pocket size was of a size that scott could pocket balls comfortably
              even tho dennis is the better shooter i think scott would have won
              because all those near misses /hanging balls/rattles would have gone in
              and most time scott beat dennis to the first shot
              this post from tom wirth in another thread i think is spot on
              ,,,
              ,,,,
              tom wirth
              I preface this post by first pointing out that I didn't see any of the four days this match ran, but I have read and heard quite a bit and that which I have heard has brought to mind a thread I started on the 3rd of Oct. last year. "tight vs. loose pockets" You may recall it was then and still is my contention that between two top flight players one being more of a shooter and the other more of a mover, tight pockets will favor the shooter.

              It has been brought to my attention that Scott and Dennis were playing on a table with 4 1/4 inch pockets and Scott seemed to get the first shot more often than did Dennis but Dennis was able to run more balls when he managed to pocket a first ball. Scott was unable to prevent Dennis from finding something to shoot and score with and this inability to stop Dennis' firepower is a major contributor to Scott's loss. Whatever the size pockets Dennis was obviously more comfortable with their size then was Scott.

              There are various posts recently pointing out how Scott rattled balls in his pocket where Dennis did not. There were other posts stating how Scott had large leads in several games yet still lost some of them for various reasons. One principle reason being Scott didn't run enough balls to win outright when he had the open shots. Would those games been won by Scott had they been playing on 4 1/2 inch pockets? I don't know but one thing is for certain, he didn't win enough of them on this tighter table.

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              • #8
                It isn't just a question of shooting vs moving, it is really a question of the degree of out-shooting vs out-moving. In any sport where there is a combination of defense and offense there is going to be an ebb and flow between them.

                The thing with pool is that both offense and defense (shooting and moving) is that the quality of both is built on a combination of knowledge and execution. It is clear that Dennis had a significant edge in execution. That helped both his moving and his shooting, and seems to have overcome Scott's edge in knowledge.
                "One Pocket, it's an epidemic and there ain't no cure."
                -- Strawberry Brooks

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by NH Steve View Post
                  It isn't just a question of shooting vs moving, it is really a question of the degree of out-shooting vs out-moving. In any sport where there is a combination of defense and offense there is going to be an ebb and flow between them.

                  The thing with pool is that both offense and defense (shooting and moving) is that the quality of both is built on a combination of knowledge and execution. It is clear that Dennis had a significant edge in execution. That helped both his moving and his shooting, and seems to have overcome Scott's edge in knowledge.
                  The disparity between DO's pocketing skills and Scott's pocketing skills in this match was the main reason Dennis won... The ability to make a ball to begin a run from anywhere, at any distance and to confidently keep the run going with banks, and extreme cuts was the main deciding factor... Dennis was by far the superior shooter, making balls from positions where a good shooter wouldn't even consider the shot... He's a remarkably accurate shooter and in this particular match his banking skills were tremendous as well... He won several games trailing 5/6/7 to 0 with all the balls uptable... This had to be the hardest thing to cope with for Scott, losing a single game with a big lead is hard on the psych, let alone losing 4 or 5 of them... When someone continues to bring it, game after game, shot after shot, it has to affect the other player, and this is what happened in the match... Scott's confidence was reasonably shaken, who's wouldn't be? If every time you left a sliver of a shot the guy buried it, every time you left him a bank, he fired it in.. Scott held up fairly well when one considers what he was dealing with... A freakin MONSTER!!!

                  Now when Alex and Dennis play for the belt, and they will, it will be very interesting, because I believe Alex is a great mover and pockets balls very close to Dennis's level. Dennis has a great CB, so does Alex, they both bank well, and run balls equally, this match up has to happen, it will truly be a WAR... DO is fearless, and so is Alex, if the game is played on a table with 4 1/4" pockets it should be a real close match... I'd like to see it..

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    By the little bit I saw it seemed much more powerful of a move to freeze the opponent to a ball(s) than to freeze him to a rail and Dennis looked like he was more capable of freezing Scott to a ball(s).
                    Live long and play strong,
                    -Chicagomike

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                    • #11
                      To me, this match helped to solidify Fargorate as ranking system that measures ability across disciplines. I realize a Fargorate score is built on rotation games, but it is trying to measure skill with a cue, and here, frankly, given Frost's Fargorate score and game knowledge and experience, I would have thought it would be closer, but the guy with the higher Fargorate score prevailed over a relatively large sample size.

                      kollegedave

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                      • #12
                        All you guys saying that Scott lost the match because Dennis pocketed better than Scott... REALLY? Was that a shock to you guys? Who the hell did you think was going to pocket better before it started? If thats what you think Scott undoing was then why the hell did they play the match in the first place..
                        How about his decision making let him down more than his shot making.. Up 7 to 0 and shoots a combo bank with dennis having a ball hanging and all the balls out of play and opens the balls and blows the game.. how many games did scott have monster leads and end up getting out moved and gave dennis the shot.... how many games did scott lose when he needed 1 and dennis needed two or 3. How about the game where Dennis needed 1 ball and Scott needed 2 and Scott had already given Dennis 2 back cuts on the spot shot that Dennis barely missed.. Dennis makes 1 of the up table balls and Scott doesnt make the other to get them both in play and instead he gives Dennis his THIRD back cut on the spot ball and Dennis makes it.. How many times did he think Dennis would miss it...
                        Scott made mental blunders he doesnt ever make.. Here is a shock for you guys.. Dennis moved as well or BETTER than Scott... You guys want to focus on Scott not running 8s and out and instead getting 5s.. well guess what if your up 5 to 0 at Scotts level if he is moving good Dennis should never had a prayer to win those games.. Did you guys think Scott was going to get up there playing a guy like Dennis for $ 200,000 and he was going to run balls like he was playing Dippy Dave? The money pressure, the pressure Dennis applied and the so called mythical jerk yourself off best one pocket player in the world title on the line of course scott wasnt going to never miss a ball.. Under the circumstances I think he pocketed well, not great but well considering..
                        The easy excuse here is ..If i pocketed better I would have won..Its easy to write off the loss on human error after all we are human.. In a few days Scott should go back and watch his decision making and how he moved in the games i listed above and maybe you guys should also and then if he really wants to learn and improve at his level he will be able to say to himself my mental game let me down.. Im not even going to get into his body language, blaming the table etc.. Dennis played on the same table and had ZERO problems

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by chicagomike View Post
                          By the little bit I saw it seemed much more powerful of a move to freeze the opponent to a ball(s) than to freeze him to a rail and Dennis looked like he was more capable of freezing Scott to a ball(s).
                          Your right he MOVED better than Scott and executed

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jeff sparks View Post
                            The disparity between DO's pocketing skills and Scott's pocketing skills in this match was the main reason Dennis won... The ability to make a ball to begin a run from anywhere, at any distance and to confidently keep the run going with banks, and extreme cuts was the main deciding factor... Dennis was by far the superior shooter, making balls from positions where a good shooter wouldn't even consider the shot... He's a remarkably accurate shooter and in this particular match his banking skills were tremendous as well... He won several games trailing 5/6/7 to 0 with all the balls uptable... This had to be the hardest thing to cope with for Scott, losing a single game with a big lead is hard on the psych, let alone losing 4 or 5 of them... When someone continues to bring it, game after game, shot after shot, it has to affect the other player, and this is what happened in the match... Scott's confidence was reasonably shaken, who's wouldn't be? If every time you left a sliver of a shot the guy buried it, every time you left him a bank, he fired it in.. Scott held up fairly well when one considers what he was dealing with... A freakin MONSTER!!!

                            Now when Alex and Dennis play for the belt, and they will, it will be very interesting, because I believe Alex is a great mover and pockets balls very close to Dennis's level. Dennis has a great CB, so does Alex, they both bank well, and run balls equally, this match up has to happen, it will truly be a WAR... DO is fearless, and so is Alex, if the game is played on a table with 4 1/4" pockets it should be a real close match... I'd like to see it..
                            Jeff its real simple... Scott has zero chance of winning getting the 8 and 9 from Dennis playing 10 ball.. so if pocketing and cue ball control were the deciding factors then why did they play the match? What won the match was Dennis moves A LOT better than people thought he did..AND amazingly you guys watched it for 4 days and still dont realize it

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                            • #15
                              One last thing that table played like buckets.. Balls were hitting the second and third diamond and sliding in.. Forget the pocket size when there is new cloth the pocket tightness means shit..

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