Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Why Do Diamond Tables Bank Shorter?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Originally posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
    ...the OB actually banks a little longer when hit harder - because digging deeper into the rail gives it a wider curved apex.
    Originally posted by sausage View Post
    i think that just the opposite is true. the more the ball sinks into the rail the shorter the bank. hence hitting banks hard shortens them up because there is now more cushion on the side of the ball.
    Yeah, most everybody thinks that - and that makes sense because it fits what we see. And I think the explanation that makes sense is probably the best one to help your game.

    But for anybody who's interested, a simple test you can do yourself (the one Jewett and Dr. Dave demonstrate in their video that I can't find) seems to show otherwise.

    What you do is set up a frozen combo (to minimize cueing error) almost touching the rail (to eliminate forward roll) at whatever bank angle you want (use "donuts" for consistency), shoot the combo with the CB (from straight on, nearby for accuracy) and mark where the banked ball hits the opposite rail at different speeds.

    The logic goes like this: if rubber compression is the cause then the bank angle without forward roll should still be wider at slower speeds. But if the bank angle without forward spin is actually steeper at slower speeds, then the cause of the difference is forward roll widening slow banks and the absence of it making fast ones shorter by comparison.

    Or something like that.

    pj
    chgo
    Last edited by Patrick Johnson; 08-20-2017, 08:41 PM.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by lll View Post
      this post from realkingcobra suggests its the angle of the nose of the cusion that was changed to make the blue labels bank closer to gold crowns
      http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpo...7&postcount=23
      And he says the effect of the change is to slow the rails down.

      pj
      chgo

      Comment


      • #63
        http://billiards.colostate.edu/threa...s.html#effects

        In the above page Patrick has posted four table illustrations showing the 3,4,5,and 6 diamonds of separation guide for three rail kicks.

        All of these work as shown on my Diamond.
        Dan

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by oldschool1478 View Post
          http://billiards.colostate.edu/threa...s.html#effects

          In the above page Patrick has posted four table illustrations showing the 3,4,5,and 6 diamonds of separation guide for three rail kicks.

          All of these work as shown on my Diamond.
          with the cue ball on the center spot of the foot rail
          where do you aim with no spin on the long rail to go 2 rails to the corner ?

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by lll View Post
            with the cue ball on the center spot of the foot rail
            where do you aim with no spin on the long rail to go 2 rails to the corner ?
            Last diamond before corner.
            Dan

            Comment


            • #66
              OK, so we now have 65 reasons why every Diamond needs to be turned into winter firewood.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by oldschool1478 View Post
                Last diamond before corner.
                me too
                your table plays pretty close to mine (gc 1 or 2)
                you did a great job on your table...

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by straightback View Post
                  OK, so we now have 65 reasons why every Diamond needs to be turned into winter firewood.
                  dont know if you were serious
                  without an emoticon i assume so
                  noone is saying to turn them into firewood
                  just trying to understand why they tend to play different from gold crowns

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by lll View Post
                    dont know if you were serious
                    without an emoticon i assume so
                    noone is saying to turn them into firewood
                    just trying to understand why they tend to play different from gold crowns
                    Oh, I'm serious, good sir. How've you been, old friend?

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by straightback View Post
                      Oh, I'm serious, good sir. How've you been, old friend?
                      i am doing fine "old friend"....
                      check your pm
                      i will give you my cell # so we can chat and catch up on old times...

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
                        I don't buy it - seems to me softer rubber would allow the ball to travel farther along the rail before rebounding, widening the rebound angle. Another factor: softer rubber might rebound slower (not sure), also widening the rebound angle.
                        i have to respond again to this: i'm very surprised that any pool player -ESPECIALLY a one-pocket player- doesn't know that hitting banks hard shortens them up. it has to do with the amount of rubber pushing on the side of the ball as it sinks into the rail. the further you sink into the rail more of the rail is pushing on the ball from the side forcing it shorter. softer rails will bank shorter.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by sausage View Post
                          i'm very surprised that any pool player -ESPECIALLY a one-pocket player- doesn't know that hitting banks hard shortens them up.
                          We agree that happens. It's the explanation for it that we see differently.

                          As I explained before (not very well, I guess), the understandable confusion comes from comparing rolling banks with sliding banks. Softer banks tend to be rolling when they hit the rail, which causes them to curve longer after rebounding. Harder banks tend to slide into the rail without forward rotation, losing that curve and going shorter for that reason.

                          If you compare slow sliding banks with hard sliding banks (it's been done) you see that, surprisingly, the harder ones actually go (a little) longer - because going deeper into the rail also means traveling farther along it before rebounding.

                          But again, to me this is all just interesting background - I think both explanations are consistent enough with what happens to be equally useful.

                          pj
                          chgo
                          Last edited by Patrick Johnson; 08-27-2017, 01:06 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
                            We agree that happens. It's the explanation for it that we see differently.

                            As I explained before (not very well, I guess), the understandable confusion comes from comparing rolling banks with sliding banks. Softer banks tend to be rolling when they hit the rail, which causes them to curve longer after rebounding. Harder banks tend to slide into the rail without forward rotation, losing that curve and going shorter for that reason.

                            If you compare slow sliding banks with hard sliding banks (it's been done) you see that, surprisingly, the harder ones actually go (a little) longer - because going deeper into the rail lengthens the curved path out again.

                            But again, to me this is all just interesting background - I think both explanations are consistent enough with what happens to be equally useful.

                            pj
                            chgo
                            Since we already have some confusion, how about I add some more, lol. Aren't many of the effects of english, slide vs roll & depth of cushion penetration quite different, depending on what kind of approach angle you have into the cushion, i.e. what you might call acute angles vs obtuse angles?
                            "One Pocket, it's an epidemic and there ain't no cure."
                            -- Strawberry Brooks

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by NH Steve View Post
                              Since we already have some confusion, how about I add some more, lol. Aren't many of the effects of english, slide vs roll & depth of cushion penetration quite different, depending on what kind of approach angle you have into the cushion, i.e. what you might call acute angles vs obtuse angles?
                              As far as I know it's a matter of degree. For instance, the forward roll that causes a slower bank to curve longer has the greatest effect at a 45 degree bank angle (when the ball makes a right-angle turn and the direction of forward rotation is perpendicular to the rebound angle) and less effect at steeper or wider angles.

                              Knowing the real explanation can help sometimes. For instance, an OB close to the rail slides into the rail even at slower speeds, so it should be aimed like a harder bank. Of course an experienced player adjusts for this with or without knowing (or caring) why - but the info might shorten the learning curve.

                              pj
                              chgo
                              Last edited by Patrick Johnson; 08-27-2017, 01:07 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Question ? What is the best cushions to achieve a mirror image on banks with minimal to no 2nd cushion reversing on double banks.

                                I love fast responsive cushions that makes you be honest and the balls need to be pocketed cleanly. I also like cushions that work the standard diamond system.

                                I want to replace the cushions on my antique Brunswick 1912 but am cautious for the replacement cushions maybe worst than what I have now, for my cushions still play pretty good but not as good as they once were. It takes a k-55 profile and the cushions are wider, I believe 1-3/16. Which is not a standard for today. Is there any one that has gone down this route, any suggestion. I wanted a personal first hand opinion vs. calling an antique restorer. The only cushions I have found is a Brunswick super speed but reviews state they go away quickly, and they are not the cushion of yesteryear ? Whitey

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X