Why Do Diamond Tables Bank Shorter?

[Patrick Johnson]

...the OB actually banks a little longer when hit harder - because digging deeper into the rail gives it a wider curved apex.

i think that just the opposite is true. the more the ball sinks into the rail the shorter the bank. hence hitting banks hard shortens them up because there is now more cushion on the side of the ball.

Yeah, most everybody thinks that - and that makes sense because it fits what we see. And I think the explanation that makes sense is probably the best one to help your game.

But for anybody who's interested, a simple test you can do yourself (the one Jewett and Dr. Dave demonstrate in their video that I can't find) seems to show otherwise.

What you do is set up a frozen combo (to minimize cueing error) almost touching the rail (to eliminate forward roll) at whatever bank angle you want (use "donuts" for consistency), shoot the combo with the CB (from straight on, nearby for accuracy) and mark where the banked ball hits the opposite rail at different speeds.

The logic goes like this: if rubber compression is the cause then the bank angle without forward roll should still be wider at slower speeds. But if the bank angle without forward spin is actually steeper at slower speeds, then the cause of the difference is forward roll widening slow banks and the absence of it making fast ones shorter by comparison.

Or something like that.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

this post from realkingcobra suggests its the angle of the nose of the cusion that was changed to make the blue labels bank closer to gold crowns
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=3598967&postcount=23

And he says the effect of the change is to slow the rails down.

pj
chgo

 

[oldschool1478]

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html#effects

In the above page Patrick has posted four table illustrations showing the 3,4,5,and 6 diamonds of separation guide for three rail kicks.

All of these work as shown on my Diamond.

 

[lll]

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html#effects

In the above page Patrick has posted four table illustrations showing the 3,4,5,and 6 diamonds of separation guide for three rail kicks.

All of these work as shown on my Diamond.

with the cue ball on the center spot of the foot rail
where do you aim with no spin on the long rail to go 2 rails to the corner ?

 

[oldschool1478]

with the cue ball on the center spot of the foot rail
where do you aim with no spin on the long rail to go 2 rails to the corner ?

Last diamond before corner.

 

[straightback]

OK, so we now have 65 reasons why every Diamond needs to be turned into winter firewood.

 

[lll]

Last diamond before corner.

me too
your table plays pretty close to mine (gc 1 or 2)
you did a great job on your table...

 

[lll]

OK, so we now have 65 reasons why every Diamond needs to be turned into winter firewood.

dont know if you were serious
without an emoticon i assume so
noone is saying to turn them into firewood
just trying to understand why they tend to play different from gold crowns

 

[straightback]

dont know if you were serious
without an emoticon i assume so
noone is saying to turn them into firewood
just trying to understand why they tend to play different from gold crowns

Oh, I'm serious, good sir. How've you been, old friend?

 

[lll]

Oh, I'm serious, good sir. How've you been, old friend?

i am doing fine "old friend"....
check your pm
i will give you my cell # so we can chat and catch up on old times...

 

[sausage]

I don't buy it - seems to me softer rubber would allow the ball to travel farther along the rail before rebounding, widening the rebound angle. Another factor: softer rubber might rebound slower (not sure), also widening the rebound angle.

i have to respond again to this: i'm very surprised that any pool player -ESPECIALLY a one-pocket player- doesn't know that hitting banks hard shortens them up. it has to do with the amount of rubber pushing on the side of the ball as it sinks into the rail. the further you sink into the rail more of the rail is pushing on the ball from the side forcing it shorter. softer rails will bank shorter.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

i'm very surprised that any pool player -ESPECIALLY a one-pocket player- doesn't know that hitting banks hard shortens them up.

We agree that happens. It's the explanation for it that we see differently.

As I explained before (not very well, I guess), the understandable confusion comes from comparing rolling banks with sliding banks. Softer banks tend to be rolling when they hit the rail, which causes them to curve longer after rebounding. Harder banks tend to slide into the rail without forward rotation, losing that curve and going shorter for that reason.

If you compare slow sliding banks with hard sliding banks (it's been done) you see that, surprisingly, the harder ones actually go (a little) longer - because going deeper into the rail also means traveling farther along it before rebounding.

But again, to me this is all just interesting background - I think both explanations are consistent enough with what happens to be equally useful.

pj
chgo

 

[NH Steve]

We agree that happens. It's the explanation for it that we see differently.

As I explained before (not very well, I guess), the understandable confusion comes from comparing rolling banks with sliding banks. Softer banks tend to be rolling when they hit the rail, which causes them to curve longer after rebounding. Harder banks tend to slide into the rail without forward rotation, losing that curve and going shorter for that reason.

If you compare slow sliding banks with hard sliding banks (it's been done) you see that, surprisingly, the harder ones actually go (a little) longer - because going deeper into the rail lengthens the curved path out again.

But again, to me this is all just interesting background - I think both explanations are consistent enough with what happens to be equally useful.

pj
chgo

Since we already have some confusion, how about I add some more, lol. Aren't many of the effects of english, slide vs roll & depth of cushion penetration quite different, depending on what kind of approach angle you have into the cushion, i.e. what you might call acute angles vs obtuse angles?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Since we already have some confusion, how about I add some more, lol. Aren't many of the effects of english, slide vs roll & depth of cushion penetration quite different, depending on what kind of approach angle you have into the cushion, i.e. what you might call acute angles vs obtuse angles?

As far as I know it's a matter of degree. For instance, the forward roll that causes a slower bank to curve longer has the greatest effect at a 45 degree bank angle (when the ball makes a right-angle turn and the direction of forward rotation is perpendicular to the rebound angle) and less effect at steeper or wider angles.

Knowing the real explanation can help sometimes. For instance, an OB close to the rail slides into the rail even at slower speeds, so it should be aimed like a harder bank. Of course an experienced player adjusts for this with or without knowing (or caring) why - but the info might shorten the learning curve.

pj
chgo

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Question ? What is the best cushions to achieve a mirror image on banks with minimal to no 2nd cushion reversing on double banks.

I love fast responsive cushions that makes you be honest and the balls need to be pocketed cleanly. I also like cushions that work the standard diamond system.

I want to replace the cushions on my antique Brunswick 1912 but am cautious for the replacement cushions maybe worst than what I have now, for my cushions still play pretty good but not as good as they once were. It takes a k-55 profile and the cushions are wider, I believe 1-3/16. Which is not a standard for today. Is there any one that has gone down this route, any suggestion. I wanted a personal first hand opinion vs. calling an antique restorer. The only cushions I have found is a Brunswick super speed but reviews state they go away quickly, and they are not the cushion of yesteryear ? Whitey

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Question ? What is the best cushions to achieve a mirror image on banks with minimal to no 2nd cushion reversing on double banks.

I don't think the rubber has much to do with the amount of "reversing" that occurs on the 2nd rail. That's all about the cloth and ball (friction and spin).

pj
chgo

 

[lll]

Question ? What is the best cushions to achieve a mirror image on banks with minimal to no 2nd cushion reversing on double banks.

I love fast responsive cushions that makes you be honest and the balls need to be pocketed cleanly. I also like cushions that work the standard diamond system.

I want to replace the cushions on my antique Brunswick 1912 but am cautious for the replacement cushions maybe worst than what I have now, for my cushions still play pretty good but not as good as they once were. It takes a k-55 profile and the cushions are wider, I believe 1-3/16. Which is not a standard for today. Is there any one that has gone down this route, any suggestion. I wanted a personal first hand opinion vs. calling an antique restorer. The only cushions I have found is a Brunswick super speed but reviews state they go away quickly, and they are not the cushion of yesteryear ? Whitey

i dont know about antique brunswicks
but my understanding is superpeeds are usually the rubber used on gold crowns
over at azb there is a forum "TALK TO A MECHANIC"
you may want to post your question there or do a search over there
http://forums.azbilliards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=54

 

[phil dade]

Question ? What is the best cushions to achieve a mirror image on banks with minimal to no 2nd cushion reversing on double banks.

I love fast responsive cushions that makes you be honest and the balls need to be pocketed cleanly. I also like cushions that work the standard diamond system.

I want to replace the cushions on my antique Brunswick 1912 but am cautious for the replacement cushions maybe worst than what I have now, for my cushions still play pretty good but not as good as they once were. It takes a k-55 profile and the cushions are wider, I believe 1-3/16. Which is not a standard for today. Is there any one that has gone down this route, any suggestion. I wanted a personal first hand opinion vs. calling an antique restorer. The only cushions I have found is a Brunswick super speed but reviews state they go away quickly, and they are not the cushion of yesteryear ? Whitey

The best rubber for your table is Brunswick SuperSpeed. Do not have an "Antique Restorer" set up you table, unless he specializes in pool tables. Contact Mark Gregory, perfectpockez.com. I have 2 tables, 1 up, 1 in storage.

My Non Parallel Novelty is in storage, Circa 1880, played great, fast and true. Natural wide pockets and friendly shelf. IOW, very fun. It had SuperSpeed rubber. it also is 3" taller than today's tables as were all of the day, the surface is 34" off floor.

Brunswick Centennial tables were very well respected despite being discontinued in favor of the GC. Diamond was still struggling with Red Label Banking issues. Therefore I bought a BRW Centennial and had it set up with Artemis K 55. It played awful. I had Mark Gregory redo it with Brunswick SuperSpeed and it plays fabulous. My friend had Mark redo his Monarch with SuperSpeeds at my suggestion and is very pleased.

I suspect your table has T bolt rails which will never seem as solid as Centennial, GC, or any Diamond-Blue.

There is your personal experience with 3 tables. Good luck. If you want Mark's #, PM me.

Good luck,
Phil

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I want to replace the cushions on my antique Brunswick 1912 but am cautious for the replacement cushions maybe worst than what I have now, for my cushions still play pretty good but not as good as they once were. It takes a k-55 profile and the cushions are wider, I believe 1-3/16. Which is not a standard for today.

I can't find much about K-55 profiles, but what I do find isn't much different from that.

pj
chgo

View attachment 62069

 

[NH Steve]

I don't think the rubber has much to do with the amount of "reversing" that occurs on the 2nd rail. That's all about the cloth and ball (friction and spin).

pj
chgo

Actually I think you are wrong about this. The club I play in got brand new GC's a couple of years ago, but even though they were brand new, the table mechanic sold the club on a number of upgrades. One of which was Kleber (AKA Klematch maybe) cushions. I think they are made by a European company known for three cushion rubber, but apparently they also make pool table rubber.

What I do know absolutely positively for certain is that they do not shorten up anywhere near as much as any other table cushions I have ever encountered. These tables and the specs they were ordered to were definitely not my recommendation lol. I have been playing on them regularly for the last two years, through at least two cloth changes, and multiple seasonal and humidity cycles, so I can say with certainty that is the way they play.

It makes z-banks a whole lot easier, but it takes away a ton of banks where on other tables the banks could have been shortened to make and/or avoid a kiss. I hate the cushions to be honest lol, but it still is the most convenient place to play for me that has a good chance of good competition, so I suck it up and play there. I would dump those tables in a heartbeat for Diamonds if I could!