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  • #16
    I asked Efren this question many years ago and he told me to shoot the cueball open handed whenever possible and to cue the ball as low as possible. He also said that grabbing the butt to tight causes the "skid" to occur at the worst possible times. If you think about it, it makes sense in that skid occurs more on the eight and nine ball than on the one or two balls when shooting through the rack. We all get tight as the game nears its end......maybe he is right?

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    • #17
      Originally posted by jerry matchin View Post
      Efren ... said that grabbing the butt to tight causes the "skid" to occur at the worst possible times.
      When you hear something like this you have to ask yourself, "what would make that happen?". In this case, nothing - it just doesn't make any sense. Reminds me of The Beard's advice to grip more tightly to make certain bank shots go - Freddie was a great banker, but he believed some magic.

      Like most things in pool "skid" is a pretty simple phenomenon, caused by the most obvious thing: excess friction between the CB and OB (usually because of something between them at the point of contact). Nothing you do with your grip, stroke or cue can make any difference (except the usual things that affect throw, like shooting harder/softer or with spin).

      pj
      chgo
      Last edited by Patrick Johnson; 09-20-2017, 01:29 PM.

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      • #18
        Jerry, Patrick;
        I can not disagree with Jerry on this one. For as I threaded a kid on my local bca team can play tight and he grips a hard full hand grip plus he strokes with the tendency to stroke down on the cue ball. I watched him skid three shots in a row, while no one else had any problems. And he stated; "how do you get rid of this s++t. I just kinda of laughed and said to myself; He'll learn".

        I can not discount friction between balls either, but to think that is all that causes skid or the ob ball turning over, I will not go that far! Whitey

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Dennis "Whitey" Young View Post
          Jerry, Patrick;
          I can not disagree with Jerry on this one. For as I threaded a kid on my local bca team can play tight and he grips a hard full hand grip plus he strokes with the tendency to stroke down on the cue ball. I watched him skid three shots in a row, while no one else had any problems. And he stated; "how do you get rid of this s++t. I just kinda of laughed and said to myself; He'll learn".

          I can not discount friction between balls either, but to think that is all that causes skid or the ob ball turning over, I will not go that far! Whitey
          Any theories how the grip (or anything but ball/ball friction) can cause skids? That's the thing that stumps me - I just can't see a connection. It's like quantum pool - the grip and the OB are "entangled" at a distance.


          pj
          chgo
          Last edited by Patrick Johnson; 09-20-2017, 04:31 PM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
            Any theories how the grip (or anything but ball/ball friction) can cause skids? That's the thing that stumps me - I just can't see a connection. It's like quantum pool - the grip and the OB are "entangled" at a distance.


            pj
            chgo
            Next you'll tell us there's no Santa Clause, Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny, or pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

            Killjoy!

            ("Get offa my G** D*** grass you young whippersnappers.!")

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            • #21
              Originally posted by lll View Post
              except for the purists from the old days
              centennial pool balls like gold crown tables are unfortunately the preference of the purists/old timers
              diamonds dont play true to the billiard systems but seem to be the current norm
              just like aramith or cyclops balls
              i guess you can call it "progress" but it sucks to me
              gold crown
              centennial balls
              billiliard systems
              die hard......
              jmho
              icbw
              Trust me, I understand traditional. My home table is a GC3 & had old style green cloth until a couple months ago (recovered w/ Granero Basalt in blue & shocked my whole family). If Centennials were still American made by Brunswick, that's what I would be using. Unfortunately, had I been able to convince my self to pay four figures for the new, in-the-box original Centennials, I doubt anyone but me would have ever gotten to play them.
              "If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague."---unknown

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
                When you hear something like this you have to ask yourself, "what would make that happen?". In this case, nothing - it just doesn't make any sense. Reminds me of The Beard's advice to grip more tightly to make certain bank shots go - Freddie was a great banker, but he believed some magic.

                Like most things in pool "skid" is a pretty simple phenomenon, caused by the most obvious thing: excess friction between the CB and OB (usually because of something between them at the point of contact). Nothing you do with your grip, stroke or cue can make any difference (except the usual things that affect throw, like shooting harder/softer or with spin).

                pj
                chgo
                Neither can follow through. Yet anything you do in the course of a stroke has an effect on everything that follows after, up to the point of impact and the infinitesimal period of dwell. It can definitely affect your consistency as well. Many of the things Freddy said did & do have exactly the RESULTS on a shot that he claimed. Because they alter your stroke and influence the impact. I admire you guys who are dedicated to finding out exactly why and how something happens but empirical testimony should not be dismissed because there is no apparent explanation.
                "If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague."---unknown

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
                  When you hear something like this you have to ask yourself, "what would make that happen?". In this case, nothing - it just doesn't make any sense. Reminds me of The Beard's advice to grip more tightly to make certain bank shots go - Freddie was a great banker, but he believed some magic.

                  Like most things in pool "skid" is a pretty simple phenomenon, caused by the most obvious thing: excess friction between the CB and OB (usually because of something between them at the point of contact). Nothing you do with your grip, stroke or cue can make any difference (except the usual things that affect throw, like shooting harder/softer or with spin).
                  pj
                  chgo
                  You're right, PJ. Most guys who have been playing for a long time have certain idiosyncracies that are unique to them which they come to believe have an actual effect on CB or OB reaction. But if another guy utilizes the same method, it doesn't work. The reason is because the original shooter's method had no validity whatsoever, except to mistakenly fool him into thinking that it did. But however much logic and example are presented to him, he'll go to the grave believing his system works. And......in effect, it does, for him.. And Freddy, God bless him, had a million of 'em.

                  ~Doc

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                  • #24
                    well we got two that understand hokus pocus is foolish to believe in.

                    but then many believe in ghosts.

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                    • #25
                      I have many ghosts that have followed me around for years.
                      "If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague."---unknown

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Cary View Post
                        Neither can follow through. Yet anything you do in the course of a stroke has an effect on everything that follows after, up to the point of impact and the infinitesimal period of dwell. It can definitely affect your consistency as well.
                        You sound like me - I've said the same thing many times.

                        Many of the things Freddy said did & do have exactly the RESULTS on a shot that he claimed. Because they alter your stroke and influence the impact. I admire you guys who are dedicated to finding out exactly why and how something happens but empirical testimony should not be dismissed because there is no apparent explanation.
                        Good advice.

                        But I can imagine how Freddy's grip can influence his hit on the CB, even if it only works for him. On the other hand, I can't imagine how anything that can be done with the cue can influence the likelihood of skid (other than known ways of avoiding throw).

                        pj
                        chgo

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Me neither, but come on, it's Efren. He's just reporting what he see's. It's up to engineering to figure out the "why".
                          "If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague."---unknown

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by crabbcatjohn View Post
                            A few years back i was playing Shane Winters at the DCC. First match in the morning, the DCC guy just cleaned the table. He threw out a brand new set of those one eyed balls. Within seconds each one had a obvious fine coat of chalk all over them. I'm guessing it was static electricity that attracted it. We both had at least 3 horrible skids during the match. It was brutal... I've always noticed that skids occur the most when you use a little high outside on a softer hit. I saw the same thing during Mosconi a few yrs back. It seemed like the US players were getting more than a few skids and the Europe boys were playing those type shots harder to avoid the skids. The room i play at has gone down hill the last few yrs so the balls are always greasy and filthy along with the tables. Skids are pretty rare there...
                            For sure. The soft, rolling shot allows for maximum gearing. Gearing I would describe in pool as the ability for the balls to transfer friction. Ironically, a ton of spin doesn't allow friction to be transferred, whereas little bits allow much more. If you watch some brumback dvds where he has to get max torque in an ob he uses spin but just a touch to get the max torque out of it, he'll never load up on the English.

                            We get most (or all?) skids with high rolling, slow shots, imo, because the cb will tend to jump because that's the way it is rolling (up the face of the cb). With draw the cb is getting forced down and the ob is getting sent on its rolling path. I believe somewhere in there lies the answer. When the cb is able to go "up", and leave the surface of the cloth, the contact then becomes very unnatural. You can still make the ball, as frank mentioned, as I've had that many times, but the overall result of the shot is very unnatural. Think about what is happening: the cb is in contact with the ob, and during say half that contact time, it's rolling up the face of the ob. it could even collide again with the ob on its way back down! Any scenario where a cb is climing the ob is going to result is a very strange outcome. Again, we don't get skids with centerball or draw shots because the cb perhaps physically can't go up, as the friction is not doctating that. Maybe the key to figuring out skids is realizing they occur only/mostly? when the cb is able to rise up?

                            Here's the million dollar clue to the above sentiments (that high, slow rolling shots are predominantly the culprit): we should get a ton more skids with center ball hits, because that's when the friction is at or near the maximum. But we don't see that imo. I believe now that skids are caused by the cb rolling up and that causes everything.

                            I totally agree with you I've had sessions wi super clean balls, maybe a little power on the table and tons of skids. Maybe contact a spec of the powder in just the right spot with a slow high rolling ball is what does it.

                            Anyway, I'm just half guessing my way through it. Interesting discussion.
                            Last edited by El Chapo; 09-20-2017, 11:37 PM.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by gulfportdoc View Post
                              You're right, PJ. Most guys who have been playing for a long time have certain idiosyncracies that are unique to them which they come to believe have an actual effect on CB or OB reaction. But if another guy utilizes the same method, it doesn't work. The reason is because the original shooter's method had no validity whatsoever, except to mistakenly fool him into thinking that it did. But however much logic and example are presented to him, he'll go to the grave believing his system works. And......in effect, it does, for him.. And Freddy, God bless him, had a million of 'em.

                              ~Doc
                              Amen, Doc. It's that correlation/causation deal that confuses.

                              Sometimes even pretty good 3C players can fool themselves for 40 or years or so.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Anything that tends to make the balls not separate upon contact is associated with skids.
                                1. Chalk
                                2. Humidity
                                3. Soft, roughly half-ball hits
                                4. Inside English
                                5. Using a CB that is heavier than the ball set
                                6. New, slick cloth
                                7. Very polished balls
                                8. Very dirty balls

                                Someone mentioned grip - I would be surprised to learn that grip had anything to do with it.
                                Last edited by straightback; 09-21-2017, 12:55 PM.

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