Managing One Pocket tournament time --DCC edition

[NH Steve]

We have discussed this topic on onepocket.org quite a bit -- sometimes theoretically and sometimes for real situations. Well, this one is real and it is one of our favorite events -- the Derby City One Pocket division. This year the One Pocket ran way past its scheduled finals slot of Thursday night, into the late hours of Friday night. I don't think I've seen it fall a whole day behind like that since back at the Exec West.

I spoke with Greg Sullivan and he wants us to talk about this, along with other rule changes he is thinking about for Derby City, and come up with suggestions (that they might or might not decide to incorporate).

1. Time clocks when a match is running behind. However Greg commented that he doesn't think that would solve the problem, because they even had slow matches on the TV table. If players don't shoot at their hole, it drags the games out no matter what clock you use.
2. Limit racking time (this was less of a One Pocket problem, but was a problem in 9-Ball)
3. He doesn't want players jumping the cue ball off the table to prevent an opponent from scoring a hanging ball.
4. He likes the idea of a re-racking when a player makes a ball on the break in One Pocket because it is fairer (even though it does not speed up the game).
5. He doesn't like players asking to have a ball or the cue ball picked up and cleaned (unless there is some obvious debris).
6. Suggestions???

The bottom line is they need to come up with some agreeable clear cut ways to prevent such serious over-runs in the One Pocket. There was also some concern that the Wednesday night slot for the HOF dinner was a factor in the delay.

So Greg is looking for suggestions... I have my own thoughts, but this opening post is basically to reflect Greg's concerns as he spoke them to me.

He also is interested in general DCC feedback and suggestions for how the event can be improved. He also commented he is planning to increase the prize funds based on the increased turnouts they are getting.

 

[NH Steve]

I studied the One Pocket tournament results round by round myself to see what I could learn from that. They had about 393 players for One Pocket, which followed/overlapped with 471 in Banks and 363 in 9-Ball, not to mention the Big Foot invitational and the Straight Pool challenge.

Essentially it looked to me like They got through rounds 1-5 of One Pocket over the first three days -- Sunday, Monday & Tuesday. On Wednesday (the day of the HOF dinner as well as the first day for 363 9-Ball players) they only played through one round (6) in One Pocket, and that round was only 31 matches. As I looked at round 6, there were 6 players in that round that attended the dinner -- Daulton, Brumback, JJ, our own Col Bille and Jason Chance. Two of them (Chance and Bille) got knocked out that round. I had given the tournament desk the names of HOF attendees the morning of Wednesday, so they had it when they scheduled round 6 matches.

To me, the obvious problem was not the HOF dinner at all, it was that the tournament desk prioritized the tables for first round 9-Ball matches that day, so all they played in One Pocket the entire day of Wednesday was one round -- round 6, which left 42 players for Thursday AM. Thursday they played 4 rounds of One Pocket -- 7, 8, 9 and 10, reducing the field for Friday AM down to 9 players. Furthermore, I don't see anywhere that the tournament desk made any effort to put the short list of HOF dinner players into early Wednesday time slots to avoid the dinner holding up potential matches. I know both Jeremy and Frost did play shortly before the dinner (finishing after 6 PM so their matches actually ran into the start of the pre-dinner social). I also know Daulton and Brumback at least, both played their 6th round matches after the dinner -- Daulton playing his in his suit and tie and Brumback his with a pretty good buzz on lol.

To me they could have solved most of their One Pocket schedule problems by playing 3-4 rounds of One Pocket on Wednesday, like they ultimately did on Thursday. But the reason they didn't was that would have pushed back the 9-ball, which I believe also ran late (but sorry, I was not paying close attention to when the 9-ball finished and I could be wrong).

They also had a problem with slower players going deep in the One Pocket -- especially when those players were also in the 9-Ball. I noticed that Justin Bergman for example, had to play back to back to back in One Pocket so he fell a round or two behind in 9-ball on Thursday. Likewise Tony Chohan and maybe others.

I personally witnessed the last four shots of one match -- definitely critical shots, but still...) -- take at least 45 minutes, as both players took 5-10 minutes looking at each of their shots, and then both players also took their player breaks. I am not exagerating about the 45 minutes -- it might well have been longer.

I also never once witnessed anyone from the tournament desk ever say anything to any player or players in a match, that there was a time issue. They may have said something between matches, but I sure did not see a warning ever during a match. Of course, what are they going to say? "Please shoot a little quicker? Please don't knock the balls up table?" Maybe if they had something pre-determined that they could say or do, then they would. That's part of where your suggestions come in now...

 

[cincy_kid]

Very glad to see this post!

I am sure there will be plenty who know more about the actual running of tourneys that will give some good suggestions but coming strictly from a player's point of view and one who doesn't get a lot of play time throughout the year, the DCC gives me something to look forward to each year and it's a great event! I hope it continues to be the main event for one pocket competition for pros, amateurs and all of us in between.

That being said, it is so brutal to not have any idea when you are going to play in a given round. It could be 10 in the morning, 11 at night or any time in between. It's very hard to plan a day as far as playing, eating, socializing and sleeping enough to make sure you are solid for the next day of play.

I am not sure if a standard bracket style tourney would be any more efficient or not but if the time problem was fixed and you knew every day what time you were going to play in advance, that would fix about 95% of any issues I have with the format.

 

[lll]

one idea to speed things up might be at a designated time in a game the grady rules come into play
just a not thought thru idea

 

[cincy_kid]

How much extra time does the 10 ball and straight pool challenge eat up?

If they reduced it down to the main 3 events (banks, one pocket, 9b), would that save enough time to be worth losing the events?

EDIT - The question was about changes to the one pocket to make it faster, so my comments on the other games are kind of irrelevant.. sorry!

 

[gulfportdoc]

I think they could go to a double elimination format. Granted, a number of guys play in the banks who have no intention of buying back, but are simply buying themselves a pass for the entire DCC.

But if the entry were increased to accommodate two full flights, they may not get that much of an decrease in entry fee totals because most of the guys will still play anyway. I expect they'd lose a few in the banks, but most of the 1P guys would still play. I don't know about the 9 ball.

But double elim, with scheduled matches would probably pick up the pace, and lessen the load on the tournament desk.

~Doc

 

[NH Steve]

I don't know if it would make a difference, but maybe the buy back should be preemptively mandatory starting with the round leading up to the money round. I mean at that point you would thing everyone would buy back because it automatically advances you to the next round -- i.e. either into the money or into a higher payout round. In other words, at the end of round 5 (6 being in the money?) every player that has not yet bought back all need to at that time to continue in the tournament. 90-something percent must anyway, but it would at least eliminate any doubts or questions, and the worst that could happen is whoever won the tournament wasted a buy back. It's hard to imagine them minding since they take home 10G or so for winning lol.

 

[NH Steve]

How much extra time does the 10 ball and straight pool challenge eat up?

If they reduced it down to the main 3 events (banks, one pocket, 9b), would that save enough time to be worth losing the events?

I don't think those make very much difference, except that certain players get caught shuffling. By Tuesday for the Banks late rounds & finals the 10' table is gone -- so the 10-ball must be finished Monday night, so I don't see it as an issue.

I do believe this year they did not a have a Straight Pool playoff exactly because of the clusterf**k of scheduling that was happening at that time (Wed and/or Thursday, I am not sure). So they finished based on their high runs rather than a head-to-head playoff.

 

[stevelomako]

So they pretty much skipped an entire day of one pocket...and can't figure out why it ran an extra day!



Even from the Executive West days, they're cramming too much into not enough days.

Now we go over to the casino with less tables and add more special events and they wonder why things go longer???

Not to mention it's not spectator friendly at all at the casino.


Either:

1-Add more tables
2-Add more days to the entire event
3-Find another venue that can handle it

You might have to restructure the Accustats area. There's too much down time in that area that uses too much real estate.



Another thing I don't know why they haven't done it yet, is just have the entry fee include the buy-back right off the bat.

They could draw the first TWO rounds immediately and it eliminates the waiting around to see if people are going to buy-back which the vast majority do anyway.

I know there's way too much down time...each round...of each event...that causes everything to go longer than it should.



If they're going to keep it in a place that's too small (pool table and hotel rooms) and way too expensive for the average player/spectator (hotel rooms) they have to change something.

 

[jrhendy]

There is a shot clock on table #1 for streaming, maybe there is a way to incorporate something on all the one pocket matches to speed things up.

 

[one pocket guy]

If the buy backs slow everything. How bout a giant clock hanging by the scrolling screen. You have 20 minutes to buy back or your gone.

 

[sappo]

We have discussed this topic on onepocket.org quite a bit -- sometimes theoretically and sometimes for real situations. Well, this one is real and it is one of our favorite events -- the Derby City One Pocket division. This year the One Pocket ran way past its scheduled finals slot of Thursday night, into the late hours of Friday night. I don't think I've seen it fall a whole day behind like that since back at the Exec West.

I spoke with Greg Sullivan and he wants us to talk about this, along with other rule changes he is thinking about for Derby City, and come up with suggestions (that they might or might not decide to incorporate).

1. Time clocks when a match is running behind. However Greg commented that he doesn't think that would solve the problem, because they even had slow matches on the TV table. If players don't shoot at their hole, it drags the games out no matter what clock you use.
2. Limit racking time (this was less of a One Pocket problem, but was a problem in 9-Ball)
3. He doesn't want players jumping the cue ball off the table to prevent an opponent from scoring a hanging ball.
4. He likes the idea of a re-racking when a player makes a ball on the break in One Pocket because it is fairer (even though it does not speed up the game).
5. He doesn't like players asking to have a ball or the cue ball picked up and cleaned (unless there is some obvious debris).
6. Suggestions???

The bottom line is they need to come up with some agreeable clear cut ways to prevent such serious over-runs in the One Pocket. There was also some concern that the Wednesday night slot for the HOF dinner was a factor in the delay.

So Greg is looking for suggestions... I have my own thoughts, but this opening post is basically to reflect Greg's concerns as he spoke them to me.

He also is interested in general DCC feedback and suggestions for how the event can be improved. He also commented he is planning to increase the prize funds based on the increased turnouts they are getting.

Steve, Id like to comment on what happens if a ball is pocketed on the break. I firmly believe the ball should stay down and the breaking player should continue to shoot. Players put a lot of time practicing their break and when they hit a perfect break they should not be penalized.

When a player breaks and scratches off the corner ball he takes the worst of it. When a player hit a weak break and a ball moves towards his opponents hole and then the opponent makes that ball and continues to run balls the breaker takes the worst of it. It doesn't seem correct that the breaking player's good break is penalized and his weak breaks have to stand. keith

 

[cincy_kid]

Steve, Id like to comment on what happens if a ball is pocketed on the break. I firmly believe the ball should stay down and the breaking player should continue to shoot. Players put a lot of time practicing their break and when they hit a perfect break they should not be penalized.

When a player breaks and scratches off the corner ball he takes the worst of it. When a player hit a weak break and a ball moves towards his opponents hole and then the opponent makes that ball and continues to run balls the breaker takes the worst of it. It doesn't seem correct that the breaking player's good break is penalized and his weak breaks have to stand. keith

Hey Keith, if they were to switch to counting the ball made on the break, I think they have to go back to opponent racks then. If you get to rack your own and keep making a ball on the break, that may get suspicious!

Just saying...good idea and may help speed things up, but they have to go back to old school of opponent racks for you in my opinion (which would be ok with me),..

 

[baby huey]

I don't understand why this years One Pocket event took so long to play? In previous years it always was played down to the final four or five by wednesday night? The same players are still playing and forcing the game in another direction with rules changes to speed up play, at this point doesn't make sense. The fields and number of tables allocated to the events did not change? Additionally the 14.1 Challenge was also impacted to the point where I have heard they are not going to sponsor it again next year. Something happened this year strangely that created this backup.

 

[rnewkirk]

If the buy backs slow everything. How bout a giant clock hanging by the scrolling screen. You have 20 minutes to buy back or your gone.

Last time I attended DCC, I paid my buyback with my entry fees. Saved standing in line.

Went once at Executive West and once at casino. Plan on going next year.

 

[NH Steve]

Steve, Id like to comment on what happens if a ball is pocketed on the break. I firmly believe the ball should stay down and the breaking player should continue to shoot. Players put a lot of time practicing their break and when they hit a perfect break they should not be penalized.

When a player breaks and scratches off the corner ball he takes the worst of it. When a player hit a weak break and a ball moves towards his opponents hole and then the opponent makes that ball and continues to run balls the breaker takes the worst of it. It doesn't seem correct that the breaking player's good break is penalized and his weak breaks have to stand. keith

I'm with you. I understand it for a gambling session -- fine. But does anyone know of a DCC match that was overly swayed by balls made on the break? As in more than once in the match by the same player?

 

[crabbcatjohn]

They also had a computer malfunction that set them back 45 min. And of course Col Billies 5 hr match probably set everybody back a day...lol JK bud...

You HAVE to keep the one pocket moving no matter what. Obviously the one pocket matches take the longest of the three tournament matches so you have to prioritize them in your scheduling. You can't take the day off or miss a beat... I like the idea of still having the buy back, but in order to buy back you have to do it with your entry... save A LOT of hassle and probably raise more entry fee funds AND allows them to redraw faster. If a player turns in his match late like after a 5 hour match it should be evident and the next match goes on the clock. That way you have very few clock tables you have to wrangle, and you penalize someone who slow plays every match.

Yes, as you are racking your own and these are short races you need to re rack if a ball is made on the break.

 

[ChicagoFats]

I don't understand why this years One Pocket event took so long to play? In previous years it always was played down to the final four or five by wednesday night? The same players are still playing and forcing the game in another direction with rules changes to speed up play, at this point doesn't make sense. The fields and number of tables allocated to the events did not change? Additionally the 14.1 Challenge was also impacted to the point where I have heard they are not going to sponsor it again next year. Something happened this year strangely that created this backup.

Yeah... I don't understand why they didn't at least have the top two high runs play the 14.1. They just cancelled the whole thing. At least they would have had something on accu-stats even if only one match.

 

[LSJohn]

Raise the entry fee to $200
Make it double elimination
Ball on the break counts
All matches not completed in 2 1/2 hours need to be individually monitored and time-clocked by Diamond personnel or their appointees: one minute shot clock with warning at 10 seconds. There are plenty of people there who are known by Diamond to be responsible that could be appointed/volunteer.

 

[sappo]

Hey Keith, if they were to switch to counting the ball made on the break, I think they have to go back to opponent racks then. If you get to rack your own and keep making a ball on the break, that may get suspicious!

Just saying...good idea and may help speed things up, but they have to go back to old school of opponent racks for you in my opinion (which would be ok with me),..

I personally like the breaker racks and his opponent has the right to inspect the rack and ask for a rerack if he's not satisfied with it. I guess it doesn't matter if the opponent racks and the breaker has the right to inspect and ask for a repack. But once both players are satisfied with the rack, if a ball goes in it should count.