Managing One Pocket tournament time --DCC edition

[crabbcatjohn]

I think it is clear most of use would like to see solutions that do not fundamentally alter the game we love. So let's start with those ideas:

What about tweaks to the buy back rules, so any issues of waiting for buy backs are eliminated, speeding up the round by round drawings

As soon as you have certain players running behind, their next matches go on more closely supervised tables near the TD desk, with certain ?TBD? measures to speed those matches.

Shorter races for those players until they are caught up???
Shot clocks for those players (that limit the time per shot for each player)?
Chess style clocks for both players (that limit the overall time for the match)?

More than one round of One Pocket on the first day of 9-ball.

Extend the playing day one extra start time -- especially for players who are behind -- make them get caught up THAT NIGHT.

Other ideas I missed??

What happens if your assigned table is running late? We waited 40 mins for the table that was assigned to me and Dee.

 

[sappo]

I think it is clear most of use would like to see solutions that do not fundamentally alter the game we love. So let's start with those ideas:

What about tweaks to the buy back rules, so any issues of waiting for buy backs are eliminated, speeding up the round by round drawings

As soon as you have certain players running behind, their next matches go on more closely supervised tables near the TD desk, with certain ?TBD? measures to speed those matches.

Shorter races for those players until they are caught up???
Shot clocks for those players (that limit the time per shot for each player)?
Chess style clocks for both players (that limit the overall time for the match)?

More than one round of One Pocket on the first day of 9-ball.

Extend the playing day one extra start time -- especially for players who are behind -- make them get caught up THAT NIGHT.

Other ideas I missed??

Maybe everyone is approaching this topic the wrong way. Maybe instead of changing the way the game is played, its the 2 players responsibility to keep pace. What if a time limit was established for a match and it was the players responsibility to finish the match within that timeframe. If one of the players is delaying the match with slow play its the responsibility of the other player to speak up and ask his competitor to speed up play. if he doesn't pick up the pace his opponent should call for the tournament director to take action.

The penalty, should the match runs past the established time limit is both players are out of the tournament and their entry fee is returned to them. This rule would also eliminate some of those very long up table games that drag on forever because both players will realize that uptable safety after safety puts their tournament lives on the line.

 

[Island Drive]

Bill's rule: After 3.5 hours of play, all games remaining shall be 11 ball one pocket. 10 ball rack, with one on the bottom rail in the middle.

Better yet. When it reaches X amount of time. Sudden death....Spot Shots from the kitchen.

 

[NH Steve]

What happens if your assigned table is running late? We waited 40 mins for the table that was assigned to me and Dee.

I'm very surprised they assigned you a table that still had a match running. I had always assumed they made the table assignments based on table availability -- but either I am mistaken or they made a mistake thinking that table was available.

 

[NH Steve]

Maybe everyone is approaching this topic the wrong way. Maybe instead of changing the way the game is played, its the 2 players responsibility to keep pace. What if a time limit was established for a match and it was the players responsibility to finish the match within that timeframe. If one of the players is delaying the match with slow play its the responsibility of the other player to speak up and ask his competitor to speed up play. if he doesn't pick up the pace his opponent should call for the tournament director to take action.

The penalty, should the match runs past the established time limit is both players are out of the tournament and their entry fee is returned to them. This rule would also eliminate some of those very long up table games that drag on forever because both players will realize that uptable safety after safety puts their tournament lives on the line.

A player that is about to be eliminated anyway might not be motivated by that -- but their opponent might be very motivate -- and very upset at the player that appears to be dragging them under, since you are talking about kicking both players out.

The "chess clocks" might address that in a way: if it is a three hour match allotment, each player gets 1-1/2 hours for their own aggregate shooting time, toggled by the chess clock -- when a player finishes their shot, they hit the switch to restart their opponent's time & their stop their own. Back and forth they go until someone either wins the match or they run out of time. But the chess clocks only penalize the player that runs out of time, not the one that has managed their own clock.

The chess clocks might have their own unintended consequences. One of which is creating the opportunity for the player who has lots of extra time left, to push balls up table in an effort to slow down the style of game -- since you can win by forcing your opponent to run out of time. They might do this if they were behind in the match in terms of score. I don't think that is what we are after either.

 

[Cory in dc]

A player that is about to be eliminated anyway might not be motivated by that -- but their opponent might be very motivate -- and very upset at the player that appears to be dragging them under, since you are talking about kicking both players out.

The "chess clocks" might address that in a way: if it is a three hour match allotment, each player gets 1-1/2 hours for their own aggregate shooting time, toggled by the chess clock -- when a player finishes their shot, they hit the switch to restart their opponent's time & their stop their own. Back and forth they go until someone either wins the match or they run out of time. But the chess clocks only penalize the player that runs out of time, not the one that has managed their own clock.

The chess clocks might have their own unintended consequences. One of which is creating the opportunity for the player who has lots of extra time left, to push balls up table in an effort to slow down the style of game -- since you can win by forcing your opponent to run out of time. They might do this if they were behind in the match in terms of score. I don't think that is what we are after either.

Chess clocks seem like a mixed bag for this reason, and they might even backfire and slow tournaments down. The maximum match time would surely decrease, but the average match time could increase as players stall to run their opponents out of time!

 

[Kybanks]

I am willing to bet that a large number of matches are completed before the 2 hr allotted time slot given. For example 4:00 pm match took 45 minutes but the next match on that table doesn't start till 6:00pm. There is an 1 hr and 15 minutes that is wasted because the other 2 players won't be getting to that table until 5 minutes till start time if they even show up on time at all. You want to speed up play? Start forfeiting guys who aren't there for there match on time. I couldn't tell you how many times I have waited for my opponent to show up 20 minutes late. Also when matches are completed early its on the TDs to get the next match on that table started.

 

[Island Drive]

Large battery operated clocks in room area, similar to ones used at swimming pool events. Located where ALL players can see em, might have a couple 4 in the main room.

Have a DCC employee on the upper floor at all times relay match scores, oversee shots give em a desk area.

sSlow pPlay....
If your opponent IS slow playing....you must NICELY.... let your opponent KNOW they are too slow, with a warning....if it happens again your opponent must go to the TD desk, hand over his player ID/lanyard... to retrieve a clock.

HOF Banquet, should not be in the way of play.


Tell Greg, I truly enjoyed NO jump sticks for 9 ball.

A huge time saver for 9 ball, and its good for the game and the event, see below.

9 ball....WINNER BREAKS, LOSER RACKS.
RACKER CAN RACK 1 BALL ANYWHERE ON THE PAPER.

Rackers job, rack em tight, find a legal spot for the one ball, on the foot spot where your opponent is NOT pocketing balls on his break....''all the time"....

When Your racking your losing, it's a position all it's own in 9 ball. The subservient position of being the racker against the dominate postion of the breaker should not be toyed with. Top flight rotation pool is an aggressive game, it's style should not be diminished thru rule changes that ''take away'' from it's beauty and the moments they create.

Racking 9-ball;
Your goal ....PLAY FAIR and....when your on the ''receiving end''....stop the bleeding, rack em tight....& get back to the table ASAP.

 

[baby huey]

I suspect Greg Sullivan and staff will look long and hard at this years fumble and that we will see some minor changes, if any, to their program. Remember they like having 400 players playing One Pocket and they want to keep that field size.

 

[stevelomako]

I suspect Greg Sullivan and staff will look long and hard at this years fumble and that we will see some minor changes, if any, to their program. Remember they like having 400 players playing One Pocket and they want to keep that field size.

I know Steve Booth has talked to Greg which is why he started this thread. Greg and I talked for almost an hour a few days ago about things at the DCC and will be talking again.

You're correct about wanting and keeping as many players as possible which is why he wanted input from players on this site.


Although, so far everybody is focused and all over the place with changing the complete game...like you find with bar room 8 ball all the the country.



Personally I think things have gotten out of hand a little with so many new threads started about changing the game to this, changing the game to that and not one person has tried any of it out yet.



I don't think there's anything wrong with the rules or how the game is played right now.



The main problem is the few matches that run long and what to do about them when they do as to not affect the entire length of the tournament.

To start, I think you can identify most of the main culprits that "play slow" ahead of time and just make sure their matches are at the beginning of the rounds instead of the last grouping or two so it doesn't impact the next rounds draw by waiting for them to be done with their match.




I think it's better to start from the beginning and work forward instead of from the end and work backwards.

For example:
All these proposed "new games" and "new rules" still might and probably will have, games and matches that take a long time. Then you're back in the same boat you were before.

 

[Island Drive]

No Buy Back

No Buy Back

Like Cincy said, make it a true dbl elim event. $200 entry per division. Times could then be posted waaaaay ahead of time.

 

[stevelomako]

Like Cincy said, make it a true dbl elim event. $200 entry per division. Times could then be posted waaaaay ahead of time.

Per conversation with Greg Sullivan, the buy backs will stay, so nix any double elimination ideas.

 

[Island Drive]

Well, I wonder what's gonna give? Ya never know. It's gotta be a simple fix.

 

[NH Steve]

Per conversation with Greg Sullivan, the buy backs will stay, so nix any double elimination ideas.

I was assuming that, which is why I never suggested eliminating them. I was however asking about different ways they might be managed so they are not part of the problems of scheduling. But I guess my first question should have been, how much are the buy backs part of the scheduling problems at DCC?

My understanding is that the Grady rule has been used in at least one of the regular CA tournaments. I have heard no reports of darmoose's rule being used.

 

[lll]

duplicate post from me in the grady rules thread .......
.................
i think a game clock and match clock would be more helpfull than a shot clock
and easier to use/enforce with no referee.
a reasonable time is determined for game time and match time
right before the break the clock is started for the game time
and right before the first game the the match time clock is started
once the allotted time is up
we need to discuss whats next
my thoughts are
after the clock rings
you have 10? 15? minutes to finish the game...or whoever is ahead wins
next game each goes to 7 balls or 6 balls
this for the most part doesnt change the game by arbitrarily spotting balls
or changing the foul rule
if the players go over the match time same 10-15 minute "grace " period and whoever is ahead wins
next game each go to 6 or 5
final thought
if the first game goes over and the second game (playing to 7/6 ) puts the average time back on schedule (time for 2 games ) then the 3rd game is played back to a regular game
this way one long game doesnt change all the rest of the games automatically

 

[jalapus logan]

I've not read the entirety of this thread, but how about just raising the entrry and buy back high enough to weed out some of the dead fish like me. Say, $300 or $400 per? That may shorten the field enough but still get plenty of players?

 

[stevelomako]

I've not read the entirety of this thread, but how about just raising the entrry and buy back high enough to weed out some of the dead fish like me. Say, $300 or $400 per? That may shorten the field enough but still get plenty of players?

Greg will not do that.

He wants it affordable so anyone can play and if they beat him up on just the entry for the banks for the event pass and don't buy back he's good with it.

 

[baby huey]

I run nine and ten ball tournaments at my poolroom and initially I limited the fields to 32 players. Then as the tournaments became more popular, more players wanted to participate. These events are handicapped. I expanded the fields to 64 players and filled up. Guess what happened, the complaints then became that the tournament took too long to run. My only options were to reduce the number of games to win the match and increase the handicaps to move the event along. More blowback came in that players complained that they weren't getting enough value for their entry fee's and the handicaps were too severe. I have 15 tables to run the tournaments and thought long and hard about what to do. Finally I just restricted the tournament size to 40 players and encouraged players to sign up early. Players like the large fields. Its kinda like going to a concert; you want to feel like you are participating in a happening event. I suspect DCC has the same problems and tinkering too much may cause blowback and reduce player participation. There is an old saying, "NO GOOD DEED SHOULD GO UNPUNISHED." I think some things can be done to speed things along without changing the game too much. They can limit the time a player has to report late for his/her match from 15 minutes to 5 minutes. Limit breaks. No practice once the match time and table has been set. If a match has exceeded say 2 hours a referee should be available to monitor slow play vs. long matches based on skill levels of players. And warn slow players to shoot or face penalties such as ball in hand for the opponent when one minute has elapsed in their inning. Remember slow players are not necessarily less skilled players. And, they need more room for additional tables. Good luck with that.

 

[Cory in dc]

I run nine and ten ball tournaments at my poolroom and initially I limited the fields to 32 players. Then as the tournaments became more popular, more players wanted to participate. These events are handicapped. I expanded the fields to 64 players and filled up. Guess what happened, the complaints then became that the tournament took too long to run. My only options were to reduce the number of games to win the match and increase the handicaps to move the event along. More blowback came in that players complained that they weren't getting enough value for their entry fee's and the handicaps were too severe. I have 15 tables to run the tournaments and thought long and hard about what to do. Finally I just restricted the tournament size to 40 players and encouraged players to sign up early. Players like the large fields. Its kinda like going to a concert; you want to feel like you are participating in a happening event. I suspect DCC has the same problems and tinkering too much may cause blowback and reduce player participation. There is an old saying, "NO GOOD DEED SHOULD GO UNPUNISHED." I think some things can be done to speed things along without changing the game too much. They can limit the time a player has to report late for his/her match from 15 minutes to 5 minutes. Limit breaks. No practice once the match time and table has been set. If a match has exceeded say 2 hours a referee should be available to monitor slow play vs. long matches based on skill levels of players. And warn slow players to shoot or face penalties such as ball in hand for the opponent when one minute has elapsed in their inning. Remember slow players are not necessarily less skilled players. And, they need more room for additional tables. Good luck with that.

I think it was Yogi Berra who said, "Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded."

 

[Island Drive]

I'm not sure how much if any the buy back itself delays things. I get the feeling it does delay the draws each round though because you always hear them announcing the buyback deadlines. I'm going to ask someone down there. Maybe the simplest thing is to give players the option when they first sign up -- and no option after that. So those who want to just fire one barrel can do so. I don't know if that would effect moneys at all or not. A lot of players probably know at the start if they are going to buy back or not.

But if it indeed would save drawing times and improve scheduling then it's certainly worth considering!!

How about making the one pocket event a dbl elimination fixed entry. $200

9 Ball and 9 ball banks, keeps the buybacks in place.

In 9 ball winner breaks and no jump cues. Nice touch Greg Sullivan.

In rotation pool, I'd also like to see loser racks, winner breaks. This is an area of real concern for this game. The way 9 ball is played in tournaments, its gotten to the point where the rules ''changed the game'' for the worse.

Here's another BAD promoter/game rule;

Open break on 8 ball if you make any ball, vendor implemented rule, NOT a Player rule, or a rule representing the game of 8 ball.

Here's another;

Beaker racks was bourne outta the McChesney 9 ball tour years, John had enough racking for those matches that became ''problematic'' because of loose/bad racks.

This rule was not put in place from the players, it's the promoters call to stop whining.:frus