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  • #46
    I truly believe that every one is responsible for knowing there ball count. That being said in this case in a friendly situation I am all for replacing cue ball if it is equitable to both players.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by LSJohn View Post
      I disagree. I'd say that vastly more unintended consequences come from making one-size-fits-all rules/laws that only approximately fit an array similar situations and circumstances.
      Yeah, well, not surprising. That's the other thing about O-PIN-YA-NATING, ain't nobody givin up or changing theirs.

      You're in good company tho , we got a whole country full of opinionaters that look for any opportunity to ignore rules or laws, no matter how big or small.

      JMHO
      The early bird may get the worm...but the second mouse gets the cheese...Shutin@urholeisOVERATED.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by beatle View Post
        player declares himself a winner and starts putting balls on the table.

        opponent falls for this whether it was intentional or not it doesnt matter.

        player b ends up losing the game. wtf. is wrong with that you say.

        well, all rulings should go against the one who benefits from shooting an angle to win.

        other wise if we go by strict rules then it pays to do this exact thing on opponents trying to get them to make a forfeit move.
        Actually, this is a totally legit strategy. If one is shooting and just pocketed the 6th or 7th ball, might as well just declare that you've won the game just to see if you catch your opponent asleep. It's fine per the rules, so WTH??? Of course, I'd hate myself for doing this, so I won't. Nevertheless, for the gotcha types, it's within the rules, so what the hell???

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by NH Steve View Post
          The jumped cue ball rule is one I would not mind seeing go. I don't think just declaring it would fly at high stakes or tournaments though -- but that is just my personal opinion and many others of you have way way more experience at both of those than me. I would be inclined just to eliminate it as an option. I.e, either dig it out, or follow it in.

          But if we do that, how do you write it? I mean a jump shot is legal with your playing cue, and it is only a common foul to have the cue ball jump the table. Fine, if the object ball goes in the hole you can still have it count for the opponent (that rule change is easy), but what if the object ball also jumps the table? Or better yet, only the object ball jumps the table? With either of those as possibilities, you would have to ban the jump too or it would still be tempting to try it.

          I'm just wondering specifically how you would re-write the rule to prevent jumping attempts.
          I don’t like declaring it. It’s not the worst, but you’d get guys declaring it when they are jacked up on a rail or arguably corner hooked. I don’t think it would work.

          I think the best way to really handle much of this stuff is change the rules completely, under that Darmoose style of play.

          But, to play under current rules My instinct tells me the best way to handle this would be to penalize balls off the table to a much greater extent. I’d work my way backwards to try and figure out the penalty and make the guy not want to take it. A two or three ball penalty doesn’t seem out of line to me at all, maybe even more. Just do whatever you need to do to make sure no one ever wants to do it. The nice thing is balls never go off the table in one pocket otherwise, so we’d never get the innocent guy who accidentally just lost an entire slew of balls.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by darmoose View Post
            we got a whole country full of opinionaters that look for any opportunity to ignore rules or laws, no matter how big or small.
            Really? A country full seems like a lot. Income tax, speed limit, immigration. Those are the only ones I can think of that involve more than relatively few.

            But anyway, I'm glad to be in good company... at least according to one of our local opinionaters.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by NH Steve View Post
              The jumped cue ball rule is one I would not mind seeing go. I don't think just declaring it would fly at high stakes or tournaments though -- but that is just my personal opinion and many others of you have way way more experience at both of those than me. I would be inclined just to eliminate it as an option. I.e, either dig it out, or follow it in.

              But if we do that, how do you write it? I mean a jump shot is legal with your playing cue, and it is only a common foul to have the cue ball jump the table. Fine, if the object ball goes in the hole you can still have it count for the opponent (that rule change is easy), but what if the object ball also jumps the table? Or better yet, only the object ball jumps the table? With either of those as possibilities, you would have to ban the jump too or it would still be tempting to try it.

              I'm just wondering specifically how you would re-write the rule to prevent jumping attempts.
              I believe you would have to be specific and not allow, and in this situation only, that a jumped cue ball or the object off the table in executing taking out the hanging ob in opponents pocket is not allowed, because there are so many other jumping scenarios that are just part of the game.

              For instance; jumping into the the object ball and making the cue ball jump over another ball so you can get position, jump masse' shots, on close proximity shots you can make the cb jump into the object ball which forces the cb over the object ball, and I did an impossible bank without getting a kiss by jumping into an ob that was close to rail, the cb landed on the ob and pooped up and the ob went underneath the cb and cross side banked, and then of course there is just the straight jump shot over the ob. Oh! and also you can jump into an object ball and then the object jumps and clears the side of another object ball and now goes into your pocket!

              So in writing the rule I would surmise that if the either the cue ball or object jumps off the table when the object ball is nearly hanging or hanging within the opponents pocket then the object ball counts for the opponent! Whitey

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by NH Steve View Post
                But if we do that, how do you write it? I mean a jump shot is legal with your playing cue, and it is only a common foul to have the cue ball jump the table. Fine, if the object ball goes in the hole you can still have it count for the opponent (that rule change is easy), but what if the object ball also jumps the table? Or better yet, only the object ball jumps the table? With either of those as possibilities, you would have to ban the jump too or it would still be tempting to try it.

                I'm just wondering specifically how you would re-write the rule to prevent jumping attempts.
                ....well, if this is a serious discussion that could maybe, possibly, potentially, almost bring about some change to resolve this problem (or any other that can be identified), I got some thoughts. How do we write a rule to prevent jumping attempts? WE CAN"T. (you already knew that)

                ....is this body a rule writing body for the game of one pocket? Is there a point to having these discussions? If so, I got an idea.

                Adopt one simple little rule that deals with NOTHING regarding how we play one pocket, other than how we keep score. And while we are doing that, if you wanna eliminate the shooter from deliberately flying balls off the table, simply don't allow the exception that I described for when either player reaches the hill (seven balls). PROBLEM FIXED.

                Byproducts for free: faster games across the board, no need for game or match clocks, no need to hoard a cache of pennies to weigh your pockets down, oh, and no more going backwards (changing the game to favor the better player).

                Originally posted by El Chapo View Post
                I think the best way to really handle much of this stuff is change the rules completely, under that Darmoose style of play.
                BRILLIANT
                The early bird may get the worm...but the second mouse gets the cheese...Shutin@urholeisOVERATED.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by gulfportdoc View Post
                  Rule 10.1 doesn't really apply here. The non-shooting player did nothing on his on volition. He was acting on information attested to by the shooting player. It would have been a concession only if the non-shooting player decided on his own that the shooter was out, and then subsequently picked up or raked balls.

                  In this example the shooting player was wrong on two counts. He mistakenly announced that he was out, then he removed balls from his opponent's pockets. His actions caused the opponent to believe that the shooting player was out, and to pick up the cueball. Obviously the shooting player should have removed balls from his own pocket in order to demonstrate that he was out.

                  In a formal tournament game it should be ruled loss of game against the shooting player. In a private match, if the non-shooting player was willing to replace the cueball, then I think most contestants would simply continue the game.

                  ~Doc
                  Is it improper to remove balls from your opponents pockets when the game is perceived to be over? According to the rules, yes it is... But if you don’t help with picking up the balls after a game is completed, ( common courtesy) you’re considered a jerk...
                  So, in matches played on non ball return tables, most players use their side pocket as storage for their excess balls.. This is commonplace at Bogies, and I’m fairly sure in other parts of the country as well...

                  So after every game, it’s fair to say that both players will begin emptying pockets from which ever side of the table they happen to be on when the out ball is made... or as in this example, perceived to be made... again, common courtesy...

                  There are probably numerous “things” we do outside of the strict interpretation of the rules on a daily basis, and the only time we go to the “book” is when something controversial happens, and then we find need to scrutinize the written rule, which may or may not have application in that particular example, or is vague, or can be twisted in a lawyerly way to fit whosever purpose...

                  Abiding by strict rules is necessary in a sterile environment, but in a private friendly gambling match, finding a fair and an acceptable solution for both players seems more appropriate...

                  I agree with Doc in his judgement of initial fault, however I find it hard to punish the shooting player for reasons of #1, removing balls from his opponents pockets, #2, erroneously declaring he was out... simply because what he did wasn’t “taking a shot” he was just doing what anyone else would do when they believed they were out. And of course, he didn’t touch any of the balls that were still in play, So, even though he initiated the problem, he can’t legally be punished...

                  And understanding that it’s common courtesy to help retrieve balls after the completion of every game, it’s very hard to find fault with the non shooting player picking up the cue ball after taking all the balls out of his opponents pockets...Even though under the written rule, he’s the one that made the violation...

                  I believe a good lawyer could make a case against either player here...
                  Kinda like a cat chasing his tail ain’t it!

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Jeff sparks View Post
                    Is it improper to remove balls from your opponents pockets when the game is perceived to be over? According to the rules, yes it is... But if you don’t help with picking up the balls after a game is completed, ( common courtesy) you’re considered a jerk...
                    So, in matches played on non ball return tables, most players use their side pocket as storage for their excess balls.. This is commonplace at Bogies, and I’m fairly sure in other parts of the country as well...

                    So after every game, it’s fair to say that both players will begin emptying pockets from which ever side of the table they happen to be on when the out ball is made... or as in this example, perceived to be made... again, common courtesy...

                    There are probably numerous “things” we do outside of the strict interpretation of the rules on a daily basis, and the only time we go to the “book” is when something controversial happens, and then we find need to scrutinize the written rule, which may or may not have application in that particular example, or is vague, or can be twisted in a lawyerly way to fit whosever purpose...

                    Abiding by strict rules is necessary in a sterile environment, but in a private friendly gambling match, finding a fair and an acceptable solution for both players seems more appropriate...

                    I agree with Doc in his judgement of initial fault, however I find it hard to punish the shooting player for reasons of #1, removing balls from his opponents pockets, #2, erroneously declaring he was out... simply because what he did wasn’t “taking a shot” he was just doing what anyone else would do when they believed they were out. And of course, he didn’t touch any of the balls that were still in play, So, even though he initiated the problem, he can’t legally be punished...

                    And understanding that it’s common courtesy to help retrieve balls after the completion of every game, it’s very hard to find fault with the non shooting player picking up the cue ball after taking all the balls out of his opponents pockets...Even though under the written rule, he’s the one that made the violation...

                    I believe a good lawyer could make a case against either player here...
                    Kinda like a cat chasing his tail ain’t it!
                    Lots of good thoughts about this question. I agree with Jeff's post above.

                    I think this simply comes down to "when is the game over"? Is it over when one player thinks he is out, or does it continue until it is verified? What does a player need to do to end the game?

                    I would opinionate that it ain't over until it is verified unless someone in the course of verifying, commits a foul. The non shooting player in this instance had every ability to count the balls he was removing from the shooters pockets and notify him that he still needed a ball. I think it is his responsibility to do so, if he is gonna remove balls from pockets and simultaneously move balls in play. He should let the shooter do the verifying, then he can help with the balls.
                    Last edited by darmoose; 02-28-2018, 09:36 AM. Reason: correction
                    The early bird may get the worm...but the second mouse gets the cheese...Shutin@urholeisOVERATED.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by jalapus logan View Post
                      What a great post. And F Starbucks!!!
                      Would you like an extra shot to go with that

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by darmoose View Post
                        Lots of good thoughts about this question. I agree with Jeff's post above.

                        I think this simply comes down to "when is the game over"? Is it over when one player thinks he is out, or does it continue until it is verified? What does a player need to do to end the game?

                        I would opinionate that it ain't over until it is verified unless someone in the course of verifying, commits a foul. The non shooting player in this instance had every ability to count the balls he was removing from the shooters pockets and notify him that he still needed a ball. I think it is his responsibility to do so, if he is gonna remove balls from pockets and simultaneously move balls in play. He should let the shooter do the verifying, then he can help with the balls.
                        I agree wholeheartedly, patience is a virtue, as they say. That doesn't mean that that's the way I would handle the situation but it does mean what is technically correct if it was needed to be handled from that perspective. Rules are often made to enforce when it is appropriate to do so, so as long as we have rules in force we have the ability to choose when we should and shouldn't enforce them. Isn't that politically correct?

                        Dr. Bill

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          I was playing 9 ball and running out.

                          I shot the 8 ball in and got straight on the 9.

                          My opponent says "that's good" so I swept the cue ball down table with my cue and grabbed the 9 ball to go rack for the next game.

                          My opponent says "foul!"

                          I said "You told me it was good!"

                          He says "I was just saying it was a good shot on the 8 ball"


                          So.......???

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by stevelomako View Post
                            I was playing 9 ball and running out.

                            I shot the 8 ball in and got straight on the 9.

                            My opponent says "that's good" so I swept the cue ball down table with my cue and grabbed the 9 ball to go rack for the next game.

                            My opponent says "foul!"

                            I said "You told me it was good!"

                            He says "I was just saying it was a good shot on the 8 ball"


                            So.......???
                            Steve, he said it was good, not that it was a good shot on the 8ball. If he was thinking that it was a good shot on the 8ball then he should have said exactly that, not something that implies that the game is over.

                            Dr. Bill

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by stevelomako View Post
                              I was playing 9 ball and running out.

                              I shot the 8 ball in and got straight on the 9.

                              My opponent says "that's good" so I swept the cue ball down table with my cue and grabbed the 9 ball to go rack for the next game.

                              My opponent says "foul!"

                              I said "You told me it was good!"

                              He says "I was just saying it was a good shot on the 8 ball"


                              So.......???
                              LOL, that's brutal..and if he was serious, that would be the last time I played that feller...life's too short!

                              On a similar topic, what I like is when you run out (one hole, 9b, whatever) and you shoot in the second to the last ball and play good shape for your out ball and the guy stands up from his seat and waits for you to shoot your out ball. He is doing this to imply the final shot is an easy one and you already "have the game won basically" so hurry up and shoot it...then you let your guard down, don't take it as serious and miss the game winning shot.

                              I know you should just stay focused and end it so if you miss its your own fault, but I do not like this move and if I wasn't stealing matching up with people that do that, I would surely not play them anymore either...

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Rules can be ambiguously written thus leading to interpretations. Modern day rules should try to be the lest non-ambiguous as possible for the simple reason there can not be a referee at a tournament table at all times, for tournaments are just huge now days. So essentially the rules being more in depth are making the players their own referee's.

                                In early years tournaments were generally sanctioned BCA 14.1 with a referee present, thus rules could be more general for much could be put on the referee during the match to make a determination.

                                But there are always going to be scenarios come up that there just is not a rule that exactly covers it specifically, and this can be categorized as this.

                                There are rules for concession of game, such as in this case, the gathering of balls for a re-rack! But in this case, the game was declared won, and the opponent participated in the gathering of balls. I have to rule in tournament play that the game was won. In non-tournament play between players then the players decide, if they can not then go by house rules, or simply replay the game.

                                Now if the shooter states the game is won and then starts gathering the balls, and the opponent says; "wait a minute you have not made 8 balls then the game is lost by the shooter"! Or since the opponent did not say wait a minute before he allowed the shooter to start gathering balls, is that then not a lost for the opponent waited to long to declare, so it was only natural that the shooter would gather the balls. Just another scenario that rules specifically may not cover! Whitey
                                Last edited by Dennis "Whitey" Young; 02-28-2018, 03:23 PM.

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