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  • What’s your take on this?

    Two object balls and the cue ball are the only balls left on the table after player A shoots in what he thinks is his game ball... He says to his opponent, “I’m out.” Then starts taking balls out of his opponents pockets, setting them on the table next to the pockets from where they came... His opponent ( player B ) is doing the same thing on the other side of the table, taking balls out of player A’s pockets and setting them on the table next to the pockets where they came from... When player B removes the last ball out of player A’s pocket with his right hand, he picks up the cue ball with his left hand and realizes player A isn’t out, he’s a ball short...

    What’s your ruling if you’re the TD at DCC...

    And would it be the same if it was a friendly match for $20.00 a game?

    This happened today at Bogies, I wasn’t sure how to rule on it when asked, but I did, of course one guy wasn’t happy as almost always is the case...

  • #2
    If it is a tournament and there are written rules that govern what happens if a player miscalls game completion then I suppose those rules apply.

    If there are no such rules, then it might be argued that Player B commits a foul by picking up the CB in the middle of Player A's turn. What is the penalty for intentionally disrupting the other player's inning by picking up the CB?

    On the other hand, since Player A started the problem by miscalling the situation, then equity would call for the CB to be put back on the table as close to where it was and it is still Player A's turn.

    Comment


    • #3
      If it’s a refereed match, then it seems to me that moving the cue ball because player A prematurely declared the game over has to work against player A, either by ball-in-hand foul (if the remaining 2 balls weren’t moved) or by loss of game. I have no authoritative basis for this whatsoever.

      If it’s just the boys playing for this week’s custody of the mad money, then of course it’s whoever’s loudest, as usual.

      pj
      chgo

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      • #4
        I believe player B has unwillingly conceded the game by picking up the cue ball, same as raking the balls. Even if he was duped into doing so by player A.

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        • #5
          Jeff, the first thing that comes to my mind is that there wasn't anything good that could happen to you in that position, as you noted. Were they asking if you knew a rule that would apply, or just to name a winner in the argument? You were in a trap, but at least one of the players should have known the correct score. Bad one pocket.
          If it ain't funny, it ain't much.

          Comment


          • #6
            If it was a $50 a game gambling match and both players agreed to abide by my decision - period - with no bitching and moaning afterwards...this would be my decision, for sure...

            Imo both players erred, and so I say these errors cancel out each other...therefore my decision is that nobody wins or loses the the game - it is to be replayed.

            - Ghost
            jrhendy: Ghost does come up with shots that others don't see.

            Comment


            • #7
              The guy that said I'm out , initiated anything that happened afterward, therefore it should all be on him.
              Player B can't foul after the fact unless he has been misled.
              Whether intentional or not.
              Last edited by Billy Jackets; 02-27-2018, 03:09 AM.

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              • #8
                If I had to call this I’d put the cb and ob back where they were in spots both players agreed upon. This happens every frame in snooker it’s not the end of the world. It’s different if it was a stack of balls or something of course, but it’s not here.

                Don’t think too much, that’s an easy and fair solution.

                Personally, if I was to punish someone somehow it would be the player who declared erroneously the game was over when it wasn’t and thus erred first. In other words, if he wasn’t such a Duffus or wasn’t such a cheat, this never woulda happened so it’s easy to call who needs to pay.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Frank Almanza View Post
                  I believe player B has unwillingly conceded the game by picking up the cue ball, same as raking the balls. Even if he was duped into doing so by player A.
                  I also agree with Frank on this one. Player A still has control of the table if, in fact, he's not out. With that understanding, he then should be allowed to evaluate the situation without any interference from player B. If player B impulsively intercedes with the evaluation process and picks up the cue ball he then concedes the game. It's not a pretty picture, but one that is technically correct. There is ..no replaying the game.. unless you're having a friendly type of competition. IMO

                  Dr. Bill

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    first of all
                    its really amazing BOTH players didnt know the score....
                    i think i agree with frank above
                    "I believe player B has unwillingly conceded the game by picking up the cue ball, same as raking the balls. Even if he was duped into doing so by player A."
                    that being said
                    putting the balls on the table to count them didnt disturb the balls on the table so no foul
                    declaring i won but not disturbing the balls on the table ,,,,no foul
                    picking up the cue ball ...foul at the least and concession of game
                    what i think is the fair thing is
                    put the balls back in the pockets
                    replace the cue ball as best as possible and continue play

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by wincardona View Post
                      I also agree with Frank on this one. Player A still has control of the table if, in fact, he's not out. With that understanding, he then should be allowed to evaluate the situation without any interference from player B. If player B impulsively intercedes with the evaluation process and picks up the cue ball he then concedes the game. It's not a pretty picture, but one that is technically correct. There is ..no replaying the game.. unless you're having a friendly type of competition. IMO

                      Dr. Bill
                      Let's say there were several more balls on the table and player B impulsively moves several of them figuring that player A was out but snaps and realizes that player A is not out, what then? where do you draw the line on the liability of player B's impulsive mistake? There really isn't a line..technically..it's a lack of good judgment on player B's part, and should be handled like the rules stipulate. Interference from player B.n calling interference on player B.

                      Of course, there are many ways this can be handled based on the type of relationship the two players have with one another, but "technically" I stand by my decision, interference on player B.


                      Dr. Bill

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                      • #12
                        This is interesting...

                        Our rules did make an attempt at laying groundwork to define this sort of mistaken interference at what is thought to be the end of a game. From our rules:
                        10. Keeping score

                        10.1 It is the responsibility of the shooting player to verify their own ball count as they approach their out ball, and the non-shooting player should avoid making comments about how many balls are needed. However, if the non-shooting player disturbs the balls, or breaks down their stick, or in the judgment of the acting official otherwise significantly disturbs the shooter in the assumption that the shooter is already out, such acts are considered a concession, and the shooter is considered to have won, regardless of whether a subsequent count reveals that more balls are needed. Likewise, if it can be verified that the non-shooting player’s mistaken statement of the number of balls needed leads directly to the shooter pocketing said number of balls and the assumption of the game being over, then the shooter wins, even if it is subsequently determined that the non-shooting player’s statement of balls needed was in error.

                        10.2 If the shooting player disturbs only one of the remaining balls on the table under their own mistaken assumption that the game is over, play continues under the terms of rule 6.1. However, if the shooting player disturbs two or more of the remaining balls in play on their own mistaken assumption that the game is over, then it is the shooting player that forfeits the game.

                        Players should refrain from moving or removing balls from their opponent’s pocket or scoring tray for any reason, except to spot a ball following a scratch or to sufficiently clear a pocket to permit entry of additional balls for an impending shot, and should only do so with respect for their opponent’s scoring preferences.
                        Just speaking from my heart, I believe I would have said replace the cue ball and carry on. Because the shooting player never did disturb any of the balls on the table, so they never violated the hard rule of disturbing "two or more" of the remaining balls (which would be loss of game for them). Both players disturbed the "soft rule" of reaching into the opponent's pocket. Player B took it one step further and picked up the cue ball. Technically that is only one ball disturbed so the balls go back and player A continues (granted, if it was player A). I don't think I would call a foul on player B because it was not their shot and there were extenuating circumstances. If player A had picked up the cue ball I would say they fouled, a ball spots and player B shoots. But simply based on both players seemingly having a hand in the kerfuffle so to speak, that would probably have been my off the top of my head ruling.

                        But looking closely at our official rules, there is a definite penalty for player 'B' disturbing any balls at all, thinking the game is over -- highlighted in red above. So technically it looks like by our rules as written, player 'B' has conceded, basically like Dr. Bill noted.
                        "One Pocket, it's an epidemic and there ain't no cure."
                        -- Strawberry Brooks

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Friendly competition for $20.00 a game... They both agreed to abide by whatever I decided before I would even listen to the problem... one guy I know for a long time, the other, 1st time I met him...

                          I listened and thought about what had happened and decided what I would do if I was involved as either player in this type of friendly competition...

                          I told the guy that said he was out, that he was wrong in saying that before counting the balls, however he didn’t disturb any of the remaining balls on the table, so technically he was ok within the written rules as I knew them...

                          I explained to the other guy that even though I sympathized with his error of picking up the cb, that he was at fault under the rules as I understood them... He should lose the game...

                          However, neither player had touched either one of the object balls, and both knew where the cb was before it was picked up, so I recommended replacing the cb and continuing the game to a conclusion... The player didn’t have a gimme shot at his out ball, so they agreed and continued... I sensed the player who picked up the cb was unhappy with the decision, but I thought it was fair and would rule that way again in a friendly game in the unlikely event this ever happened again...

                          I do believe in a tournament environment, he would have been even more unhappy, I think he would have lost the game...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            What’s your take on this?

                            Originally posted by Frank Almanza View Post
                            I believe player B has unwillingly conceded the game by picking up the cue ball, same as raking the balls. Even if he was duped into doing so by player A.


                            This is also my take. Lesson learned to count the balls before moving anything on the table. Sucks but even if it were me who did it I would accept it the loss and lesson.
                            Mitch needs to remember to play the score and that it's better to win than to look like a hero.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by wincardona View Post
                              I also agree with Frank on this one. Player A still has control of the table if, in fact, he's not out. With that understanding, he then should be allowed to evaluate the situation without any interference from player B. If player B impulsively intercedes with the evaluation process and picks up the cue ball he then concedes the game. It's not a pretty picture, but one that is technically correct. There is ..no replaying the game.. unless you're having a friendly type of competition. IMO

                              Dr. Bill
                              Conceding a game is inherently a willful act, therefore one can not unwillingly concede a game. Player B did nothing impulsive here, rather he acted on good faith that player A was correct, which he was not. Player A caused the confusion, player B finished it. It is my sense of fairness that the game should be replayed, so I agree with Ghost. If I were in either players shoes, I'd offer to replay the game. Just IMHO. Probably no hard and fast right or wrong here. Of course, if in tourney play, must go by the letter of the law, whatever that may be.

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