The simple simple truth

[LSJohn]

One of the many, many problems I see with the RR is if you do have slow players you actually guarantee them more games so you could make it even worse..lol.

Many? What else?

Maybe I'm missing something, but I strongly favor RR.

(The RR format most talked about would guarantee everyone 14 games and -- as far as I can tell -- take no longer. That looks a lot better to me than 5.)

[Scrzbill]

Many? What else?

Maybe I'm missing something, but I strongly favor RR.

(The RR format most talked about would guarantee everyone 14 games and -- as far as I can tell -- take no longer. That looks a lot better to me than 5.)

Everyone playing 14 games? Unless you use the Kentucky rule, where after two hours, everything behind the line spots, I don’t see matches going any faster. For the seniors event, if we had played any matches Thursday night, we could have had 4 for the final day. Myself, to have four for the final day would be my goal. Three, three. For arguments sake, for the members tournament. Start 9am Friday morning, play as many rounds as possible until 12 midnight. Saturday, the same. Same as the DCC. You start early and play late. Sunday, all the rail birds should be happy.

[LSJohn]

Everyone playing 14 games? Unless you use the Kentucky rule, where after two hours, everything behind the line spots, I don’t see matches going any faster. For the seniors event, if we had played any matches Thursday night, we could have had 4 for the final day. Myself, to have four for the final day would be my goal. Three, three. For arguments sake, for the members tournament. Start 9am Friday morning, play as many rounds as possible until 12 midnight. Saturday, the same. Same as the DCC. You start early and play late. Sunday, all the rail birds should be happy.

I'm OK with that, but the virtue of RR is that all the tables are in use all the time, and, you don't have to wait for rounds, you can play anyone in your group that you haven't played yet. It eliminates most of the down time between matches, and the empty table syndrome in the later rounds.

[crabbcatjohn]

First day with 32 players
Round 1: 32 players 16 matches (played on 16 tables)

Round 2: 16 winners to be played simultaneously with
16 one-loss players (total of 16 played on 16 tables)

First day with less than 16 tables, has to start early -- like noon -- because the above two rounds now become essentially four rounds, but no one is ever waiting for more than one match to finish so their second match can begin. With a noon start, taking advantage of open tables, other matches can carry on, so the worst that can happen is a player going back-to-back in successive long matches (has to be partly their own doing). These players will have to play out their round Friday night. That is very reasonable to ask -- everyone has to finish at least two matches that first day!!

2nd Day The tournament is now down to 8-12 tables at the most for the rest of the tournament, so from Round 3 on, it makes no difference whatsoever whether we are in a room with less than 16 tables or more. Saturday is likely to be a long day, with 4 rounds, so a preferred start time would be 10 AM.

Round 3: 8 players that won their one-loss match vs the 8 that lost their second round winner side match play 8 matches.

Round 4: 8 winner side players play 4 matches, starting as soon as tables from the one-loss round become available. As tables continue to become available, the 8 players in the one-loss side that won in Round 3 play their 4 matches. Since these matches play simultaneously with the winner side matches, it amounts to one round for timing purposes.

Round 5: The 4 players that won their one-loss match vs the 4 that lost their winner side match play their 4 matches. These matches start as soon as tables and players become available.

Round 6: The 4 players that advanced on the winner side play two matches, at the same time the 4 players that advanced in the one-loss side play their two matches. Since these matches play simultaneously with the winner side matches, it amounts to one round for timing purposes. The two losers in the one-loss side finish in 7th/8th place.

Sunday final day

Round 7: The 4 remaining players in the one-loss side play their 2 matches, with the losers finishing in 5th/6th place.

Round 8: The 2 players that advanced on the winner side play their match for the hot seat, at the same time the 2 players that advanced in the one-loss side play their match. Since these two matches play simultaneously, it amounts to one round for timing purposes. The loser on the one-loss side finishes 3rd in the tournament.

Round 9: Finals single race, winner of the hot seat gets the first break.

I would make all winner side matches a race to 3, and the default for the one-loss also races to 3, but if any section of the one-loss side is behind schedule on Saturday, those matches in that section could be races to 2 until the chart is back on schedule. Or you could simply make Rounds 3-4-5 only on Saturday races to 2 on the one-loss side. Saturday is the only problem day in this schedule. Round 6 on the one-loss side determines 7th/8th place so it would be nice to make it a race to 3 -- and it would be the last two matches Saturday night, so just let them play it out. Sunday is only 3 rounds so I don't think you would need to go to any races to 2 for the Sunday matches. Likewise, I see no need for races to 2 on Friday with 32 players -- just let them play it out Friday night!

We have yet to play according to this schedule, we kind of intended last time, but didn't stick to it because of the host room preference not to eliminate players Friday night. That is impossible in our group in a double elimination format if you ask me lol.

Opinions?

Thanks for taking the time to do the scheduling. The only thing you might want to tweak is there are 10 rounds, not 9...

[NH Steve]

Thanks for taking the time to do the scheduling. The only thing you might want to tweak is there are 10 rounds, not 9...

Wouldn't surprise me lol, but what round did I miss??? There are a few that I piggy backed cuz winners and losers can play at the same time....

[crabbcatjohn]

Wouldn't surprise me lol, but what round did I miss??? There are a few that I piggy backed cuz winners and losers can play at the same time....

I don't know, I didn't scrutinize your schedule that much
I've been playing one pocket most of the day. I just know it takes 10 rounds to finish a 32 double elim with a single final. If you count to the left it will give you the correct number. I do see you have softened your stance a little on certain race to two scenarios. I appreciate that. One of my main concerns is penalizing a faster players next match when the slower player in the previous match caused it. Making independent decisions like that on the fly without actually watching every match is a tough chore and a hard lesson for a director. Whoever has to do that ain't going to make friends...lol. IMO it's better to keep the races the same regardless of what's decided. Just schedule to start on Thursday night if you have to have 3/3 so you don't have 12-14 hour days on any given day...

[NH Steve]

I don't know, I didn't scrutinize your schedule that much
I've been playing one pocket most of the day. I just know it takes 10 rounds to finish a 32 double elim with a single final. If you count to the left it will give you the correct number. I do see you have softened your stance a little on certain race to two scenarios. I appreciate that. One of my main concerns is penalizing a faster players next match when the slower player in the previous match caused it. Making independent decisions like that on the fly without actually watching every match is a tough chore and a hard lesson for a director. Whoever has to do that ain't going to make friends...lol. IMO it's better to keep the races the same regardless of what's decided. Just schedule to start on Thursday night if you have to have 3/3 so you don't have 12-14 hour days on any given day...

You are right of course -- I missed the 3rd place match. That makes either for a late night Sunday or you have to play round three Friday, meaning an earlier Friday start, or a later Friday night. Or you might have to go with race to 2 in more rounds. Anyway I fixed it below/

First day with 32 players
Round 1: 32 players 16 matches (played on 16 tables)

Round 2: 16 winners to be played simultaneously with
16 one-loss players (total of 16 played on 16 tables)

First day with less than 16 tables, has to start early -- like noon -- because the above two rounds now become essentially four rounds, but no one is ever waiting for more than one match to finish so their second match can begin. With a noon start, taking advantage of open tables, other matches can carry on, so the worst that can happen is a player going back-to-back in successive long matches (has to be partly their own doing). These players will have to play out their round Friday night. That is very reasonable to ask -- everyone has to finish at least two matches that first day!!

2nd Day The tournament is now down to 8-12 tables at the most for the rest of the tournament, so from Round 3 on, it makes no difference whatsoever whether we are in a room with less than 16 tables or more. Saturday is likely to be a long day, with 4 rounds, so a preferred start time would be 10 AM.

Round 3: 8 players that won their one-loss match vs the 8 that lost their second round winner side match play 8 matches.

Round 4: 8 winner side players play 4 matches, starting as soon as tables from the one-loss round become available. As tables continue to become available, the 8 players in the one-loss side that won in Round 3 play their 4 matches. Since these matches play simultaneously with the winner side matches, it amounts to one round for timing purposes.

Round 5: The 4 players that won their one-loss match vs the 4 that lost their winner side match play their 4 matches. These matches start as soon as tables and players become available.

Round 6: The 4 players that advanced on the winner side play two matches, at the same time the 4 players that advanced in the one-loss side play their two matches. Since these matches play simultaneously with the winner side matches, it amounts to one round for timing purposes. The two losers in the one-loss side finish in 7th/8th place.

Sunday final day -- also a long day with four rounds to finish. 10 AM start is kind of imperative.

Round 7: The 4 remaining players in the one-loss side play their 2 matches, with the losers finishing in 5th/6th place.

Round 8: The 2 players that advanced on the winner side play their match for the hot seat, at the same time the 2 players that advanced in the one-loss side play their match. Since these two matches play simultaneously, it amounts to one round for timing purposes. The loser on the one-loss side finishes 4th in the tournament.

Round 9: The loser of the hot seat match plays the player that won on the one-loss side. The winner goes to the finals and the loser finishes in 3rd place.

Round 10: Finals single race, winner of the hot seat gets the first break.

[El Chapo]

Does anyone have a ballpark figure on how long these "longer matches" tend to go?

[jtompilot]

Does anyone have a ballpark figure on how long these "longer matches" tend to go?

5+
I think the longest one was 6+.

[crabbcatjohn]

Thanks Steve. I know you have spent a lot of time on this and it's obvious your really trying to make everybody happy while doing what's best for the tournament.. It's much appreciated.
Now that you've done this scheduling yourself and seen what the scheduling really looks like, I think now you can see what the problems have been all along. You see, I have already done all this before Chicago and Cali. After Chicago failing after I brought up the scheduling problems I was even more vocal about the problems before Cali and again ignored as a complainer. So I didnt go.
Now you have Tom and several others backing out of the seniors and as I explained before, people will not keep on attending tournaments who's formats don't allow timely finishes each day.
One thing that still stands out is your saying we might have to increase the races to two for more matches or have a late night. I mean, why have a late night at all as you say might be necessary and make all the losers go to two? Seems like the simplest solution with no other tweaking, shot clocks or grady rule needed for slow play. I really don't see a down side to timely finishes each day.

[Cory in dc]

Four point plan from the school of Crabb Man and Miller…..

Here’s the simple truth:

(1) Tourneys need to either (A) start a day earlier -or- (B) start early the first day

(2) You have to play 2 rounds on both the loser and winner side the first day (for a 2 day regional event, you have to play 3 on the loser side)

(3) Loser side matches need to be races to 2 (unless you start a day early – see point #1 above)

(4) Matches that go over “x” amount of time need a mechanism to speed them up….shot clock, proceeding racks to 6 balls, or grady rule…..pick one

(I told myself I wasn’t going to weigh in on this anymore, and here I just did…..)

You're welcome

Crabb is definitely right. If you want double-elim and need a timely finish, then it needs to be 3-2. It doesn't matter how many rounds there are total, it matters how many rounds there are in the *losers bracket*. There are more matches in the losers bracket so you end up with the winners side waiting around for the losers side to catch up.

There are only two solutions:

1. Have a double-elimination tournament and make the losers side go faster than the winners side with shorter matches: 3/2 races.

2. Don't have a double-elimination tournament. Here are two options for this: (1) round robin feeding into single elimination brackets or (2) a modified double elimination. The latter would be something like once the winners side is down to 8, those 8 play for 65% of the pot, paying out 1-2-3 and the losers side plays for 35% of the pot, paying out 1 and 2.

[El Chapo]

5+
I think the longest one was 6+.

That is longer than I thought. Def tough to run a tournament when some matches are going almost as long as a 9 to 5 work day. Were they taking lunch breaks

[crabbcatjohn]

That is longer than I thought. Def tough to run a tournament when some matches are going almost as long as a 9 to 5 work day. Were they taking lunch breaks

Needless to say unwatchable too. As a tournament director you need a plan in your back pocket if matches like this happen.

[Scrzbill]

It’s not true we need to go to 3/2. I have stated why and unlike you guys who keep beating a dead dog. I’m not going too.
Steve, work out the scheduling with two rounds Thursday night after the auction at 6pm.
We end up with four players last day.
I’m dead money, if I get to play two matches I’m lucky and you want to reduce the amount of games I get to play?
Who else is dead money that is pushing for fewer games?

[El Chapo]

Needless to say unwatchable too. As a tournament director you need a plan in your back pocket if matches like this happen.

If I was in a match that long, unless it was like an ahead set or something of course, I would be done. I mean I would not lose on purpose or anything but my hole is going to start getting shot at. In other words, unwatchable, and unplayable too, at least for me.

The way to beat a player like that, in my estimation, is because they are so afraid of offense there is obviously a reason for that. So I think in a general sense, when someone is so afraid to shoot, that equates to needing a lot of innings to get to 8. So, shooting at your hole with a feeling of almost impunity can definitely be the way to go. And guess what, that can make them clam up even more... so great, I can shoot even more.

I gotta say I played my fair share of one hole and I never once had a guy play me like what you are talking about. Things do seem a little faster paced in one hole on the west coast though, for better or worse. I have actually seen players get pressured many times in smaller one hole tournaments in LA for taking even a bit too long, or even not shooting too, believe it or not. Right or wrong have seen it many times from guys that command respect. Maybe there is something to that?