The simple simple truth

[Miller]

Four point plan from the school of Crabb Man and Miller…..

Here’s the simple truth:

(1) Tourneys need to either (A) start a day earlier -or- (B) start early the first day

(2) You have to play 2 rounds on both the loser and winner side the first day (for a 2 day regional event, you have to play 3 on the loser side)

(3) Loser side matches need to be races to 2 (unless you start a day early – see point #1 above)

(4) Matches that go over “x” amount of time need a mechanism to speed them up….shot clock, proceeding racks to 6 balls, or grady rule…..pick one

(I told myself I wasn’t going to weigh in on this anymore, and here I just did…..:frus)



You're welcome

 

[crabbcatjohn]

2019 members tournament and Memphis plan results

2019 members tournament and Memphis plan results

When me and Miller designed this tournament we had 3 goals in mind. one was to make darn sure who was qualified to play...The second was to show the other members of this forum that you could actually have a tournament that ran like clock work and ended at a resonable time each day. Mike was in the losers bracket to begin the last day, started at noon and finished by 8:30. The last day didn't run 17 hours as did every one pocket.org tournament and seniors tournament to date. The other goal was to have an actual schedule of matches and races that realistically mirriored how long matches would take and a firm backup plan in case matches were running long. We told you guys that we were going to PROVE to you this would work and we did...lol
And guess what we got.. crickets and watched a seniors tournament that couldn't even finish after 17 hours of play on the last day. According to Kentucky, nobody complained and it went great and as planned...lol Except your lucky you didn't kill poor Dr. Bill...lol

So at this point we have the annual members tournament coming up. Nobody can decide where its going to be, we barely got the dates scheduled, i doubt we are going to know in writing who is actually qualified to play again, no firm or even tested plan for long matches and the usual scheduling mess that again won't work by simply adding 1 match on Friday.

We have a tested plan here that works. It was inexpensive for most of the players and time convienent to more players who can't take a entire week off. Players weren't turned off by the format as we filled the limited16 entries in 24 hours. We started at noon and got done at 10 and 8:30 each night and we ran a 23 man open banks on Friday... It also left time for socializing and matching up. It could be easilly formatted to fit the exact same schedule weve been using for the yearly members while eliminating the Sunday marathon debacles. The other thing people aren't understanding is the race to two on the losers side levels out the playing field for the weaker players and gives them a chance against the stronger players. To me thats important.
What i see happening is everybody that didn't play or have no clue how to run tournaments are looking at other untested options and nobody is even considering using this simple, tested plan that works well for our upcoming members tournament.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Thanks Miller and Crabbcatjohn! As you know I started a thread to develop a consensus on a few format suggestions for next year's Senior event. So far there have been some fact finding and a few suggestions, and at this point it is hard to tell if the thread will take off with good participation.

I also knew by some of your guys comments on threads about the 3/3 format, that it just would not work in time allotted, that you guys have experience and could work the math.

I have a few questions; How many tables did you play on? What was your start time each day? How long on avg. does a race to 3 take? How long on avg. does a race to 2 take? Was there a need to go to an alternative back up plan if a match took to long? And how much time was slotted for each match for your bracket to stay on schedule?

I agree with your premise that 3/3 does not work since it has been proven year after year. The key is how do you make it work since there seems to be no budge on the 3/3 format! I agree with going to 2 on the one loss side, in that it gives the weaker player a better chance to win.

When I was doing the RR thread, it seemed that a single elimination on the final day coincided well with RR for the MOT. Steve made some very good points for having a Sunday single elimination, and one being it may give the weaker player a chance for an upset. No discussion as of yet on this for the Senior event.

It would be greatly appreciated if you guys decided to participate in my Unifying Format thread. For me, the mere fact that there is no set number of max players is a puzzler for developing a format. Your experience input would be very valuable!

thanks for deciding to do your thread! Whitey

 

[crabbcatjohn]

I must have missed it Whitey. Who said their is no budge on the 3/3 format? As far as I know we still vote on serious tournament issues for our members tournament here.
Actually there are quite a few people who are starting to realize that the current 3/3 format doesnt work. As I said. Me, Miller and John even created a tournament to show the 3/2 works. I think the main push back so far is our inclusion of the Grady rule..See our Mele in Memphis thread for more details.

I'm not speaking for the seniors tournament, it will never work with 3/3 in the venue they have unless they start on Thursday morning and that still might not be early enough...lol If they get another 8 players next year they will have to start on Wed...lol

 

[cincy_kid]

For what its worth, I would vote for anything that would make sure we finish the tourneys at a reasonable hour.

I would favor shortening to 3/2, round robin format, and/or implementing some sort of shot clock or time limitation before I would only going to 6 balls, Grady rule or any other aspect that would change the actual game itself. (just my opinion)

Besides, the only downside to doing so would be you may play less games or get knocked out earlier right? If that happens, then we just match up, or hang out or do whatever we want. I don't see a downside really.

Anyways, that's my 2 cents. But we have to be able to get a 32 man one hole tourney completed using whatever time Friday night, after the calcutta, all day and night Saturday and then finishing by I would say 6PM at the latest but I guess 8PM may be ok too!

The cool part is, I know we will figure it out, looking forward to getting there!

 

[crabbcatjohn]

One of the many, many problems I see with the RR is if you do have slow players you actually guarantee them more games so you could make it even worse..lol.

 

[cincy_kid]

One of the many, many problems I see with the RR is if you do have slow players you actually guarantee them more games so you could make it even worse..lol.

True, but they could all be races to 2 which would help some.

 

[jtompilot]

I don’t see the super slow players in that lineup. That makes a huge difference in having to wait for a slow match or two to finish before the bracket can move on.
In my mind I don’t see how you can compare how smoothly and timely Memphis tournament ran compared to the others.

 

[NH Steve]

For most of the matches, a race to 3 works fine. It seems to me that there are only a handful that run overly long -- definitely a little more so for the seniors, but they are already starting early enough Friday. They just did not play off any one-loss rounds Friday, and that caused a two round back up that very first day that they could not recover from given the slowish play of the senior players.

We made that mistake with the member tournament also. As long as we set goals for how far each day is going to progress in the tournament, and then we stick to it, we should finish overall in a reasonable time. So far we have not -- mainly due to the learning curve, but also bucking to host room pressure not to eliminate any players the first day, and maybe also some player pressure not to have to play one more round on either Friday or Sat night or too early in the AM when players already consider themselves exhausted or unprepared in the AM.

Personally I would rather get bumped the first day, or have to play later at night (or earlier in the morning) than go to a race to 2.

That's my opinion.

 

[crabbcatjohn]

I don’t see the super slow players in that lineup. That makes a huge difference in having to wait for a slow match or two to finish before the bracket can move on.
In my mind I don’t see how you can compare how smoothly and timely Memphis tournament ran compared to the others.

We did have a few slow players and matches that would have otherwise went way long. As the majority of matches are played on the loser side , the question is if there were even more slow players how could going to 2 not help? For instance, we had a match on the loser side that was 1-1 at the 2 hour mark. Going to 2 was a huge time saver in that match.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

We did have a few slow players and matches that would have otherwise went way long. As the majority of matches are played on the loser side , the question is if there were even more slow players how could going to 2 not help? For instance, we had a match on the loser side that was 1-1 at the 2 hour mark. Going to 2 was a huge time saver in that match.

One match towards the end of the tournament that is going over can hold up the whole bracket!

It looks like the MOT and Seniors has migrated your way, anyway! That's ok, you have ran a successful bank pool and OP tournament so I am listening! Whitey

 

[crabbcatjohn]

For most of the matches, a race to 3 works fine. It seems to me that there are only a handful that run overly long -- definitely a little more so for the seniors, but they are already starting early enough Friday. They just did not play off any one-loss rounds Friday, and that caused a two round back up that very first day that they could not recover from given the slowish play of the senior players.

We made that mistake with the member tournament also. As long as we set goals for how far each day is going to progress in the tournament, and then we stick to it, we should finish overall in a reasonable time. So far we have not -- mainly due to the learning curve, but also bucking to host room pressure not to eliminate any players the first day, and maybe also some player pressure not to have to play one more round on either Friday or Sat night or too early in the AM when players already consider themselves exhausted or unprepared in the AM.

Personally I would rather get bumped the first day, or have to play later at night (or earlier in the morning) than go to a race to 2.

That's my opinion.

The only way to do that is to start at noon on Friday and then cross you fingers. The problem that keeps cropping up is you have to consider worse case scenarios in tournament planning. We don't have that in place in any of these tournaments. For instance, if finished with the final race to 4 going 4 hours, the tournament in Houston would have taken approx 21 hrs on the last day. They were an entire day and a half behind but they are now talking about playing 1 extra match on Thursday night. That still won't work but you can't fix it demanding races to three on the losers that still won't work... Same scenario with our members tournament.

 

[catkins]

you could go the other way and do shorter races on the first day and than longer as the tournament gets down to the top 16 that would allow more time for the people who will play the hardest and most likley have the longest matches

 

[NH Steve]

First day with 32 players
Round 1: 32 players 16 matches (played on 16 tables)

Round 2: 16 winners to be played simultaneously with
16 one-loss players (total of 16 played on 16 tables)

First day with less than 16 tables, has to start early -- like noon -- because the above two rounds now become essentially four rounds, but no one is ever waiting for more than one match to finish so their second match can begin. With a noon start, taking advantage of open tables, other matches can carry on, so the worst that can happen is a player going back-to-back in successive long matches (has to be partly their own doing). These players will have to play out their round Friday night. That is very reasonable to ask -- everyone has to finish at least two matches that first day!!

2nd Day The tournament is now down to 8-12 tables at the most for the rest of the tournament, so from Round 3 on, it makes no difference whatsoever whether we are in a room with less than 16 tables or more. Saturday is likely to be a long day, with 4 rounds, so a preferred start time would be 10 AM.

Round 3: 8 players that won their one-loss match vs the 8 that lost their second round winner side match play 8 matches.

Round 4: 8 winner side players play 4 matches, starting as soon as tables from the one-loss round become available. As tables continue to become available, the 8 players in the one-loss side that won in Round 3 play their 4 matches. Since these matches play simultaneously with the winner side matches, it amounts to one round for timing purposes.

Round 5: The 4 players that won their one-loss match vs the 4 that lost their winner side match play their 4 matches. These matches start as soon as tables and players become available.

Round 6: The 4 players that advanced on the winner side play two matches, at the same time the 4 players that advanced in the one-loss side play their two matches. Since these matches play simultaneously with the winner side matches, it amounts to one round for timing purposes. The two losers in the one-loss side finish in 7th/8th place.

Sunday final day

Round 7: The 4 remaining players in the one-loss side play their 2 matches, with the losers finishing in 5th/6th place.

Round 8: The 2 players that advanced on the winner side play their match for the hot seat, at the same time the 2 players that advanced in the one-loss side play their match. Since these two matches play simultaneously, it amounts to one round for timing purposes. The loser on the one-loss side finishes 3rd in the tournament.

Round 9: Finals single race, winner of the hot seat gets the first break.

I would make all winner side matches a race to 3, and the default for the one-loss also races to 3, but if any section of the one-loss side is behind schedule on Saturday, those matches in that section could be races to 2 until the chart is back on schedule. Or you could simply make Rounds 3-4-5 only on Saturday races to 2 on the one-loss side. Saturday is the only problem day in this schedule. Round 6 on the one-loss side determines 7th/8th place so it would be nice to make it a race to 3 -- and it would be the last two matches Saturday night, so just let them play it out. Sunday is only 3 rounds so I don't think you would need to go to any races to 2 for the Sunday matches. Likewise, I see no need for races to 2 on Friday with 32 players -- just let them play it out Friday night!

We have yet to play according to this schedule, we kind of intended last time, but didn't stick to it because of the host room preference not to eliminate players Friday night. That is impossible in our group in a double elimination format if you ask me lol.

Opinions?

 

[NH Steve]

First day with 32 players
Round 1: 32 players 16 matches (played on 16 tables)

Round 2: 16 winners to be played simultaneously with
16 one-loss players (total of 16 played on 16 tables)

First day with less than 16 tables, has to start early -- like noon -- because the above two rounds now become essentially four rounds, but no one is ever waiting for more than one match to finish so their second match can begin. With a noon start, taking advantage of open tables, other matches can carry on, so the worst that can happen is a player going back-to-back in successive long matches (has to be partly their own doing). These players will have to play out their round Friday night. That is very reasonable to ask -- everyone has to finish at least two matches that first day!!

2nd Day The tournament is now down to 8-12 tables at the most for the rest of the tournament, so from Round 3 on, it makes no difference whatsoever whether we are in a room with less than 16 tables or more. Saturday is likely to be a long day, with 4 rounds, so a preferred start time would be 10 AM.

Round 3: 8 players that won their one-loss match vs the 8 that lost their second round winner side match play 8 matches.

Round 4: 8 winner side players play 4 matches, starting as soon as tables from the one-loss round become available. As tables continue to become available, the 8 players in the one-loss side that won in Round 3 play their 4 matches. Since these matches play simultaneously with the winner side matches, it amounts to one round for timing purposes.

Round 5: The 4 players that won their one-loss match vs the 4 that lost their winner side match play their 4 matches. These matches start as soon as tables and players become available.

Round 6: The 4 players that advanced on the winner side play two matches, at the same time the 4 players that advanced in the one-loss side play their two matches. Since these matches play simultaneously with the winner side matches, it amounts to one round for timing purposes. The two losers in the one-loss side finish in 7th/8th place.

Sunday final day

Round 7: The 4 remaining players in the one-loss side play their 2 matches, with the losers finishing in 5th/6th place.

Round 8: The 2 players that advanced on the winner side play their match for the hot seat, at the same time the 2 players that advanced in the one-loss side play their match. Since these two matches play simultaneously, it amounts to one round for timing purposes. The loser on the one-loss side finishes 3rd in the tournament.

Round 9: Finals single race, winner of the hot seat gets the first break.

I would make all winner side matches a race to 3, and the default for the one-loss also races to 3, but if any section of the one-loss side is behind schedule on Saturday, those matches in that section could be races to 2 until the chart is back on schedule. Or you could simply make Rounds 3-4-5 only on Saturday races to 2 on the one-loss side. Saturday is the only problem day in this schedule. Round 6 on the one-loss side determines 7th/8th place so it would be nice to make it a race to 3 -- and it would be the last two matches Saturday night, so just let them play it out. Sunday is only 3 rounds so I don't think you would need to go to any races to 2 for the Sunday matches. Likewise, I see no need for races to 2 on Friday with 32 players -- just let them play it out Friday night!

We have yet to play according to this schedule, we kind of intended last time, but didn't stick to it because of the host room preference not to eliminate players Friday night. That is impossible in our group in a double elimination format if you ask me lol.

Opinions?

For anything more than 32 players, you are going to have to start earlier Friday (or Thursday if necessary) and get down to the same equivalent to what I called Round 3 for Saturday AM. To squeeze more rounds in that first day, I would also suggest more races to 2 on the one loss side -- again, trying to stay with races to 3 in the final rounds and maybe also the very first one-loss round (in deference to the 2 and out players), but it might mean some late matches Friday night, because you HAVE TO GET DOWN to your last round of 16 players on the one-loss side for Saturday morning in my opinion.

 

[LSJohn]

One of the many, many problems I see with the RR is if you do have slow players you actually guarantee them more games so you could make it even worse..lol.

Many? What else?

Maybe I'm missing something, but I strongly favor RR.

(The RR format most talked about would guarantee everyone 14 games and -- as far as I can tell -- take no longer. That looks a lot better to me than 5.)

 

[Scrzbill]

Many? What else?

Maybe I'm missing something, but I strongly favor RR.

(The RR format most talked about would guarantee everyone 14 games and -- as far as I can tell -- take no longer. That looks a lot better to me than 5.)

Everyone playing 14 games? Unless you use the Kentucky rule, where after two hours, everything behind the line spots, I don’t see matches going any faster. For the seniors event, if we had played any matches Thursday night, we could have had 4 for the final day. Myself, to have four for the final day would be my goal. Three, three. For arguments sake, for the members tournament. Start 9am Friday morning, play as many rounds as possible until 12 midnight. Saturday, the same. Same as the DCC. You start early and play late. Sunday, all the rail birds should be happy.

 

[LSJohn]

Everyone playing 14 games? Unless you use the Kentucky rule, where after two hours, everything behind the line spots, I don’t see matches going any faster. For the seniors event, if we had played any matches Thursday night, we could have had 4 for the final day. Myself, to have four for the final day would be my goal. Three, three. For arguments sake, for the members tournament. Start 9am Friday morning, play as many rounds as possible until 12 midnight. Saturday, the same. Same as the DCC. You start early and play late. Sunday, all the rail birds should be happy.

I'm OK with that, but the virtue of RR is that all the tables are in use all the time, and, you don't have to wait for rounds, you can play anyone in your group that you haven't played yet. It eliminates most of the down time between matches, and the empty table syndrome in the later rounds.

 

[crabbcatjohn]

First day with 32 players
Round 1: 32 players 16 matches (played on 16 tables)

Round 2: 16 winners to be played simultaneously with
16 one-loss players (total of 16 played on 16 tables)

First day with less than 16 tables, has to start early -- like noon -- because the above two rounds now become essentially four rounds, but no one is ever waiting for more than one match to finish so their second match can begin. With a noon start, taking advantage of open tables, other matches can carry on, so the worst that can happen is a player going back-to-back in successive long matches (has to be partly their own doing). These players will have to play out their round Friday night. That is very reasonable to ask -- everyone has to finish at least two matches that first day!!

2nd Day The tournament is now down to 8-12 tables at the most for the rest of the tournament, so from Round 3 on, it makes no difference whatsoever whether we are in a room with less than 16 tables or more. Saturday is likely to be a long day, with 4 rounds, so a preferred start time would be 10 AM.

Round 3: 8 players that won their one-loss match vs the 8 that lost their second round winner side match play 8 matches.

Round 4: 8 winner side players play 4 matches, starting as soon as tables from the one-loss round become available. As tables continue to become available, the 8 players in the one-loss side that won in Round 3 play their 4 matches. Since these matches play simultaneously with the winner side matches, it amounts to one round for timing purposes.

Round 5: The 4 players that won their one-loss match vs the 4 that lost their winner side match play their 4 matches. These matches start as soon as tables and players become available.

Round 6: The 4 players that advanced on the winner side play two matches, at the same time the 4 players that advanced in the one-loss side play their two matches. Since these matches play simultaneously with the winner side matches, it amounts to one round for timing purposes. The two losers in the one-loss side finish in 7th/8th place.

Sunday final day

Round 7: The 4 remaining players in the one-loss side play their 2 matches, with the losers finishing in 5th/6th place.

Round 8: The 2 players that advanced on the winner side play their match for the hot seat, at the same time the 2 players that advanced in the one-loss side play their match. Since these two matches play simultaneously, it amounts to one round for timing purposes. The loser on the one-loss side finishes 3rd in the tournament.

Round 9: Finals single race, winner of the hot seat gets the first break.

I would make all winner side matches a race to 3, and the default for the one-loss also races to 3, but if any section of the one-loss side is behind schedule on Saturday, those matches in that section could be races to 2 until the chart is back on schedule. Or you could simply make Rounds 3-4-5 only on Saturday races to 2 on the one-loss side. Saturday is the only problem day in this schedule. Round 6 on the one-loss side determines 7th/8th place so it would be nice to make it a race to 3 -- and it would be the last two matches Saturday night, so just let them play it out. Sunday is only 3 rounds so I don't think you would need to go to any races to 2 for the Sunday matches. Likewise, I see no need for races to 2 on Friday with 32 players -- just let them play it out Friday night!

We have yet to play according to this schedule, we kind of intended last time, but didn't stick to it because of the host room preference not to eliminate players Friday night. That is impossible in our group in a double elimination format if you ask me lol.

Opinions?

Thanks for taking the time to do the scheduling. The only thing you might want to tweak is there are 10 rounds, not 9...

 

[NH Steve]

Thanks for taking the time to do the scheduling. The only thing you might want to tweak is there are 10 rounds, not 9...

Wouldn't surprise me lol, but what round did I miss??? There are a few that I piggy backed cuz winners and losers can play at the same time....