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  • #16
    Originally posted by bstroud View Post
    Patrick,

    Have you spent much time playing on Brunsco cloth with Centennial balls?

    If you had you would see the difference.
    Nope, never. But if I had, cloth wouldn't be my first guess as an explanation, because I can't think of a sensible reason for it being so.

    Of course, the fact that I can't think of a sensible explanation connecting throw and cloth doesn't mean there isn't one - but that essential piece is missing from the theory so far.

    Have you tried testing the idea with careful controls and measurements? I'll bet Dr. Dave has - I'll take a look.

    What if the nappy cloth actually suspended the balls a little higher than the Simmonis. Would that have any effect on your scientific beliefs?
    CB and OBs would still be at the same elevation relative to each other... so once again I can't think of a sensible explanation for it.

    pj
    chgo

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
      Nope, never. But if I had, cloth wouldn't be my first guess as an explanation, because I can't think of a sensible reason for it being so.

      Of course, the fact that I can't think of a sensible explanation connecting throw and cloth doesn't mean there isn't one - but that essential piece is missing from the theory so far.

      Have you tried testing the idea with careful controls and measurements? I'll bet Dr. Dave has - I'll take a look.


      CB and OBs would still be at the same elevation relative to each other... so once again I can't think of a sensible explanation for it.

      pj
      chgo
      Patrick,

      Perhaps there a delay because of the nap. I know first hand that West of England cloth on a full size table performs completely different than Brunsco.
      WOE has even more nap.

      It is not always the sensible explanation that leads to the truth.

      I just know we should all be playing pool on a nappy cloth and most of the current problems would go away.

      Playing day and night in the 60's I can still remember the few skids that occurred.

      What a different world today on Simmonis. A day rarely goes by without something strange happening.

      Bill S.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by bstroud View Post
        It is not always the sensible explanation that leads to the truth.

        A day rarely goes by without something strange happening.
        Da true dem.

        pj <- or something like that
        chgo

        Comment


        • #19
          i dont know if there is more throw now as we used more outside english on the old knappy cloths of the past. and the balls all were dirty back then, i cant remember a pool room where they cleaned the balls often. let alone brush off the tables much.

          and bill is certainly right about not needing a stroke nowadays with the ice rink cloth. its so much easier to get position.

          and if you cant work the ball ball as much think about what the worse player cant do with it. but i have a bunch of sets old and new and cueballs from all times and they all hit close enough not to affect the game if you can get over it.

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          • #20
            Pool tables do play too "good" or easy now. I think it is because my generation was the first to start complaining. About everything. I am evidence of that

            There is a match on youtube somewhere with strickland and reyes in the finals of an event somewhere. They were having to hit balls a million miles an hour just to move the cb a foot. I kid you not, neither one of them missed a ball the entire match. THAT was real pool as far as I am concerned. Tables don't need to take just enough of your spin, but not be too grabby at the same time... I have heard guys whine about so much crap. Tables are a joke, everything plays perfect, nothing ever rolls off, balls are cleaned and polished, damn rails are as consistent as Church on Sunday. There was a surfer once who put it so aptly, Bruce Irons said "I don't like surfing in Fiji, the wave is too perfect" (and thus gets boring easily). What a quote. Really.

            I think the game needs to devolve to grow. One hole should be played on buckets, and nine ball should be played on nappy, slow, dirty cloth.

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            • #21
              I found that match!

              Worth a watch to get to see some real nine ball finally... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HPA_l09S0I
              Last edited by El Chapo; 11-25-2018, 06:08 AM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Patrick,

                If you think that the nappy cloth won't make a difference, let me give you an example.

                Playing on West of England on a 12' snooker table:
                The cue ball shot at medium speed with the nap with side spin will start off going in the opposite direction of the side of the cueball it is hit on. It will eventually return back to the original aiming line. Everyone has experienced that.

                Shooting the same shot going against the nap the cue ball never returns to the original aiming line. It just keeps going.

                This effect is documented in the Great Joe Davis' book "Advanced Snooker".
                I have experienced it myself playing snooker.

                How do you explain that? If the cloth has no effect?

                Bill S.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by beatle View Post
                  i dont know if there is more throw now as we used more outside english on the old knappy cloths of the past. and the balls all were dirty back then, i cant remember a pool room where they cleaned the balls often. let alone brush off the tables much.

                  and bill is certainly right about not needing a stroke nowadays with the ice rink cloth. its so much easier to get position.

                  and if you cant work the ball ball as much think about what the worse player cant do with it. but i have a bunch of sets old and new and cueballs from all times and they all hit close enough not to affect the game if you can get over it.
                  Beatle may be right. He certainly is right about outside English. It was necessary in those days. Conditions could be tough.

                  I once won $800 playing in an all black pool room in Elyria OH. The equipment was so bad the the only way to play position was from one hole in the felt to the next hole. The felt was hanging off the rails.

                  If you were making your living playing pool conditions didn't matter.
                  You had to win.

                  Bill S.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    [QUOTE=bstroud
                    If you were making your living playing pool conditions didn't matter.
                    You had to win.

                    Bill S.[/QUOTE]

                    So very true. Win or go home, if you had a home.
                    Coyotes, Eagles, and Deer, oh my!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by bstroud View Post
                      Patrick,

                      If you think that the nappy cloth won't make a difference, let me give you an example.

                      Playing on West of England on a 12' snooker table:
                      The cue ball shot at medium speed with the nap with side spin will start off going in the opposite direction of the side of the cueball it is hit on. It will eventually return back to the original aiming line. Everyone has experienced that.

                      Shooting the same shot going against the nap the cue ball never returns to the original aiming line. It just keeps going.

                      This effect is documented in the Great Joe Davis' book "Advanced Snooker".
                      I have experienced it myself playing snooker.

                      How do you explain that? If the cloth has no effect?

                      Bill S.
                      That's a well known effect due to snooker cloth's "directional nap" (it's even brushed in a certain direction) - but it's an example of cloth changing the path of an already rolling ball, not changing the immediate direction due to more or less throw. I doubt that even directional-nap snooker cloth affects throw.

                      pj
                      chgo

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
                        That's a well known effect due to snooker cloth's "directional nap" (it's even brushed in a certain direction) - but it's an example of cloth changing the path of an already rolling ball, not changing the immediate direction due to more or less throw. I doubt that even directional-nap snooker cloth affects throw.

                        pj
                        chgo
                        P.S. I know you've been around the block, Bill, so I'm pretty sure if you see something, there's something there - I'm just not sure what it is.

                        pj
                        chgo

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          old nappy cloths did change the direction of balls. and of course on the bigger the table the more effect it had.
                          same effect as on a putting green.

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                          • #28
                            The BIG question is :

                            Why do we have to play pool on this Simmonis crap where people without a stroke can suceed? It is a nightmare to play on unless you Bunt all the time.

                            My Diamond has it because it is used everywhere. It drives me crazy.
                            Balls stick together all the time. Nothing but skids and throws.

                            It's not the balls. It's the cloth.

                            Bill S.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I am guessing there are more skids because it is easier for the balls to slide so it is way apparent when the balls stick for a second

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                A long time ago hard times would let their simonis cloth go a long time. I do not know a lot about cloth or what type of simonis it was, but it was hard to draw the ball and the played true in my opinion. It was "difficult", fair, and seemed to be budget conscious as it was such old cloth. It seemed to be drawn very tight, as you could see the actual simonis patterns with all the softer fibers were worn away. It was some of my fav playing conditions. Sometime after they started changing the cloth much more often. To me what new cloth represents is "I wanna play good" conditions that are kind if catering to the desires of the players. But it is not the best playing conditions in reality. New cloth is easier to draw the ball, and levels the playing field in many respects.

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