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Waiting List Qualifier w/Seeded Finals

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  • Waiting List Qualifier w/Seeded Finals

    (I was asked to provide an example, so here it is. This is just an example, not a proposal or a mandate of any kind. Please don't focus on minor details and let's have a productive conversation. If you are not open to this right off the bat, that's OK too...because we have other threads where you can comment in, voicing your displeasure.)

    Tourney Schedule for 36 participants
    Friday 12-9 Chip Qualifier using 16 tables
    Saturday 12-9 Chip Qualifier using 16 tables, then switching to 12 tables at 3pm
    Sunday Noon - First Round of Seeded Final Day Matches (~9-11 players)
    Sunday 1:30 pm - 2nd Round (~5-6 players)
    Sunday 3 pm - 3rd Round (3 players most likely)
    Sunday 4:30 pm - Finals (2 players most likely)

    Based on the input I’ve seen, and the unknowns, I think it would best to do a waiting list qualifier (unlimited chips) for the first two days. If we have 36 for example, and we want to pay out the standard top 1/4 of the field, then we will have 9 qualifying spots, but that doesn't have to be exactly 9...we'll get to that near the end.

    Day 1 starts out with a random draw to formulate the initial list. Then players would get assigned to the 16 tables. So after those 32 players are assigned, there are 4 remaining players (the 33rd-36th) on the waiting list. The table with the first game that is completed is where the next person would go. So if Player 1 lost on table 1, then the 33rd person would go to table 1, and Player 1 would go to the bottom of the waiting list, which would now be "34, 35, 36, 1" (but with their actual names). So in this example, there wouldn't be much of a wait, right? So no need to limit how many games a winner can stay on the table. This waiting list would continue on until the predetermined time for Friday night, let's say 9pm, which allows for some match up time.

    Then on Saturday, we pick up exactly where we left off, and continue this way until mid-day, let's say 3pm, which is when the room owner wants to have 4 more tables to rent out.

    It's 3pm. It's time to cut out some tables. So what do we do to switch from 16 to 12? Easy! We take the 8 players that were playing on those 4 tables and add them to the TOP of the waiting list, which will now be 12 players long. This essentially allows them to continue their "inning".

    This is also a good time to begin eliminating the folks with the fewest wins. So the TD, who has been keeping track of everything in Microsoft Excel, will quickly be able to determine the 8 players who have the fewest amount of wins. These players will not be added back to the waiting list after they complete their current game, or would be crossed off the waiting list and notified that they have been eliminated. If there are ties we look at losses to help break the tie. If ties remain, then top players that are tied will all remain in the tourney.

    Now we're back to having 4 players (or so, depending on if there were ties) on the waiting list, but now with 12 tables, for a total of 28 players.

    Now it's 6 pm. Time for another cut. We'll eliminate 3 more tables the same way we did it before, which will put those 6 players at the TOP of the waiting list, which will now be 10 players long. Then the TD will sort out the bottom 8 winners (or bottom 9 if there was a single tie that allowed for one extra person to remain) and they will be eliminated as was done previously. Ties will be handled similar as before, so we're trying to keep the top 20 and all W-L record-determined ties.

    Now we have 9 tables with a 2 person waiting list, for a total of 20 players. We continue this scenario until 9pm, our cut off time. Once all games have been completed, the TD will do a final sort and the top 9 (plus ties) will advance to the final day.

    The first 2 days was a qualifier to get to the final day. The wins accumulated do not carry over. However, they qualified you to be there and they determined your (continual) seeding going forward. The final day in this scenario would be a seeded sudden death race to 2. If we have an odd number then the person with the highest seed gets the first bye. TD will keep track of who gets a BYE.

    Once half the field is eliminated we will do this again, again seeded. If there is a BYE, then the person who has the highest seed who hasn't had a BYE gets the seed. This continues until we have a winner.

    FYI, I chose a race to 2 on the final day because I would want the tourney to finish mid-day. After 2 days of almost non stop play and 9-12 players, this will be needed to make this happen. The finals could be a race to 3 of course.

    Any payout list would obviously be tentative as multiple people can be eliminated at once, so there will be a lot of ties. There are enough payout lists available on the internet regarding what the standard payouts would be, so any of those could be used. I'm not going to worry about that right now, I think I've you given enough food for thought.

  • #2
    It is kind of playing 'king of the hill' that we played as boys! So the strongest players could get more play on the tables, correct? But their name goes to the bottom of the list when they loose just like everyone else, Correct? It appears this is the format till 9pm Saturday or until once all games are completed, correct?

    Is the idea to give everyone the same amount of games played, also is that what is meant by; 'once all games completed'? Or I just noticed that it is a 9-12 chip qualifiers Friday and Saturday, so does this mean when your out of chips, your out? Are you given 9-12 chips on Friday and then are they to last through Saturday? Or is there a replenish of 9-12 chips on Saturday? I realized that chips will not be actually used, but win/loss record will be kept.

    Can you play the same player again if that comes up? Is each game played with break determined by lag? Simple questions, but kind of important.

    I am sure this all will become more clear since you have started a specific thread for Chip. Good idea! And the Chip format probably will progress as more ideas develop, and it is better understood.

    I hope my questions are relevant, and do not come across as stupid, for I really do not have a clue, I have not even heard of chip until these threads. thanks, Whitey
    Last edited by Dennis "Whitey" Young; 03-06-2019, 06:39 PM.

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    • #3
      Waiting List Qualifier w/Seeded Finals

      There are no chips. There’s just a waiting list. The idea is not to give everyone the same exact number of games. I don’t remember your other questions.

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      • #4
        Mark,

        That's exactly the information that I needed to understand. The "chips" don't really come into play, right? Or do we somehow win or lose chips?

        When you have said in the past, something about everyone getting the same number of "at bats", that's not "games" if I read you right. An "at bat" must be a turn at the table whether you win one or several games, or you lose and go back to the waiting list, right?

        I like the continuous play, I like the cut off times at 6pm and 9pm. Are you sure that if you get 8, 9, 10 finalists on Sunday you can get races to 2 o3 done by mid afternoon?

        All in all I like it. There seems to be quite a bit of randomness to who you are gonna play, and it seems like everybody will be trying hard to knock off a "leader" in one game to send him back to the waiting list, which I think is good. Could make for several upsets.

        I would hope that if we did this, you wouldn't have to forfeit playing, perhaps we could enlist one of ur visitors to keep track of things after a little tutoring.

        The early bird may get the worm...but the second mouse gets the cheese...Shutin@urholeisOVERATED.

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        • #5
          Waiting List Qualifier w/Seeded Finals

          The term at bats was used to represent how many times you get taken off the waiting list to play. That won’t be needed with such a short waiting list because everybody’s going to get a ton of play, and the shorter the waiting list is the more variance there can be with at bats. I tried not to use the term chips in my original post but I accidentally typed it a couple times there are no chips needed for this scenario.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by youngstownkid View Post
            There are no chips. There’s just a waiting list. The idea is not to give everyone the same exact number of games. I don’t remember your other questions.
            Mark, a little tip that I use when posting and replying to a comment just recently posted.
            While you are drafting your reply post, it is possible to scroll right on down through you draft, and actually go back a few number of previous posts. This way you can review the other post while you are drafting up your post! thanks for the reply! Whitey

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            • #7
              Waiting List Qualifier w/Seeded Finals

              Sorry bud I was in a hurry Running errands

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              • #8
                Mark,

                How does the speed of playing a game affect things.

                If one player averages 45 mins per game and another goes an hour on average, and another averages 30 mins does one get to play more games, more at bats or what?
                The early bird may get the worm...but the second mouse gets the cheese...Shutin@urholeisOVERATED.

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                • #9
                  I am going to try and sum this up, as I know it from these posts. Based on 36 man field for example.

                  Using 16 tables, a player continually stays on a table until they lose. Each game 'I would assume' breaker is determined by 'lag only'. After each game played the loser gives the TD a win/lost score sheet and that person's name is put on the bottom of the waiting list. Friday play ends at 9pm.
                  At 3pm Saturday using 12 tables, 1/4 of the field will be eliminated based upon 'least amount of wins', and if tied it is based upon total loses, if still tied those players would go to top of list to continue playing to break the tie. 6pm using 9 tables, another elimination of 1/4 of field, and on 9pm a final 1/4 of field eliminated once all games that are currently being played are finished. I would assume 'some type?' of tie breaker would be played at this point if necessary to determine final 1/4 of field.
                  Sunday; A seeded 1/4 of field remaining goes into a race to 2, sudden death, with final championship match being a race to 3.

                  Mark, would you check this over and correct any of my misconceptions or any of my assumptions, and of course add anything to this for better comprehension. thanks, Whitey
                  Last edited by Dennis "Whitey" Young; 03-07-2019, 10:05 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Waiting List Qualifier w/Seeded Finals

                    Originally posted by Dennis "Whitey" Young View Post
                    I
                    ...


                    Why have score sheets? It’s just one game. Players who are tied make the cut, like in golf. If you want to understand it better, plz first try reading my original post again.

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                    • #11
                      Waiting List Qualifier w/Seeded Finals

                      Originally posted by darmoose View Post
                      Mark,



                      How does the speed of playing a game affect things.



                      If one player averages 45 mins per game and another goes an hour on average, and another averages 30 mins does one get to play more games, more at bats or what?


                      Longer games would result in the loser being placed on the waiting list below losers who played in shorter games. 🤗. “At bats” would only be tracked if I wanted to ensure everyone got the same number of calls. But with such a short waiting list there is little that can be done without disrupting the flow of the others, so I wouldn’t want to do that. Allowing a slow player to wreck a tourney designed for maximum play would be counterproductive. The extreme case you’re thinking of is really not a big concern of mine. The slow player still gets a ton of table time. Everyone needs a short break from time to time, so moving him to the top of the waiting list all the time to make up for slow play can be grueling. Over the course of several rounds I wouldn’t think the would get lapped more than once anyway, but who knows. I’m not worried about the extreme cases, if this works great for 99% then IMO it’s way better than the alternatives.

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                      • #12
                        Why have score sheets? It’s just one game. Players who are tied make the cut, like in golf. If you want to understand it better, plz first try reading my original post again.

                        Mark, I know the TD inters the results of a one game match. But by using a score sheet is the way all tournaments are run by Bad Boys. It lists the name of who won/ who lost, and the score, and signed by the loser. I would assume they use this for a back up reference, so if by chance there is a wrong entry made.
                        How does a player know if a wrong entry is made at that point.
                        Will there be a back up computer available so players can check their score and to know how they are doing throughout the tournament? That would be nice, and the norm in keeping with Bad Boys procedure.
                        I would also keep a personal record card on myself, as in golf, so I can then verified that I am indeed out when I am told so, based on my 'least amount of wins'. That way I can right their on the spot verify for myself that the score is correct, and I am out.

                        So by your reply comment all ties whether at a elimination point or at the end of the regular session 9pm Saturday, they make the cut. So going into the final we could have more than your example of 9 players. 10,11, and so on in the finals if they make the cut, correct?

                        Ok, but seeding players with ties would be hard to determine, and seeding would be really important with a 'sudden death race to 2'.

                        Still open is this question;
                        when a player wins and thus remains on the table then with a new opponent is the next game's break then determined by lag? Or Winner breaks? Or Opponent breaks?


                        thanks, Whitey
                        Last edited by Dennis "Whitey" Young; 03-07-2019, 01:57 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Waiting List Qualifier w/Seeded Finals

                          Originally posted by Dennis "Whitey" Young View Post
                          by using a score sheet is the way all tournaments are run by Bad Boys.

                          I’m not a bad boy. “I want you to go in that bag and find my wallet.”

                          Originally posted by Dennis "Whitey" Young View Post
                          How does a player know if a wrong entry is made at that point.

                          Stats can be verified by reviewing the waiting list history. I could just create a journal post and keep it updated with the same information from the Excel file I’ll be working from. Anyone wishing to follow along can install Tapatalk on their phone. Laptops will NOT be provided for the participants. JFC, are you for real?


                          Originally posted by Dennis "Whitey" Young View Post
                          ...

                          Your other questions can be resolved with a lag or coin.

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                          • #14
                            [QUOTE=youngstownkid;253702]I’m not a bad boy. “I want you to go in that bag and find my wallet.”



                            "Which One Is it?"
                            "Born Into This"

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                            • #15
                              Waiting List Qualifier w/Seeded Finals

                              [quote=Jimmy B;253703]
                              Originally posted by youngstownkid View Post
                              I’m not a bad boy. “I want you to go in that bag and find my wallet.”







                              "Which One Is it?"


                              I'm trying, Ringo. I'm trying real hard...

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