Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Down on the Shot!

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Down on the Shot!

    I have been wanting to bring this up, for I have noticed that WPA does not have a clear ruling on when a shooter is down on the shot and the opponent interrupts them. In writing rule suggestions for bcapl, I suggested that it is a foul to interfere with a player when they are down on the shot, and they adopted their version of my suggestion.

    It gets tricky when the shooter tries but can not hold up their shot. In this scenario, Bcapl rules a foul on opponent and shooter then excepts balls in position.

    This is how I wrote a rule:
    Down on the Shot; when the shooter is clearly down on the shot, it is an unsportsmanlike act upon the opponent if he interferes with the shooter. If the shooter can not hold up their shot then the shooter can live with the results of the shot, restore the balls and re-stroke the shot, or accept the table as is with ball in hand.

    I'd appreciate your thoughts and suggestions. Of course BIH is BIH/BTL for us. I can see where I can add more clarity to my writing of the rule. thanks, Whitey

  • #2
    Thats a great rule if there is a ref.

    Without a ref it is just something else to argue about

    Comment


    • #3
      thats why i never ever play in a pool tournament as there is always someone wanting to call some rule on you. try that in a cash game and see if you get paid.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by unoperro View Post
        Thats a great rule if there is a ref.

        Without a ref it is just something else to argue about
        Unoperro & Beatle;
        So you are playing for money, non tournament, and your completely down on the shot and the opponent approaches the table and interrupts you. What do you do, hit him in the mouth! I was hustling a guy and I am on the winning shot for all the doe after hours of playing even, his friend came up and blew smoke into my eyes.
        Of course this is for tournament play, but for hustling you can still play by a certain set of rules, say bcapl or wpa. Even in tournament play any one can call a foul at anytime, whether there is a foul or not. So saying that there needs to be a referee present for this one instance just does not pass the test. Plus bcapl/csi has adopted this rule, and they do not have a referee present at the table at all times.
        Interrupting a player when they are down on the shot, is a grievous unsportsmanlike act/foul. What should the resulting penalty be in regards to OP.org? Loss of point, BIH/BTL, or what?
        thanks for the comments, guys! This like many other rules are of a very rare incident, but rules are needed to stop those that do not want to play with sportsmanship!
        In my town and all towns that play BCA league, if an opponent interrupts a player when they are down on the shot it is a ball in hand foul, no questions asked! Whitey

        Comment


        • #5
          oh please, dennis ive been playing all my life in rooms where the sweaters are talking and moving around and sitting on the adjoining tables. you just have to get used to distractions in a pool room.

          just try calling a foul on a guy that bothers you for some reason while you are shooting. common practice to move a little or cough or something while you are shooting a key shot. and it goes both ways.

          sure it is wrong to do but that is how it goes and adapt or die.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by beatle View Post
            oh please, dennis ive been playing all my life in rooms where the sweaters are talking and moving around and sitting on the adjoining tables. you just have to get used to distractions in a pool room.

            just try calling a foul on a guy that bothers you for some reason while you are shooting. common practice to move a little or cough or something while you are shooting a key shot. and it goes both ways.

            sure it is wrong to do but that is how it goes and adapt or die.
            When I played in late 60's early 70's and mainly at the Bellflower Palace, you could here a pin drop. One night there was 300 hundred sweaters in there watching the action, and you could still here a pin drop, couldn't see the tables for there was so much smoke. Etiquette has changed.

            Your right though as it pertains to your world, that's why I said; 'hit him in the mouth'. Lets stick to tournament rules, to stay on point, ok! Whitey
            Last edited by Dennis "Whitey" Young; 09-09-2019, 02:48 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              I agree with the rule and your thinking.

              But I see it as a potential problem if there is no ref.

              BCA says call all combo, banks, jumps.
              So where is the problem if you shoot a combo and I say I didnt hear you call it? Or heaven forbid I ask you when down on the shot?

              What if you run to the table to nudge a frozen ball and I yell "it is froze" as you stroke it?

              Too many scenarios to cover them all but I think you know what I mean.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by unoperro View Post
                I agree with the rule and your thinking.

                But I see it as a potential problem if there is no ref.

                BCA says call all combo, banks, jumps.
                So where is the problem if you shoot a combo and I say I didnt hear you call it? Or heaven forbid I ask you when down on the shot?

                What if you run to the table to nudge a frozen ball and I yell "it is froze" as you stroke it?

                Too many scenarios to cover them all but I think you know what I mean.
                Thanks for your comment, it is well taken! BCA goes to great length in trying to minimize the necessity of a ref. not being able to be at the table by being more specific in their rule writings. It is unfortunate that all this ink is necessary to cover the very few that want to cheat the rules. One loop hole that I wanted BCA to eliminate is when shooting past an illegal object ball and it moves, the cheater states; "I moved it with my stick", which is not a foul.
                When actually the cb hit it when going past it, which is a foul. Whitey

                Comment


                • #9
                  A situation that comes up fairly often in 1p match ups, tournament or otherwise, is when a shooter clearly gets down on a shot where the cue ball is very close to an object ball and the shooter intends to hit straight into the object ball in a way that if executed will certainly result in a double hit foul. I'm not sure what you are suggesting, Whitey. Some shooters don't really understand the double hit scenario much less the rule that prohibits the shot.

                  What is the non-shooting player supposed to do? Call for a ref or someone else to watch the hit, or stay in their chair so as not to "interfere" with the looming illegal shot? The latter, which seems to be what your rule requires, would encourage bad sportsmanship by shooters, or create a scenario that rewards illegal shots.



                  Originally posted by Dennis "Whitey" Young View Post
                  I have been wanting to bring this up, for I have noticed that WPA does not have a clear ruling on when a shooter is down on the shot and the opponent interrupts them. In writing rule suggestions for bcapl, I suggested that it is a foul to interfere with a player when they are down on the shot, and they adopted their version of my suggestion.

                  It gets tricky when the shooter tries but can not hold up their shot. In this scenario, Bcapl rules a foul on opponent and shooter then excepts balls in position.

                  This is how I wrote a rule:
                  Down on the Shot; when the shooter is clearly down on the shot, it is an unsportsmanlike act upon the opponent if he interferes with the shooter. If the shooter can not hold up their shot then the shooter can live with the results of the shot, restore the balls and re-stroke the shot, or accept the table as is with ball in hand.

                  I'd appreciate your thoughts and suggestions. Of course BIH is BIH/BTL for us. I can see where I can add more clarity to my writing of the rule. thanks, Whitey

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Tobermory View Post
                    A situation that comes up fairly often in 1p match ups, tournament or otherwise, is when a shooter clearly gets down on a shot where the cue ball is very close to an object ball and the shooter intends to hit straight into the object ball in a way that if executed will certainly result in a double hit foul. I'm not sure what you are suggesting, Whitey. Some shooters don't really understand the double hit scenario much less the rule that prohibits the shot.

                    What is the non-shooting player supposed to do? Call for a ref or someone else to watch the hit, or stay in their chair so as not to "interfere" with the looming illegal shot? The latter, which seems to be what your rule requires, would encourage bad sportsmanship by shooters, or create a scenario that rewards illegal shots.
                    I totally agree with your concern here. There are too many players who either don't understand the looming double hit or the rule and if not stopped will commit the foul then claim they did not foul.

                    I try to educate and inform opponents that if the CB passes the point of contact between the Cb and the OB, it is a FOUL. I have even marked that point on the table before the shot on occasion to prove the point.

                    You cannot write enough rules to cover every miniscule possible infraction that might occur, and we shouldn't try. This disagreement points out the problem very well.

                    I think we should make it clear all these rules are for tournament play where there is a ref or a TD who can make a call. When playing outside a tournament players must agree on the rules they will play by, period.

                    The early bird may get the worm...but the second mouse gets the cheese...Shutin@urholeisOVERATED.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by darmoose View Post
                      I totally agree with your concern here. There are too many players who either don't understand the looming double hit or the rule and if not stopped will commit the foul then claim they did not foul.

                      I try to educate and inform opponents that if the CB passes the point of contact between the Cb and the OB, it is a FOUL. I have even marked that point on the table before the shot on occasion to prove the point.

                      You cannot write enough rules to cover every miniscule possible infraction that might occur, and we shouldn't try. This disagreement points out the problem very well.

                      I think we should make it clear all these rules are for tournament play where there is a ref or a TD who can make a call. When playing outside a tournament players must agree on the rules they will play by, period.

                      That's often true, usually true in fact. But you can get legal follow even from close up: https://billiards.colostate.edu/high...ideo/hsv-b-29/.

                      The basic point that the non-shooter may not be able to tell that a likely push is imminent until the shooter is down on the shot is true. So you might not have a choice but to say something.
                      "LOL ... judging by your shot selections you play good" -- Hacker, September 29, 2015.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Tobermory View Post
                        A situation that comes up fairly often in 1p match ups, tournament or otherwise, is when a shooter clearly gets down on a shot where the cue ball is very close to an object ball and the shooter intends to hit straight into the object ball in a way that if executed will certainly result in a double hit foul. I'm not sure what you are suggesting, Whitey. Some shooters don't really understand the double hit scenario much less the rule that prohibits the shot.

                        What is the non-shooting player supposed to do? Call for a ref or someone else to watch the hit, or stay in their chair so as not to "interfere" with the looming illegal shot? The latter, which seems to be what your rule requires, would encourage bad sportsmanship by shooters, or create a scenario that rewards illegal shots.
                        An opponent can approach the table and position their self to watch a hit on a close proximity shot, but you can not interrupt verbally or physically the shooter once they are completely down on the shot, at least that is the rule in bcapl. But if they are not down on the shot you have every right to inquire as to their intent. Many times someone is asked to watch the hit.
                        I did a whole thread on close proximity shot foul criteria, with explanatory videos. I tried to get bcapl to adopt my foul criteria 10 years ago and still to this day it is the most beguiled misunderstood billiard scenario there is. To play the game at the highest degree of technical excellence then this foul criteria needs to be adopted.
                        A push or double hit foul on a close proximity shot is very easy to judge if you have the knowledge to know how to judge the shot. But without a clear cut foul criteria by eiher bcapl or wpa then the task is obscured. Whitey

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          As usual, Darmoose and I are in accord about the most important issues of the day. Birds of a feather. Peas in a pod. There is hope yet for peace in our time.


                          Originally posted by darmoose View Post
                          I totally agree with your concern here. There are too many players who either don't understand the looming double hit or the rule and if not stopped will commit the foul then claim they did not foul.

                          I try to educate and inform opponents that if the CB passes the point of contact between the Cb and the OB, it is a FOUL. I have even marked that point on the table before the shot on occasion to prove the point.

                          You cannot write enough rules to cover every miniscule possible infraction that might occur, and we shouldn't try. This disagreement points out the problem very well.

                          I think we should make it clear all these rules are for tournament play where there is a ref or a TD who can make a call. When playing outside a tournament players must agree on the rules they will play by, period.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Tobermory View Post
                            As usual, Darmoose and I are in accord about the most important issues of the day. Birds of a feather. Peas in a pod. There is hope yet for peace in our time.
                            Once again, I must agree with Tobermory. We had better stop meeting like this, people are gonna talk.

                            The early bird may get the worm...but the second mouse gets the cheese...Shutin@urholeisOVERATED.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Darmoose & Tobermory,
                              Here is the rule of thumb on close proximity shots.
                              When using draw the cb can not go past the contact point.
                              When using follow the cb must visually pause at the contact point before proceeding to follow. These criteria are valid provided the cb is not elevated into the ob.

                              There is more to this such as knowing the tangent line when shooting these shots on a slight angle.
                              The cb will initially take the tangent line path when slightly cutting these shots until the effects of the applied stroke takes over. Therefore to judge this shot you have to know this reaction. If the cb goes initially through the tangent line it is then a foul.

                              In OP these instances come up quite often, due to stack play mainly, so the foul criteria knowledge is important to know.

                              Stack play example; your cb is within a 1/4" of a stack ball, and you are shooting towards it with below center, stroking it softly, and the cb goes forward into the middle of the stack.
                              Obvious foul, and I'd like it to be considered illegal trapping, in which we allow for restoration, and I'd like to see it up graded to opt. for BIH/BTL. And Darmoose do not take over this thread with your foul option to return the shot, start your own thread, please.

                              Now do you guys still think we 'do not' need rules, and knowledge of rules. I would never stop a player in this scenario once they are down on the shot, to ask them what they are doing.

                              You better pay attention and stop them before they go down on the shot, if you are confused as to what they are doing, or you want someone to watch the shot, call a ref. at least this applies under bcapl rules, which apply at DCC. Or better yet have the knowledge to judge the shot. You can always approach the table and watch the hit.

                              The problem is there is no rule making body that specifically provides this knowledge to their players. So rules are still technically in the stone ages.

                              It has gotten so bad that at DCC rules state; "as long as you elevate your cue upon the cb it is not foul". So at DCC you can push right through a close proximity shot as long as you elevate the cue, but I repeat, you 'can not' interrupt a player once they are down on the shot at DCC, it is a foul, which means BIH. Whitey
                              Last edited by Dennis "Whitey" Young; 09-10-2019, 10:22 AM.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X