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  • #31
    Originally posted by Skin View Post
    I considered this when wondering about the penalty. Suppose the guy is in a trap and he gets to spot a ball after using up all his extensions but still stays at the table. Then he shoots the spotted ball in and runs out. That's all he needed. A crime, I tell you! For that reason I didn't like it when considering the penalty for a shot clock violation.
    Good point, Skin. Perhaps he should be given his next one minute period to shoot, and then spot his penalty ball. I like it, and it conforms to all other penalty procedures where balls are spotted at the conclusion of his inning.

    The early bird may get the worm...but the second mouse gets the cheese...Shutin@urholeisOVERATED.

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    • #32
      Break room

      Here is the scoring monitors
      Attached Files

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      • #33
        the top players make their money from tournaments, endorsements, and video.

        if they play too slowly, they lose their audience and all their income goes out the window as it comes ultimately from the spectators.

        the whole house of cards comes down with them. pool is boring to watch for most anyway.

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        • #34
          One solution to the shot clock problem is a chess clock. There are various ways to handle the penalty if one player runs out of time. Modern clocks allow adding some number of seconds for each inning, so if you play safes briskly you don't get automatically killed by the clock. And if you need to take three minutes to think about a shot, that's up to you.

          The best feature is that the players run the clock themselves so the TD does not have to provide staff.
          Bob Jewett
          www.sfbilliards.com

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Bob Jewett View Post
            One solution to the shot clock problem is a chess clock. There are various ways to handle the penalty if one player runs out of time. Modern clocks allow adding some number of seconds for each inning, so if you play safes briskly you don't get automatically killed by the clock. And if you need to take three minutes to think about a shot, that's up to you.

            The best feature is that the players run the clock themselves so the TD does not have to provide staff.
            The player-operated chess clock concept doesn't seem workable to me for these reasons.

            The clock has to be placed somewhere that is fair for both players. This is easy in chess and other clocked games b/c the players are seated at a table and the stop button is within easy reach after the move is completed.

            But with pool, the player may be positioned anywhere around the table, and depending on where he shoots from, he may be 9 additional feet from the clock (foot rail v. head rail, e.g.), assuming the clock is positioned on a stand equidistant from the chairs.

            Add to that the disadvantage that a player like Mizerak or Buddy Hall in their later years would have v. a nimbler, younger player in getting to the clock to stop it.

            Then you have also the unseemly spectacle of players hustling like hell all over the place to get to the clock after their shots in order to conserve time.

            &tc.

            Personally, I just don't see how to use that kind of clock system effectively unless there are multiple stop buttons around the table - perhaps located under the pockets or somewhere they can't be accidentally pressed. Although, I guess, each player could be given some kind of remote control device to stop the clock after his shot, but that also has inherent problems.
            Last edited by Skin; 11-07-2019, 11:06 PM.
            Skin

            "It's easy!" - Coach Acosta, former Mexican pro, instructing his 10 y/o little leaguers

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Skin View Post
              The player-operated chess clock concept doesn't seem workable to me for these reasons.

              The clock has to be placed somewhere that is fair for both players. This is easy in chess and other clocked games b/c the players are seated at a table and the stop button is within easy reach after the move is completed.

              But with pool, the player may be positioned anywhere around the table, and depending on where he shoots from, he may be 9 additional feet from the clock (foot rail v. head rail, e.g.), assuming the clock is positioned on a stand equidistant from the chairs.

              Add to that the disadvantage that a player like Mizerak or Buddy Hall in their later years would have v. a nimbler, younger player in getting to the clock to stop it.

              Then you have also the unseemly spectacle of players hustling like hell all over the place to get to the clock after their shots in order to conserve time.

              &tc.

              Personally, I just don't see how to use that kind of clock system effectively unless there are multiple stop buttons around the table - perhaps located under the pockets or somewhere they can't be accidentally pressed. Although, I guess, each player could be given some kind of remote control device to stop the clock after his shot, but that also has inherent problems.
              I see the single clock as an advantage: it gets the player back to his seat and he won't be dawdling over the table, complaining about his bad luck and how the gods are against him, and sighting over the position he left to see if he got safe while the other player is trying to shoot.

              I think it's worth a try. Or we can have tournaments that take an extra day.
              Bob Jewett
              www.sfbilliards.com

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              • #37
                Do these notoriously slow professional players, Dennis, Alex, Justin, etc. take as much time when they are playing other games? I don't know cause i won't watch any other games, got no interest in em.

                I am for shot clocks in all their streamed events and tournaments. I don't think it should be up to the contestants, as we all are part of the pool community and have a stake in the future of one pocket. i believe that in the absence of a governing authority, each event organizer should institute a shot clock format until it becomes the norm. After all, they are selling a product and the spectators want it to be sped up a bit.

                Does anybody not want that?
                The early bird may get the worm...but the second mouse gets the cheese...Shutin@urholeisOVERATED.

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                • #38
                  If you give most great pool players more than 1 thing to think about at a time, whatever does not involve pocketing the ball, will probably suffer immensely.
                  Not that they are dumb , but they are so focused on that one idea , nothing much else gets in , thats part of why they play better than us.
                  Half the time I am playing, my mind is not even on pool.
                  I'm thinking about family problems , things I should be fixing instead of goofing off, etc.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by cincy_kid View Post

                    After all, more fans = more sponsors. More sponsors = more money for everybody, including the players!

                    And yes, they are the best 2 players and probably slowest 2, but I would be willing to bet if they had a 1 minute shot clock they would still be at the top of the pack!

                    As always just my opinion....
                    I agree with both you and Joe. I can't explain how that's possible, unless I'm just wimpin' out.

                    I would guess that Ray Hansen has looked into attitudes among the players about shot clocks. If so, we can guess what it means that he hasn't installed them. Maybe he will see this and weigh in. I think shot clocks would increase his revenue IF it didn't much reduce the best players' appearances.

                    On a related subject, Roberto is adopting the pace of his two heroes.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by darmoose View Post

                      I do think that where a time clock is used, no two hour or three hour limitation on matches will be necessary.

                      With reasonable use of a shot clock I would never complain about the length of a match. If the games just happen to develop that way, no problem, as long as I don't have time to fix a sandwich between shots.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by stedyfred View Post
                        I view slow play as a player that takes a long time to shoot and agree with beatle ref these players (have the nuts and bet where u want it). As far as moving balls uptable and out of play with a sizable lead in a game, I consider this to be managing the game and playing the score rather than slow play. I may slow my own pace of play down a bit with the lead in an attempt to have my opponent make an error and end that rack.
                        I totally agree with that. If a player wants to use his innings to push balls uptable, I am all for it, even if it does very much prolong games. I do not think the guys should have long per inning times though.

                        I do not think this has to be very intrusive. The cost of having a good time keeper and coordinating with the ref would be the problem. The players should all know they have say 1 minute, and hopefully they usually shoot within that time. A bell rings at 1 minute and if they do not shoot within 15 seconds it is a foul or hell even loss of game. But guys like orcollo probably would not understand the spirit of it and wait for the bell to ring every shot

                        I said one minute but i think shorter than that is much better. The irony is that I bet the players would play better pool.

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                        • #42
                          [quote=bobt64;266944]
                          Originally posted by El Chapo View Post
                          Or what about watching them?! Anyone have advice on how to deal with that?



                          I watched an Orcollo match not too long ago. Youtube has a 15 second fast forward button on my ipad. I was consistently hitting it three to four times as he came to the table for standard shots! Imagine the complicated shots.

                          I totally agree, I watch a lot of one pocket and it's tough to watch Orcollo. I would have no issue with the use of a shot clock.
                          It is unwatchable.

                          You have to be either a huge orcollo/PI player pool fan or sweat the match or it is 100% unwatchable.

                          Watching the best player in the world struggle in extremely standard positions is just complete and utter fan misery.

                          Here is what i think they should do, and i have proposed this before. There is a little bit of an objectivity problem, but heck...

                          When they hold big invitationals like the ones pat has had, state that "slow play was one of the criteria we used to select invited players". Guys like orcollo are get there kinda guys, enough money events like this per year he is missing he will speed his shit right up.

                          Just dont let slow players play in as many events as possible. It is horrendous for fans so there is not much arguing it from the players standpoint.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by NH Steve View Post
                            Personally I think Tony Chohan should demand a clock -- of course for himself also --if he is challenging Orcollo again. As for the viewers, it is clearly why Pat Fleming ALWAYS has a shot clock for Accustats recorded One Pocket matches. All the One Pocket streamers would benefit from having a shot clock (assuming they could get someone to reliably run it of course).

                            In fact, anyone streaming does not even have to reinvent the wheel -- Pat has been doing this for many years now, and there is hardly a top tier player who has not played with his shot clock method -- either at DCC or any of the other events Accustats has recorded over the last 10 years or so.
                            I did not know that. Good for pat. That kinda kills my above point then.

                            I can see why Tony would not demand a shot clock, a sort of respect between players or something. But yeah, this is more about fans.

                            I think what happens to players is they think about paydays, but what they do NOT think about is the more people that watch, the bigger the paydays would be.

                            Someone needs to drive this into their collective heads. Because armed with this knowledge i do think they would make adjustments.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by BRLongArm View Post
                              Until our sport gets to the point where these men can make a decent living, do we really have any right to complain that they are playing too slowly? This tournament or gambling match is how they make a living. If they play fast and lose, they don't eat. So easy on the criticism of the slow play. Alex and Dennis are the slowest players. They are also the greatest players. Coincidence?

                              Let's ease up on the criticism about slow play. Maybe you're just smart and figure it out quicker.
                              That is exactly what i was addressing. It is pretty obvious in my opinion the key to being paid more is more viewership. People simply do not want to watch players labor over balls.

                              From what steve said they are playing under a clock at various events.

                              I kind of like many aspects of the chess style clock because it would get players back to the chair, which i think is an issue in pool. Santos in LA just sits at the table after he misses balls. He just sits there and looks at the table! I kid you not... I am talking the other guy is already up at the table and he just sits there and leans on the table.
                              Last edited by El Chapo; 11-08-2019, 02:24 AM.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by El Chapo View Post
                                That is exactly what i was addressing. It is pretty obvious in my opinion the key to being paid more is more viewership. People simply do not want to watch players labor over balls.From what steve said they are playing under a clock at various events.

                                I kind of like many aspects of the chess style clock because it would get players back to the chair, which i think is an issue in pool. Santos in LA just sits at the table after he misses balls. He just sits there and looks at the table! I kid you not... I am talking the other guy is already up at the table and he just sits there and leans on the table.
                                Bingo....................!!!!
                                Bill Meacham
                                WBT
                                www.worldbilliardtour.com
                                no link....

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