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  • Rule question from the Derby City Classic

    I posted this over at AZBilliards during the DCC, but would like to get yours opinion on this.

    This is two posts, the last one is more clear about what happened:

    DCC sucks bigtime right now
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well, I am here at the Derby City Classic 2009, have been travelling for 24 hours from Norway just to get here to play my favourit game of One Pocket in the worlds biggest One Pocket tournament, and then I do the most stupid mistake ever!

    "I'm a loser baby, so why don't you kill me" is the tune that keeps playing in my head right now...

    I played the One Pocket tournament this morning, and the luck of the draw made me play John Brumback, the 2009 Bank Pool Champion.

    I started out good on my break, and made him do two fouls, and at one time he needed 10 balls and I only like 4, I think. I had an open table, but dogged it, and he ended up winning the first rack.

    The next rack lasted very long, with many safeties, but John grabbed that rack too, so now I was down 2-0.

    I kept on doing the stuff JoeyA teached me last night, and I played smarter than before, but aggressive when I finally got a chance, and I took the next rack to make it 2-1 to John.

    In the next rack I found a four ball combination in the pack and hit it with solid draw, and got a wide open table. I ran 8 and out on him, with position to keep on running 10-11-12 balls.

    I racked the balls, and when I had finished racking we noticed that I owed a ball, and should have ran 9 balls.

    Tournament director made me lose the game on forfeit, and then lose the match 3-1 instead of 2-2 and my break.

    I have done many tournaments myself, and would probably have made the same call myself. There is only one person to blame here, and that's me...

    But it still sucks, especially since I have used my buyback and is now out of the one-pocket...


    Post 2, answer to the following question: Who ended the game prematurely?" Did you start raking balls and pulling balls from pockets or did John get out of the chair (essentially conceding the rack) and move to begin the next game?

    Not a stupid question at all. It was actually a part of the discussion we had with the referee/tournament director.

    After I pocketed the last ball I walked back and checked for sure that I had made 8 balls, then I moved the balls over the lights (which we use to keep score).

    He got out of the chair, walked back to the end of the table, looked at the 8 balls I had made and walked back to his chair. At the same time I raked the balls and started racking.

    When I finished racking we both noticed the coin near my pocket, at the same time.

    Because neither of us didn't realize the foul before the racking was done, I asked the referee to let us play the last game one more time.

    The referee's reply was that if John agreed to play it again, we could do that. Of course John didn't want to do that, and I am of the opinion that the referee should never even have given that option to John.
    --------
    The bangers consider me a pro - the pros consider me a banger

  • #2
    Originally posted by Roy Steffensen
    I posted this over at AZBilliards during the DCC, but would like to get yours opinion on this.

    This is two posts, the last one is more clear about what happened:

    DCC sucks bigtime right now
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well, I am here at the Derby City Classic 2009, have been travelling for 24 hours from Norway just to get here to play my favourit game of One Pocket in the worlds biggest One Pocket tournament, and then I do the most stupid mistake ever!

    "I'm a loser baby, so why don't you kill me" is the tune that keeps playing in my head right now...

    I played the One Pocket tournament this morning, and the luck of the draw made me play John Brumback, the 2009 Bank Pool Champion.

    I started out good on my break, and made him do two fouls, and at one time he needed 10 balls and I only like 4, I think. I had an open table, but dogged it, and he ended up winning the first rack.

    The next rack lasted very long, with many safeties, but John grabbed that rack too, so now I was down 2-0.

    I kept on doing the stuff JoeyA teached me last night, and I played smarter than before, but aggressive when I finally got a chance, and I took the next rack to make it 2-1 to John.

    In the next rack I found a four ball combination in the pack and hit it with solid draw, and got a wide open table. I ran 8 and out on him, with position to keep on running 10-11-12 balls.

    I racked the balls, and when I had finished racking we noticed that I owed a ball, and should have ran 9 balls.

    Tournament director made me lose the game on forfeit, and then lose the match 3-1 instead of 2-2 and my break.

    I have done many tournaments myself, and would probably have made the same call myself. There is only one person to blame here, and that's me...

    But it still sucks, especially since I have used my buyback and is now out of the one-pocket...


    Post 2, answer to the following question: Who ended the game prematurely?" Did you start raking balls and pulling balls from pockets or did John get out of the chair (essentially conceding the rack) and move to begin the next game?

    Not a stupid question at all. It was actually a part of the discussion we had with the referee/tournament director.

    After I pocketed the last ball I walked back and checked for sure that I had made 8 balls, then I moved the balls over the lights (which we use to keep score).

    He got out of the chair, walked back to the end of the table, looked at the 8 balls I had made and walked back to his chair. At the same time I raked the balls and started racking.

    When I finished racking we both noticed the coin near my pocket, at the same time.

    Because neither of us didn't realize the foul before the racking was done, I asked the referee to let us play the last game one more time.

    The referee's reply was that if John agreed to play it again, we could do that. Of course John didn't want to do that, and I am of the opinion that the referee should never even have given that option to John.
    I keep saying mistakes is what makes us loose. Mistakes is a high price to pay for a mistake. But it happines in real life and wars. One mistake is the difference between winning and loosing. Making mistakes is part of life and we all make mistakes. Its over forget about it and move on. But your focuss on your next tournament. Its a new start. Your not a looser because you made a mistake. THat showes that you are humman. And remember their is always another tournament. It was a costly mistake but if you learned from it it was worth it. When you miss a shot dont think of it as dogging it think of it as a miss and the reason you missed was because you were not lined up correctly. The ruling was a very poor rule. I would change that rule because after some onE racks the balls if I am to give a ruling it would be too late for the claim. And further more If it would have been me I would not have let him git away with it because its wrong and a cheap shot and I would have over ruled it and said its to late after the opponent racks the balls and nothing was said. And it was your shot and you could have made more balls and I would have over ruled the claim. I would not have played the game over I would have given yopu the game. And AS far as I am concered I would have said I made 9 balls and that would have been the end of the story. Its a cheap shot and a teckbicality. And the Judge or the person in charge giving the decision used poor judgment. And if the game is not on tap then no one can prove weather you ran 8 balls or 9 balls. And the shooter gets the game. And I always put the responsability on my opponent if I owe a ball he has to tell me. Because it favors and helps him. And if the player gets out of his seat he is verifieing the game is over. And If I was to make a rule I would say that if the player owes a ball after the player runns 8 balls its the responsability of your opponent to tell you you need one more ball. This is what I would do to keep the game honest. And its not about tricking your opponent out of the game like what happened but its both players to play the game fair were no one can take advantage of a player. And he could have even saID THAT COIN WAS THIER FROM LAST GAME. And in a tournament it would be a good idea for the referee to tell the players that the owe a ball after the run 8 balls . To keep the game honest and legit. But its over and its a tough way to loose the match. And you will always remember it. But its over . Look to improve youe game and learn and practice playing correct one pocket MISTAKE FREE. Some mistakes are more costly then others. And forget about dogging it everyone misses. You just need to learn more. And IF you belive that you mite dog it Dont shoot that shot. Make a different choice. DONT PUT PRESSURE ON YOURE SELF. TELL YOU LEARN TO HANDALE PRESSURE. I hope I cleared it up some and made you feel better but this is my opinion and what I would do and belive. HAve a great day.

    Comment


    • #3
      Roy,

      It was nice seeing you and how much you enjoyed your first Derby. You must have sat for hours at the Accustats table with that big camera.

      I hope you make it there again. I have no answer for the lost ball count/coin. It happens to everyone on occasion but luckily not in a tournament.

      Look forward to seeing more of your pictures.

      DeeMan
      not in his tux today
      DeeMan

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Deeman
        Roy,

        It was nice seeing you and how much you enjoyed your first Derby. You must have sat for hours at the Accustats table with that big camera.

        I hope you make it there again. I have no answer for the lost ball count/coin. It happens to everyone on occasion but luckily not in a tournament.

        Look forward to seeing more of your pictures.

        DeeMan
        not in his tux today
        One more peace of advice let your opponent move the balls first. And the he is resposiable and he coceds the game. Allways waite for your opponent to move the balls. And if you do that then what happened could never happen. Because its your opponent that made the mistake. And if a reffere racks the balls and he would have done it and racked the balls you would have gotten credit for the win. And that showes the rule does not work.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Deeman
          Roy,

          It was nice seeing you and how much you enjoyed your first Derby. You must have sat for hours at the Accustats table with that big camera.

          I hope you make it there again. I have no answer for the lost ball count/coin. It happens to everyone on occasion but luckily not in a tournament.

          Look forward to seeing more of your pictures.

          DeeMan
          not in his tux today
          I only got one thing that is big, and that ain't a camera

          I guess you must be thinking of the guy from Switzerland/Austria, Marcus.
          --------
          The bangers consider me a pro - the pros consider me a banger

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Artie Bodendorfer
            I keep saying mistakes is what makes us loose. Mistakes is a high price to pay for a mistake. But it happines in real life and wars. One mistake is the difference between winning and loosing. Making mistakes is part of life and we all make mistakes. Its over forget about it and move on. But your focuss on your next tournament. Its a new start. Your not a looser because you made a mistake. THat showes that you are humman. And remember their is always another tournament. It was a costly mistake but if you learned from it it was worth it. When you miss a shot dont think of it as dogging it think of it as a miss and the reason you missed was because you were not lined up correctly. The ruling was a very poor rule. I would change that rule because after some onE racks the balls if I am to give a ruling it would be too late for the claim. And further more If it would have been me I would not have let him git away with it because its wrong and a cheap shot and I would have over ruled it and said its to late after the opponent racks the balls and nothing was said. And it was your shot and you could have made more balls and I would have over ruled the claim. I would not have played the game over I would have given yopu the game. And AS far as I am concered I would have said I made 9 balls and that would have been the end of the story. Its a cheap shot and a teckbicality. And the Judge or the person in charge giving the decision used poor judgment. And if the game is not on tap then no one can prove weather you ran 8 balls or 9 balls. And the shooter gets the game. And I always put the responsability on my opponent if I owe a ball he has to tell me. Because it favors and helps him. And if the player gets out of his seat he is verifieing the game is over. And If I was to make a rule I would say that if the player owes a ball after the player runns 8 balls its the responsability of your opponent to tell you you need one more ball. This is what I would do to keep the game honest. And its not about tricking your opponent out of the game like what happened but its both players to play the game fair were no one can take advantage of a player. And he could have even saID THAT COIN WAS THIER FROM LAST GAME. And in a tournament it would be a good idea for the referee to tell the players that the owe a ball after the run 8 balls . To keep the game honest and legit. But its over and its a tough way to loose the match. And you will always remember it. But its over . Look to improve youe game and learn and practice playing correct one pocket MISTAKE FREE. Some mistakes are more costly then others. And forget about dogging it everyone misses. You just need to learn more. And IF you belive that you mite dog it Dont shoot that shot. Make a different choice. DONT PUT PRESSURE ON YOURE SELF. TELL YOU LEARN TO HANDALE PRESSURE. I hope I cleared it up some and made you feel better but this is my opinion and what I would do and belive. HAve a great day.
            Thanks for your reply Artie.

            I didn't even think about letting my opponent move the balls first, as you said in your second post. Simply because it was rack your own, so he didn't need to move a muscle...

            Well, I guess I am just learning the game the hard way. I am pretty new in this game, but that's a mistake I will never, ever do again.
            --------
            The bangers consider me a pro - the pros consider me a banger

            Comment


            • #7
              Confused over guys with accents.....

              Originally posted by Roy Steffensen
              I only got one thing that is big, and that ain't a camera

              I guess you must be thinking of the guy from Switzerland/Austria, Marcus.
              You are right, I had you and him confused. hard to blame me with all the new folks I met. Anyway, despite that big thing you have (I assume it is not ego) I did enjoy your writings about the DCC.

              DeeMan
              nothing I have left is big.....
              DeeMan

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Roy Steffensen
                Thanks for your reply Artie.

                I didn't even think about letting my opponent move the balls first, as you said in your second post. Simply because it was rack your own, so he didn't need to move a muscle...

                Well, I guess I am just learning the game the hard way. I am pretty new in this game, but that's a mistake I will never, ever do again.
                I guess Artie and Grady (AZ reply) pretty much explained that the referee screwed up. You should have been given the game.

                If you had just started racking after running the 8 balls then the referee made the right call. The fact that you counted the game and your opponent got out of his chair and counted the balls you made and never mentioned you owing one should have counted as a concession of the game.

                I don't know your opponent but I would suspect he pulled a move from the fact he went and looked at how many balls you made and then went back to his chair without saying anything then noticed that you owed a ball after you started racking. When this sequence was explained to the referee he should have concluded that your opponent had the opportunity to point out the ball owed and he failed to call it.

                At the very least it was poor sportsmanship on your opponents part when the referee gave him the opportunity to replay the game.

                I had a similar situation at Derby City in the past where a person who was in contention for the all around pulled a move that cost me a game. It sucks but as Artie mentioned all you can do is move on.

                Look at it this way, if you and the referee hadn't screwed up your opponent might not have won the all around and an additional $20,000 so you may have $20,000 worth of Karma coming.

                Wayne

                Comment


                • #9
                  I like Karma... and especially $20,000 worth... I'd settle for $5,000 anyday


                  Originally posted by Wayne
                  as Artie mentioned all you can do is move on.

                  Look at it this way, if you and the referee hadn't screwed up your opponent might not have won the all around and an additional $20,000 so you may have $20,000 worth of Karma coming.

                  Wayne
                  Been practicing more and more... still need a consistant stroke and glasses

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Roy Steffensen
                    Tournament director made me lose the game on forfeit, and then lose the match 3-1 instead of 2-2 and my break.
                    This was a bad call on the TD's part. Here is the rule from onepocket.org which covers an instance such as this:

                    "10.1 It is the responsibility of the shooting player to verify their own ball count as they approach their out ball, and the non-shooting player should avoid making comments about how many balls are needed. However, if the non-shooting player disturbs the balls, or breaks down their stick, or in the judgment of the acting official otherwise significantly disturbs the shooter in the assumption that the shooter is already out, such acts are considered a concession, and the shooter is considered to have won, regardless of whether a subsequent count reveals that more balls are needed. Likewise, if it can be verified that the non-shooting player’s mistaken statement of the number of balls needed leads directly to the shooter pocketing said number of balls and the assumption of the game being over, then the shooter wins, even if it is subsequently determined that the non-shooting player’s statement of balls needed was in error."

                    After you had moved the score-keeping beads, and your opponent came over to count the balls in the tray, then went over and sat down, that was a concession on his part, and you should have received the win.

                    I have a hunch that the TD was simply deferring to a name player, and was also trying to avoid re-playing a rack so as to move the matches along quicker.

                    The TD always has the last call, especially when their rules didn't cover that circumstance. But in my opinion, you got the shaft.

                    Doc

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by gulfportdoc
                      This was a bad call on the TD's part. Here is the rule from onepocket.org which covers an instance such as this:

                      "10.1 It is the responsibility of the shooting player to verify their own ball count as they approach their out ball, and the non-shooting player should avoid making comments about how many balls are needed. However, if the non-shooting player disturbs the balls, or breaks down their stick, or in the judgment of the acting official otherwise significantly disturbs the shooter in the assumption that the shooter is already out, such acts are considered a concession, and the shooter is considered to have won, regardless of whether a subsequent count reveals that more balls are needed. Likewise, if it can be verified that the non-shooting player’s mistaken statement of the number of balls needed leads directly to the shooter pocketing said number of balls and the assumption of the game being over, then the shooter wins, even if it is subsequently determined that the non-shooting player’s statement of balls needed was in error."

                      After you had moved the score-keeping beads, and your opponent came over to count the balls in the tray, then went over and sat down, that was a concession on his part, and you should have received the win.

                      I have a hunch that the TD was simply deferring to a name player, and was also trying to avoid re-playing a rack so as to move the matches along quicker.

                      The TD always has the last call, especially when their rules didn't cover that circumstance. But in my opinion, you got the shaft.

                      Doc
                      Players will do all the can to win even cheat. And as far as the referees go the no less then the players. And the should make a rule that if the player owes a ball his opponent has to tell him that he owes a ball after he runs the eight balls. Or her is also a good rule to clean it up and it does not hurt anyone and it will keep the game honest. THe player gets awarded the game. And he has to go to 9 to 8 the next game. But its a horabale rule and the rule sticks that the player just ran 8 balls and looses the game and he could have run 12 balls. And only a creep would take that game. It showes no class and it does not belong in tournaments. And it would not be a bad Idea for the referee to tell the player he needs one more ball after he runs 8 balls. And THe reason thats a good rule its equal for both players. And the player does not lose the game on a tecknicality. That he desirves to win. And when I played bugs we never played by these nit shit rules. And if he owed a ball or I owed a ball and he remembered and I forgot he told me and I told him that he owed a ball. And if we both sleeped the ball thier were never no cheap clames. THats kindergarden stuff. And I played Bugs about 25 times. And to penalize a player the whole game for one ball is redicoulous. The dont give you life for jay walking. And the penalty is way out of line.And its up to the people who make the rules to change it. And make it a rule thier are no sleepers. And the other player has to tell the player he owes a ball after he runs 8 bal;ls. And its fair for both players.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Artie Bodendorfer
                        Players will do all the can to win even cheat. And as far as the referees go the no less then the players. And the should make a rule that if the player owes a ball his opponent has to tell him that he owes a ball after he runs the eight balls. Or her is also a good rule to clean it up and it does not hurt anyone and it will keep the game honest. THe player gets awarded the game. And he has to go to 9 to 8 the next game. But its a horabale rule and the rule sticks that the player just ran 8 balls and looses the game and he could have run 12 balls. And only a creep would take that game. It showes no class and it does not belong in tournaments. And it would not be a bad Idea for the referee to tell the player he needs one more ball after he runs 8 balls. And THe reason thats a good rule its equal for both players. And the player does not lose the game on a tecknicality. That he desirves to win. And when I played bugs we never played by these nit shit rules. And if he owed a ball or I owed a ball and he remembered and I forgot he told me and I told him that he owed a ball. And if we both sleeped the ball thier were never no cheap clames. THats kindergarden stuff. And I played Bugs about 25 times. And to penalize a player the whole game for one ball is redicoulous. The dont give you life for jay walking. And the penalty is way out of line.And its up to the people who make the rules to change it. And make it a rule thier are no sleepers. And the other player has to tell the player he owes a ball after he runs 8 bal;ls. And its fair for both players.
                        This rule showes that the other player should rack for you and this mite not have happened. And your opponent mite have moved the balls and racked them and you would have won. I just want to show how silly the rule is if your opponent racks the balls or moves a ball you win but if you do it you lose I just brought that out to show that the rule needs to be changed. Were nobody gets a edge especialy the whole game. Whoever makes the rules bring it up and change the rule. By the way I wanted a rule changed for 20 years that its ok to have cellular phones in the sports book. Guess what the great geniusses finaly changed the rule. And the one guy at Ceasears palace said Artie told me 20 years ago that the will change the rule and it had no place to be thier. But we have people making rules that get paid for making them and the are not qualified. And it was a fool who made the rule to start with without knoweing WHY he made the rule and law. And the Casibos acted like you killed someone when the seen yopu using a cellular phone in the race and sports book. But some times it takes time. BUt to award a player the game because he owed a ball is to a sivear punishment to loose the game. And the whole session. Or else If thier is a referee then make it his job to take the first ball made that he owes and keep it on the side or make the other player take the first ball made and when he is done shooting spot the ball that he owes. And if he runns 9 balls then its over. And if he owes 2 balls take his first two balls and sit back down and after he gets done shooting then spot the balls. This is a very good rule and I aprove this rule and its equal for both players. And thier is no loosing the whole game because you owed a ball. So have the referee take the first ball or the player you are playing. And that will keep the game legit and fair. And this is what needs to be done so this does not happen again to another player. And it keeps the game fair and argument free. I no how to make rules and what has to be fair for both players. But I dont want a job making rules. But I replyed because of what happened. And its a terrible rule. I gave you howe you can change it and make it fair for both players. Without any hotility or tecknicalities. And no claims or forfit of the game. THis is a great rule and the players will approve it because its fair for everyone. And if the had this rule he would no have lost the match. And mite have one the match. And its not good to cause hard feelings and making people angry and bitter. Because of a bad RULE. Take it or leave it. Or play by those silly rules. ITs time to change the rule and make it better. And use it in all the one pocket tournaments. ITs time to change the bad rules and lawes. And that goes for the whole country and the whole world.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Artie Bodendorfer
                          This rule showes that the other player should rack for you and this mite not have happened. And your opponent mite have moved the balls and racked them and you would have won. I just want to show how silly the rule is if your opponent racks the balls or moves a ball you win but if you do it you lose I just brought that out to show that the rule needs to be changed. Were nobody gets a edge especialy the whole game. Whoever makes the rules bring it up and change the rule. By the way I wanted a rule changed for 20 years that its ok to have cellular phones in the sports book. Guess what the great geniusses finaly changed the rule. And the one guy at Ceasears palace said Artie told me 20 years ago that the will change the rule and it had no place to be thier. But we have people making rules that get paid for making them and the are not qualified. And it was a fool who made the rule to start with without knoweing WHY he made the rule and law. And the Casibos acted like you killed someone when the seen yopu using a cellular phone in the race and sports book. But some times it takes time. BUt to award a player the game because he owed a ball is to a sivear punishment to loose the game. And the whole session. Or else If thier is a referee then make it his job to take the first ball made that he owes and keep it on the side or make the other player take the first ball made and when he is done shooting spot the ball that he owes. And if he runns 9 balls then its over. And if he owes 2 balls take his first two balls and sit back down and after he gets done shooting then spot the balls. This is a very good rule and I aprove this rule and its equal for both players. And thier is no loosing the whole game because you owed a ball. So have the referee take the first ball or the player you are playing. And that will keep the game legit and fair. And this is what needs to be done so this does not happen again to another player. And it keeps the game fair and argument free. I no how to make rules and what has to be fair for both players. But I dont want a job making rules. But I replyed because of what happened. And its a terrible rule. I gave you howe you can change it and make it fair for both players. Without any hotility or tecknicalities. And no claims or forfit of the game. THis is a great rule and the players will approve it because its fair for everyone. And if the had this rule he would no have lost the match. And mite have one the match. And its not good to cause hard feelings and making people angry and bitter. Because of a bad RULE. Take it or leave it. Or play by those silly rules. ITs time to change the rule and make it better. And use it in all the one pocket tournaments. ITs time to change the bad rules and lawes. And that goes for the whole country and the whole world.
                          Or you can have the shooter give the referee or the other player the first ball that he makes and thats the ball he owes and if its 2 balls the same thing and the other player does not have to get out of his chair. And thier will be no sleepers. WRight it down.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Artie Bodendorfer
                            Or you can have the shooter give the referee or the other player the first ball that he makes and thats the ball he owes and if its 2 balls the same thing and the other player does not have to get out of his chair. And thier will be no sleepers. WRight it down.
                            Are thier any comments on what I wrote. Or doesnt nobody care. Or am I waisting my time wrighting this?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Artie Bodendorfer
                              Or you can have the shooter give the referee or the other player the first ball that he makes and thats the ball he owes and if its 2 balls the same thing and the other player does not have to get out of his chair. And thier will be no sleepers. WRight it down.
                              In the case of a ball owed from a scratch, which this must have been, it's a good idea for the opponent to watch the coin to make sure that the guy spots up his owed ball after the inning in which he eventually makes one (he could certainly remove a ball to hold after it's been pocketed).

                              If the owed ball is "slept", then the opponent should address the subject as soon as it's noticed, so as to deal with it then. However, if the shooter rakes the balls in to rack without checking with the opponent, and then the coin is first discovered, then the shooter forfeits the game.

                              In our example, since Brumback checked the tray and went back to sit down prior to the shooter racking the balls, then Brumback made a tacit concession. He should have lost the game, even though the shooter owed one. Keep in mind, this was a tournament match. In a private gambling match, I'm sure there would have been a heated discussion, probably resulting either in the opponent's refusing to pay, or perhaps if they were friends-- a re-play.

                              Doc

                              Comment

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