Is Fats a fit?

[Fanatic]

Just wondering if anyone has seen the movie "Cadillac Records" where Beyonce plays Etta James? There was a lot of talk of Fats in it since Etta James claims in real life that Fats was her father (according to her mother ...a prostitute ) . In fact there was even a scene where her record producer managed a meet between the two which does not go very well. The movie didn't make Fats look to good as a person but hey I guess thats the price of fame


I obviously can't give my opinion as to "Is Fats a fit"( in terms of ability), since I have never seen him play 1 pocket but from what I can tell from what I've seen (Dennis's video thread and read here) I feel that he deserves to get in the HOF (no special award needed).........Fats was a great hustler who's talent got him far enough to be able to get a boost from the movie and gain worldwide popularity that he would have otherwise not have gained solely on how he lived his life as a hustler (without the movie) People in the community (pool/cards etc.) may have known him or heard of him, but the average person would not have ...imho the movie did give him fame in the "outside" world. With that said whether or not he "stepped in shit" or earned it on his own merit ...it happened ....he became the face of pool in his time ...the point is , is that he did use his public platform to promote the game of 1 pocket and spred curisoty for the game (first above all other games) which he didn't have to do...I think that earns him a definite place in the promotion catagory (again I did not see him play...I'll let the others argue about ability/talent) but as a youngin it is obvious he had great influence in the popularity of this game.
IMHO-- based on discussion
XOXO

[SJDinPHX]

Just for the record, I certainly never said your "life would have been different without Fat's notariety" -- I said nothing of the sort. What I said was the same thing you said, "The movie "The Hustler" was the catalyist that created the resurgence of pool during my day" <--- your words.

I pointed out that you benefited from that very resurgence (as did Fats). If you are resentful about that, then I am totally confused

Steve, I don't want argue semantics with you. I respect your opinion, and I had hoped you respected mine, even if we may differ on a few things, from time to time. Here is what you said, and I took exception to it.
Like you say often...things sometimes look different, than the poster intended...I felt you left little doubt as to the inference here;

Your post # 92, this thread.

"If you are saying Fats would have been nothing without the movie, you would also have to say that pool in general would have been nothing in the 60's without the movie. That would pretty near have to wipe out Johnston City, as well as the whole action boom that swept the country in the 60's -- and out with that would go a certain player from San Jose, who would have found no great action scene to thrive in himself for those years, if not for the movie, and most likely would have gone to a day job a whole lot sooner than he did."

Only one other poster has ever made that kind of inuendo regarding my hiatus. "Lack of pool action", had NOTHING to do with it.
Also, you may have forgotten, I came OUT of retirement, and got back into high $$$ tough action, at age 62, up 'til just recently.

PS.. Fats was VERY good for pool, as was George Jansco...Are you saying WITHOUT the movie, either one would have been able to contribute to pool's resurgence on their own ? ...Fat's and Mr. Coke's were both over the hill and Jansco was a relative newcomer on the scene, until...1961 !
George is the one who had the foresight, and rolled the dice with his own cash, AFTER, (according to Freddy and other's info)...seeing the movie. It ain't rocket surgery.

[mr3cushion]

My Story about Dirty Lowdown No Good Red!

Red was the kind of guy that didn't have time for square broads, He liked the ladie's of the evening. But Red wa sa little on the cheap side, didn't like to pay much, so what He would do in Chicago, is go down to Cook Bros and buy up some hoops, (fake diamond rings), and pay the hookers with them. He had this one that was a regular for a couple of years, and in all that time all He ever wanted was a little noggen, (head), so after 2 years of this the girl says,"Red we been a little close all this time, and I treat you right don't I", Red said, "sure you do baby", then she said "well then, why don't you take care of me, like I take care of you"?,(meaning she needed some noggin too), Red calmly replied, "BABY I WOULDN'T SUCK A FLORIDA ORANGE".

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"

[CaliRed]

Who would ever of thunk that a Fats thread would have brought so many passionate responses from our friends here at onepocket.org?

The debate rages about how well he played, whether Tevis had him in mind when he wrote his book, whether Fats would have been "Fats" if there was no book, etc;.....

Let us all take a moment, close our eyes and picture Mr. Fats responding to each reply in this thread. No matter how passionate you felt about something, he would have surely cut thru all the crap and told you about HIM.

And you would have ended up liking it too

[Cowboy Dennis]

Also, you may have forgotten, I came OUT of retirement, and got back into high $$$ tough action, at age 62, up 'til just recently.

Yeah and it's a lucky thing for you that you re-retired. I was planning on coming on down to Arizona and shooting some holes in your cacti .

[NH Steve]

Steve, I don't want argue semantics with you. I respect your opinion, and I had hoped you respected mine, even if we may differ on a few things, from time to time. Here is what you said, and I took exception to it.
Like you say often...things sometimes look different, than the poster intended...I felt you left little doubt as to the inference here;

Your post # 92, this thread.

"If you are saying Fats would have been nothing without the movie, you would also have to say that pool in general would have been nothing in the 60's without the movie. That would pretty near have to wipe out Johnston City, as well as the whole action boom that swept the country in the 60's -- and out with that would go a certain player from San Jose, who would have found no great action scene to thrive in himself for those years, if not for the movie, and most likely would have gone to a day job a whole lot sooner than he did."

Only one other poster has ever made that kind of inuendo regarding my hiatus. "Lack of pool action", had NOTHING to do with it.
Also, you may have forgotten, I came OUT of retirement, and got back into high $$$ tough action, at age 62, up 'til just recently.

PS.. Fats was VERY good for pool, as was George Jansco...Are you saying WITHOUT the movie, either one would have been able to contribute to pool's resurgence on their own ? ...Fat's and Mr. Coke's were both over the hill and Jansco was a relative newcomer on the scene, until...1961 !
George is the one who had the foresight, and rolled the dice with his own cash, AFTER, (according to Freddy and other's info)...seeing the movie. It ain't rocket surgery.

Like I said, "without the movie" -- you will notice I did not say "without Fats". That's not semantics, it's just what I said

Most kids start out drinking milk, before progressing to soda, and eventually alcohol and maybe even drugs. That doesn't mean drinking milk leads to drug abuse -- or does it ?

[SJDinPHX]

Like I said, "without the movie" -- you will notice I did not say "without Fats". That's not semantics, it's just what I said

Most kids start out drinking milk, before progressing to soda, and eventually alcohol and maybe even drugs. That doesn't mean drinking milk leads to drug abuse -- or does it ?

Steve,

Let's close by saying, that I find I myself in a very uncomfortable position here.

I know that Freddy was very instrumental in supporting your efforts at getting 1P.org, off the ground. Your loyalty to him is understandable. I'm sure he was a valuable asset in helping you get this great site off the ground.

That being said... I can't help but notice, every time Beard (or AB) and I, get into a pissing contest, about "anything"...you are very quick to side with him.(them)

And thats OK. Fred has a wealth of knowledge about pool in general, much more than I do for sure. He was even tireless in his promotion, to get someone in the HOF, a LOT of people never even heard of.

This Fat's thing has erupted into a war of words, and I "know" Freddy is a Fat's promoter, and will not listen to anything negative about him...even from people who may be well qualified to comment. (including myself)

I may be the only poster on here who has not only seen him play several times... but has played him more than once, and gave up weight. (admittedly past his prime,...I can't help that, I can only be SO old. )

Now, sides have been chosen (re; his qualifications, or lack thereof)) and anyone who dares contest them, is made to feel, at least in your and Fred's eyes, as a knocker, or a pool illiterate.

I just have one question...How is it that Fat's, who has been gone for 13 years now, has never even been a contender (though nominated, I think, every year) for the 1P HOF ?
He has been out-voted by every deceased player, since you began the HOF.

Fat's was always a crowd favorite, and very popular with almost all his peers.

But if he was, in fact, (A)... One of the greatest 1P player's that ever lived, or (B)...The greatest contributor and selfless [sic] promoter, of the game of one pocket...(C)...And his age was never a problem.....
.....Why wasn't he the nominated and voted in.. IN THE FIRST YEAR ?


PS.. I dodged drugs...but I did go straight from milk...to alcohol..

[NH Steve]

Steve,

Let's close by saying, that I find I myself in a very uncomfortable position here.

I know that Freddy was very instrumental in supporting your efforts at getting 1P.org, off the ground. Your loyalty to him is understandable. I'm sure he was a valuable asset in helping you get this great site off the ground.

That being said... I can't help but notice, every time Beard (or AB) and I, get into a pissing contest, about "anything"...you are very quick to side with him.(them)

And thats OK. He has a wealth of knowledge about pool in general, much more than I do for sure. He was even tireless in his promotion, to get someone in the HOF, a LOT of people never even heard of.

This Fat's thing has erupted into a war of words, and I "know" Freddy is a Fat's promoter, and will not listen to anything negative about him...even from people who may be well qualified to comment. (including myself)

I may be the only poster on here who has not only seen him play several times... but has played him more than once. (admittedly past his prime,...I can't help that, I can only be SO old. )

Now, sides have been chosen (re; his qualifications, or lack thereof)) and anyone who dares contest them, is made to feel, at least in your and Fred's eyes, as a knocker, or a pool illiterate.

I just have one question...How is it that Fat's, who has been gone for 13 years now, has never even been a contender (though nominated, I think, every year) for the 1P HOF ?
He has been out-voted by every deceased player, since you began the HOF.

Fat's was always a crowd favorite, and very popular with almost all his peers.

But if he was, in fact, (A)... One of the greatest 1P player's that ever lived, or (B)...The greatest contributor and selfless [sic] promoter, of the game of one pocket...(C)...And his age was never a problem.....
.....Why wasn't he the nominated and voted in.. IN THE FIRST YEAR ?


PS.. I dodged drugs...but I did go straight from milk...to alcohol..

You are sooooo exaggerating the slightest truths, and several times completely mis-speaking I do not know where to begin, so I believe I will just give up for now. Except for one thing. I started Onepocket.org entirely on my own. That said, I appreciate every single poster and contributor who has joined in over the years -- especially the living legends of the game that take the time and effort to post here and help out in other ways, big and small. That even includes you -- but jeeez don't let it go to your head

[gulfportdoc]

PS.. Fats was VERY good for pool, as was George Jansco...Are you saying WITHOUT the movie, either one would have been able to contribute to pool's resurgence on their own ? ...Fat's and Mr. Coke's were both over the hill and Jansco was a relative newcomer on the scene, until...1961 !
George is the one who had the foresight, and rolled the dice with his own cash, AFTER, (according to Freddy and other's info)...seeing the movie. It ain't rocket surgery.

Well evidently this is not the case. George Jansco made the decision to have a hustler's tournament, the World's One Pocket Billiards Tournament, prior to the release of The Huster. None of the crowd that had anything to do with the tournament idea had any notion of the upcoming movie. The film was released on September 25, 1961.

R.A. Dyer in his well researched book, Hustler Days writes, "The idea first came to Shriver [Earl], like an epiphany, although it took George Jansco to make the idea reality. 'We were drinking beer and I remember Earl telling him [George] that he would call a few people and there would be a lot of action,' recalled Squirrel. ...Earl loved the idea and Squirrel loved the idea and Georgie loved it too. And so did New York Fats, down in Du Quoin, just sixty miles away. They called his fat ass straightaway."

"At roughly the same time that Georgie, Shriver, and the Squirrel began work on what would become America's most colorful pool tournaments, Twentieth Century Fox began work on The Hustler."

"There is strong evidence that Georgie, Earl, and the Squirrel knew nothing of The Hustler when their mortar shell idea for a pool tournament struck them. The bartender and his pool-shooting buddies conducted the competition after the film's release, but Squirrel, George Jansco's daughter, and others later recalled that planning began before the movie."

And this regarding Wanderone's Minnesota Fats hoax from JoAnn Jansco: "We were sitting in the J & J, and Fats was playing pool with my dad, recalled JoAnn. David asked me where the movie was playing, and my dad said it was at the drive-in the Egyptian, out in Heron, Illinois. And then my dad told Fats --and I'll never forget this-- my dad said, 'You ought to go over there and set up a stand and claim to be Minnesota Fats ...He just kept telling him and telling him, said JoAnn. Wanderone, by then, had resided in little Egypt for nearly two decades. he was semiretired, well past his prime, had very little money. In fact, he was broke just as often as not. he'd spent his life as a pool hustler but had very little to show for it. 'Go out there,' hissed Jansco. 'Just go out there. Do it'."

Doc

[SJDinPHX]

Well evidently this is not the case. George Jansco made the decision to have a hustler's tournament, the World's One Pocket Billiards Tournament, prior to the release of The Huster. None of the crowd that had anything to do with the tournament idea had any notion of the upcoming movie. The film was released on September 25, 1961.

R.A. Dyer in his well researched book, Hustler Days writes, "The idea first came to Shriver [Earl], like an epiphany, although it took George Jansco to make the idea reality. 'We were drinking beer and I remember Earl telling him [George] that he would call a few people and there would be a lot of action,' recalled Squirrel. ...Earl loved the idea and Squirrel loved the idea and Georgie loved it too. And so did New York Fats, down in Du Quoin, just sixty miles away. They called his fat ass straightaway."

"At roughly the same time that Georgie, Shriver, and the Squirrel began work on what would become America's most colorful pool tournaments, Twentieth Century Fox began work on The Hustler."

"There is strong evidence that Georgie, Earl, and the Squirrel knew nothing of The Hustler when their mortar shell idea for a pool tournament struck them. The bartender and his pool-shooting buddies conducted the competition after the film's release, but Squirrel, George Jansco's daughter, and others later recalled that planning began before the movie."

And this regarding Wanderone's Minnesota Fats hoax from JoAnn Jansco: "We were sitting in the J & J, and Fats was playing pool with my dad, recalled JoAnn. David asked me where the movie was playing, and my dad said it was at the drive-in the Egyptian, out in Heron, Illinois. And then my dad told Fats --and I'll never forget this-- my dad said, 'You ought to go over there and set up a stand and claim to be Minnesota Fats ...He just kept telling him and telling him, said JoAnn. Wanderone, by then, had resided in little Egypt for nearly two decades. he was semiretired, well past his prime, had very little money. In fact, he was broke just as often as not. he'd spent his life as a pool hustler but had very little to show for it. 'Go out there,' hissed Jansco. 'Just go out there. Do it'."

Doc

Very interesting find Doc. So it looks like it was more of a coincidence, timing wise, huh ? But the timing was golden...wasn't it ?

I guess we'll always wonder if Jansco's efforts, would have become nothing more than a well organized "Hustler's Get together", instead of becoming a well attended, popular event, by both player's and spectator's, as the years went on.

The success of the movie, could also be why Jim Mckay and WWOS, did not show up until the following year.

Sheds some new light on Fat's role too, doesn't it ? (if accurate...who knows for sure)

SJD <---with all my "erroneous" statements, I still wish Steve had answered my "ONE" valid question, before he quit speaking to me.. (I'll bet Beardman is forming a blistering answer for me...take your time Fred.)

[jay helfert]

The Fat's promoter's, all the way from Jay, Freddy, and on down to the Grey Ghost, are missing the entire thrust of this dialogue.

No one is saying Fat's was not a great promoter/con man/etc., but some of us are trying to point out... that WITHOUT the movie, Fats would have languished in obscurity, just like ALL the other great player's, con men, and hustler's, that ALL of us "insider's", have been privy to forever.

Whatever the VERY SMALL circle of pool enthusiasts thought, Fatty would NEVER have become a household name, WITHOUT the movie.

We can argue about his playing skills, or his lack thereof. We can argue about whether Tevis had him in mind when he wrote the book..as GG said we can argue about what he would have been, had TV been mainstream when Fat's was in his prime, which is really a stretch, because TV never really gave a s--t about pool anyway.

The bottom line is 99.9 % of the people in this country NEVER even heard of "Minnesota, Triple smart, or NY Fat's" (or for damn sure Rudolph Wanderone Jr).....UNTIL AFTER 1961.

After the movie, he became a name synonamous with pool...for generations to come.

I personally loved the character he was, but I resent Steve Booth saying my life would have been different without Fat's notariety. My life decisions had NOTHING to do with the the success of the movie..or the Fat man.

The movie "The Hustler" was the catalyist that created the resurgence of pool during my day. Fatty was just the one who was able to capitalize on it the most. He kept it alive for a little longer, and I can appreciate that...but when the TCOM movie came out (in the 80's)...he was just a footnote.

And Lastly, I voted, and promoted him, for ANY HOF award befitting of his accomplishments.
In fact I think he deserves "special" recognition of some kind. But it amazes me to see how many choose to ignore, what a REAL GOOD break he got... in 1961.

He may have deserved it...but it was still a Hell of a leg up. Where is the argument in that ?

Sorry Dick. You don't get to rewrite history. What happened, happened. It's like discussing the chicken and the egg. Fats saw an opportunity and took advantage of it. And more importantly he pulled it off. I doubt anyone else could have, given the circumstances.

No one was able to capitalize on the name Fast Eddie, even though a few tried. They didn't have the gift for promotion like Fats had. Once again he was a unique character, and who knows, if there hadn't have been a movie he may have found another way into the limelight. One appearance on TV talk show and he may have been rolling.

[stevelomako]

SJD <---with all my "erroneous" statements, I still wish Steve had answered my "ONE" valid question, before he quit speaking to me.. (I'll bet Beardman is forming a blistering answer for me...take your time Fred.)

I'll kind of answer your question for him.

I voted for Fats every year. The Fat man should have been in with the first group and if not the second group but if people dont know shit about players then it aint gonna happen. Most of the time they play follow the leader.

Good example this year is how can Buddy Hall and yourself get in before Hopkins and Parica??? This comment is definately nothing personal because you and Buddy should be in, (you was a killa when you played and Buddy was a tournament player)....but in my opinion not before two guys that played it way more for longer (action and tournaments) than either of you two.

I've seen and heard more stuff and more stories about players, roadies, champions and action guys from more players, champions and old-timers than just about anybody in the country!! I'll follow the Beard thru a mine field defending Fats on this one. I know what I was told about Fats from Alton "Baby face" Whitlow and Corn and Kilroy just to name a few.

That said, my votes this year will be:

Hopkins
Parica
Fatty

thats it, I dont go nuts and vote for almost everybody.



Also, here's my pick for Lifetime in Action.

Paul "Jew Paul" Bruesloff


Love ya Dick, hope yer at DCC this year.

[jay helfert]

lll,

#1. If you mean best player, NO... I doubt he was ever in the top ten at any point in his life.
If you mean getting the cash, YES...he was one of, if not, the best.

#2. Hasn't anyone noticed...FAT'S promoted FAT'S...did pool come along for the ride after he gained notoriety ?...YES. One pocket specifically...NO.... It just happened to be his favorite game.

We all seem to look at it differently, my opinion is just that....my opinion.
Not trying to be evasive, but you must admit...it is a hard thing to pin down. Apparantly those who idolized Fatty, don't want to listen to anything but HIS rhetoric...and thats THEIR prerogotive.

Fats did promote Fats, and very well I might add. He also promoted pool at every exhibition and appearance he ever did. "Pool is the greatest game on earth!" He would proclaim to all present, in person and on TV. He also frequently launched into a dissertation on why pool was such a great game and so hard to play. Sorry Dick, I was there. I heard it and I saw it.

[jay helfert]

[QUOTE=SJDinPHX]

GG man, I don't think you realize, you just re-enforced what I've been saying all along.
"Titanic was not in a movie, and that don't make him any less Titanic... TO THE PEOPLE VERSED IN THE GAME/HUSTLE/HISTORY of billiards as a whole" ...those are your own words.

Your words are very true...no one is talking about people, "versed in the game"...Of course "WE" all knew who Titanic and Fat's were. You have got to wake up to the fact that "WE" are a very, very, small minority, and NO ONE outside of "US" would ever have heard of Minnesota Fat's had it not been for a highly successful movie, with big name stars, that the public adored.
The movie was more about life and morality anyway... pool was just a vehicle to tell the story, just like "The Raging Bull" used boxing.

Titanic (who was never even known for his pool skills) WAS a legend to you and me...and guy's like US, but he died in relative obscurity. Had it made national news, I would have tried to attend the funeral. He and his son Tommy, and I were quite good friends in his later years.

Larger than life figure that Ti was, he was unknown to people outside of "OUR" lifestyle, and certainly NEVER became a houshold name. He, even more than Fat's had a tremendous life story to tell...but nobody ever got around to writing a best selling book, or making a movie about it.

I guess you just don't want to believe the same fate would have befallen Fatty, had it not been for "The Hustler".

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but don't bet big $$$ on it being right. Stop the next person on the street, ( a few blocks away from the pool hall..) and ask if they've ever heard of Billy Incardone, or Ronnie Allen, or Grady Matthew's, or Rudolph Wanderone. What are the odds you get a blank stare ??
Then ask them if they've ever heard of "Minnesota Fat's"...If they're old enough...a picture of Jackie Gleason will jump into their head, and they'll say "Yeah, sure I have, hasn't everybody" ?... I rest my case.

Night all.

In his prime (the 60's, 70's and 80's), Minnesota Fats (Wanderone) was as well known as Gleason and just as recognizable.

[jay helfert]

Who would ever of thunk that a Fats thread would have brought so many passionate responses from our friends here at onepocket.org?

The debate rages about how well he played, whether Tevis had him in mind when he wrote his book, whether Fats would have been "Fats" if there was no book, etc;.....

Let us all take a moment, close our eyes and picture Mr. Fats responding to each reply in this thread. No matter how passionate you felt about something, he would have surely cut thru all the crap and told you about HIM.

And you would have ended up liking it too

If Fats could talk for himself, he would be leading us all around by the nose. I'm telling you the guy was in a class by himself. He single handedly won over the judge after the Johnston City bust. True story! He got up on the stand and launched into a dialogue about gambling and hustlers that won everybody over. He convinced the judge that the pool players were no more hustlers than anyone else who sells something or works for a living to get ahead. After he was done testifying, the judge threw the case out and the pool players got their money back. No one else could have pulled that off. NO ONE!