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  • #31
    Originally posted by lfigueroa
    McGoorty, hardcover, first edition :-)

    I'm kinda surprised no one has cited "The Hustler and The Champ" yet.

    "Wanderone was a fine pocket-billiards player, a skilled professional who easily fleeced farmers and sailors. But Wanderone never possessed the skill of pool's most celebrated champions. He could ape it, certainly, like all tricksters he could claim the prowess of others as his own. 'I played them all, and I beat them all!' he would crow. But this was a lie. Wanderone never competed in Mosconi's world-tournament level, never competed against Ponzi and Greenleaf and Joe 'Meatman' Balsis in structured competition, and maybe it was because he lacked the skill to do so. But this was not true of all hustlers. An example was John 'Rags' Fitzpatrick, remembered as perhaps the finest one-pocket player ever."

    TH&TC, page 120

    Lou Figueroa

    Half of this is probably bullshit but what the hell. Again, from The Bank Shot:


    "Me and Willie are about the same age, and back in our younger days we played every game on the table together, only every match was for the cash, which meant I was the automatic winner. Willie Mosconi is a tremendous poolplayer; in fact, I rate him second only to Greenleaf among the all-time tournament stars. But when it came to playing for the cash, I was in a class by myself. So every time I played Willie for the gold in Philadelphia, I whacked him out clean."

    "I whacked out all the fun players in one-pocket, I mean every last one of them. I played Andrew Ponzi, who really liked to wager on his ability, two days and two nights in Vineland, New Jersey, and I busted him flatter than a praline. We played one-pocket even for 48 straight hours in Vineland. Ponzi would run 8 & out and I would run 8 & out, but in the end I stuck him up like he was a two year old baby, even though he was a tremendous player and world champion like three times."

    Gotta love the Fat Man's bullshit.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by SJDinPHX
      Beatle, Rod, and Fred
      His demeanor was much like two of our most prominent posters here on 1p.org (care to hazard a guess)
      Dick,

      I think you underestimate the Fatman's abilities. He could give anybody 10-6 and play 6 ahead in the BS department and leave them begging for their mommies. He could talk forever about himself and how great he was. And I loved listening to everything he ever said. I only saw him "live" once but I saw him on TV many times. I only wish I could have been around him in his prime.

      And I only compare him to one of our most prominent posters, not two. But he'd whack that one out for the gold, anytime, anywhere, in the BS department. The primary difference being that I don't really think he ever believed all his BS. He knew it was a show and that people loved that stuff.

      When I was 18 yrs. old you could ask anybody to name a poolplayer and they would say Mosconi or Minnesota Fats. They were the only two players people knew of. Did Fats do his job or what?

      Deek

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by SJDinPHX
        He should have kissed him, instead of suing him. But I guess that was a necessary step to gaining that notariety.

        He is definately worthy of a "lifetime award" of some sort...maybe even a "special" award of some kind, due to the colorful character that he always was.
        By the way, did the case go to trail or was it settled first ?

        Originally posted by gulfportdoc
        "New York Fats" was an exceedingly clever con man who stole the persona of "Minnestoa Fats" from Walter Tevis.
        Doc, I think con man is a little unfair. He was a hustler, pool and short cards and a promoter, but I've been around a lot of con men and that wasn't him. I agree with Fred, Tevis stole his persona and should have been sued. maybe you know the answer, was the case settled and if so why?
        Rod.
        Rod.

        Rodney Stephens.
        (e-mail) rod.stephens0105@att.net(e-mail) #713-973-0503 is now working

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by fred bentivegna
          Just to qualify myself, and defer to San Man's unfounded point that I havent given Tevis his due, I read the book within minutes of its publication. I also read the precursor to the book, the article he wrote for Playboy magazine. Once I got the book I read it cover to cover. As soon as I got to the last page and finished that, I flipped back to the first page and started all over. I have read that book a minimum of five times. To say, Doc, that the character in the book didnt resemble Fats in the slightest is a remark that I wont let stand. How many great, FAT, big money pool hustlers were there in the US at that time? How many of them had a nervous tic? How many of them played in Bensingers (Benningtons)? Lets see, how many pool players were as "dainty and meticulous" around the table as the book Fats? Certainly not me, or 90% of the pool players that I know. Most of us are slobs around the table, if nobodys looking, I might spit on the floor. How about the "light on the feet?" All the fat people I know are light on their feet, right? Let's next check on "coiffed," like the expensively coiffed Fats in the book. Anybody ever see Fatty with a hair out of place, or a dirty or rumpled shirt, or anything other than expensive shoes, shirt and slacks? Apparently you didnt spend much time around Fats, Doc. Finally, and this is really a tough one to get past, how many of them were named "Fats?"

          Now to the "Tevis never heard of him." Here below is a link to a Sports Illustrated story about hustlers that mentions New York Fats in an article dated March 1961, seven months BEFORE the first Johnston City tourn. Tevis also knew, and had been to Bensingers as is evidenced by his description of the room in the book. But the strongest case to be made, and no one has even asked me about it, was his knowledge of that shit little pool room on State Street where he writes about the Tom Smith character. I name the date, the place, and the guy, and everybody just blows right past that. This is getting to be like talking to my ex wife. Ignore, deny, and change to subject.
          So Tevis knew about an obscure Tom Smith, but Minnesota Fats came to him in a literary apparition. Just because most of you never heard of Tom Smith aint an argument. There are plenty of people still around that did.
          I did a little more research on the subject of Tevis writing The Hustler. It was written in 1956 while Tevis was both attending Univ. of Kentucky and working at the Kentucky Highway Department. Here is a quote from Tevis regarding the story:

          It was written in Bud Guthrie's graduate creative writing class and was called "The Best in the Country". [published in "Esquire"] I've published 13 short stories about pool players in various national magazines and then I published the novel. I stole the title for "The Hustler" from a story I had published in "Playboy", also called "The Hustler", but not really resembling the novel.

          I don't know where Tevis could possibly have either met or heard of Wanderone in the early or mid 1950's living in Lexington, KY while working and attending UK .

          All the references made regarding Johnson City are not applicable. The Hustler pre-dated Johnson City by 6 years.

          The nickname "Fats" was common in pre-war America. I'm surprised that "Omaha Fats" didn't try to cash in on the novel. He certainly had the gift of gab; and he was reportedly able to out-talk Wanderone. Fats Waller was a famous jazz pianist. There were several famous "Fats". Just as the nicknames "Slim", "Tiny", etc. were popular.

          As you know, prior to the 1960's most everyone dressed well. I recall going to baseball games in the 50's, where it was typical for guys to wear jackets and ties. Sharp dressers were common, as were well shined shoes, and slicked back hair. People had better manners, and had more class.

          Wanderone simply stole the Minnesota Fats name to make his own fame and fortune, just as Clifford Irving tried to pull off a grand hoax with the Howard Hughes tale. Wanderone got away with it, Irving didn't.

          None of this, of course, has anything to do with one-pocket. If Wanderone deserves to be included, it should be based upon his 1P prowess, or his exceptional promotion of 1P.

          Doc

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by gulfportdoc
            I did a little more research on the subject of Tevis writing The Hustler. It was written in 1956 while Tevis was both attending Univ. of Kentucky and working at the Kentucky Highway Department. Here is a quote from Tevis regarding the story:

            It was written in Bud Guthrie's graduate creative writing class and was called "The Best in the Country". [published in "Esquire"] I've published 13 short stories about pool players in various national magazines and then I published the novel. I stole the title for "The Hustler" from a story I had published in "Playboy", also called "The Hustler", but not really resembling the novel.

            I don't know where Tevis could possibly have either met or heard of Wanderone in the early or mid 1950's living in Lexington, KY while working and attending UK .

            All the references made regarding Johnson City are not applicable. The Hustler pre-dated Johnson City by 6 years.

            The nickname "Fats" was common in pre-war America. I'm surprised that "Omaha Fats" didn't try to cash in on the novel. He certainly had the gift of gab; and he was reportedly able to out-talk Wanderone. Fats Waller was a famous jazz pianist. There were several famous "Fats". Just as the nicknames "Slim", "Tiny", etc. were popular.

            As you know, prior to the 1960's most everyone dressed well. I recall going to baseball games in the 50's, where it was typical for guys to wear jackets and ties. Sharp dressers were common, as were well shined shoes, and slicked back hair. People had better manners, and had more class.

            Wanderone simply stole the Minnesota Fats name to make his own fame and fortune, just as Clifford Irving tried to pull off a grand hoax with the Howard Hughes tale. Wanderone got away with it, Irving didn't.

            None of this, of course, has anything to do with one-pocket. If Wanderone deserves to be included, it should be based upon his 1P prowess, or his exceptional promotion of 1P.

            Doc
            I don't think your comparison with Irving, or your "got away with it" comment are quite right. The movie (right before Johnston City), and the resurgent media interest in pool discovered Fats, and Fats the genuine character was ready for the attention and he seized it and ran with it. 50 years later and Fast Eddie wannabe's are still trying; meanwhile, Fats was up to the task, and then some -- even beyond the world of pool.
            "One Pocket, it's an epidemic and there ain't no cure."
            -- Strawberry Brooks

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by NH Steve
              I don't think your comparison with Irving, or your "got away with it" comment are quite right. The movie (right before Johnston City), and the resurgent media interest in pool discovered Fats, and Fats the genuine character was ready for the attention and he seized it and ran with it. 50 years later and Fast Eddie wannabe's are still trying; meanwhile, Fats was up to the task, and then some -- even beyond the world of pool.
              Steve,

              Your take on all this stuff may be a little skewed. You have fallen under Fatty's (and Beards) spell.

              You were NOT there, and you are relying on 3rd or 4th party recollections.

              Fat's to his credit, did "seize the moment"... much like the women who spilled hot coffee on herself, and sued McDonalds (and won) for large $$$.

              That made him a hero, in the eyes of the pool world...including ME...But, does that make it right ?

              Even if Tevis did (or did not) remember a "Fat guy", who was a great pool hustler. That is a moot point.

              He was just telling a story, and a pretty damn good one...I doubt if he cared who were the principles, or where they came from.

              Even if he did...so what. The only one who made an issue out of it...was Fat's, which was in keeping with his view of himself..."who else could it be but ME" ?

              I never said he wasn't "triple smart".I did however say...If it not were Tevis' efforts at telling a very classic story (which became the best thing that ever happened to pool) and an award winning movie, I still maintain, that Fat's would still be unknown to 99.999 % of the population.

              You can argue that fact, until you are blue in the face...but you cannot change it. Thats what it was. !!!

              Comment


              • #37
                It’s kind of interesting to think that Robert Rossen, the guy who adapted the book, wrote the screenplay, and directed the movie “The Hustler”, may have actually seen Rudolf Wanderone (Fats) in action way before Walter Tevis would ever have had a chance to. Rossen grew up on the lower east side in NYC and hustled a little pool himself (besides doing a little prizefighting) in the 1920s. Wanderone would have been hustling pool in NYC at roughly the same time. Walter Tevis wasn’t born till the end of the 1920s and grew up in San Francisco.

                Comment


                • #38
                  I like Dick's point about having an Honorary Award or something for the promotion of 1 pocket or something like that. I nominate Steve Booth for this award because without him there would be no HOF for 1 pocket and bank pool players.
                  www.ontherailtv.com

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Fast Lenny
                    I like Dick's point about having an Honorary Award or something for the promotion of 1 pocket or something like that. I nominate Steve Booth for this award because without him there would be no HOF for 1 pocket and bank pool players.
                    i second that nomination for steve booth and consideration should be given to fats for this award also. seems to me up until now there has not been much disagreement or controversy over the deservedness of the current members of the hall of fame. there have been several other people nominated so far this year that also there seems to be a concensus about their skill and deservedness to be in the HOF(i.e. clem, sjd, for example ). before we nominate controversial figures we should be sure to get in the ones there is more of a concensus of their worthiness. just my 2 cents.
                    Last edited by lll; 11-03-2009, 08:15 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Thanks guys, and I promise to accept your nomination and second once I've reached the twenty year career threshold. I figure I'm up to 5- 1/2 years as a significant presence on the national scene at this point...but I appreciate the thought
                      "One Pocket, it's an epidemic and there ain't no cure."
                      -- Strawberry Brooks

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by gulfportdoc
                        I did a little more research on the subject of Tevis writing The Hustler. It was written in 1956 while Tevis was both attending Univ. of Kentucky and working at the Kentucky Highway Department. Here is a quote from Tevis regarding the story:

                        It was written in Bud Guthrie's graduate creative writing class and was called "The Best in the Country". [published in "Esquire"] I've published 13 short stories about pool players in various national magazines and then I published the novel. I stole the title for "The Hustler" from a story I had published in "Playboy", also called "The Hustler", but not really resembling the novel.

                        I don't know where Tevis could possibly have either met or heard of Wanderone in the early or mid 1950's living in Lexington, KY while working and attending UK .

                        All the references made regarding Johnson City are not applicable. The Hustler pre-dated Johnson City by 6 years.

                        The nickname "Fats" was common in pre-war America. I'm surprised that "Omaha Fats" didn't try to cash in on the novel. He certainly had the gift of gab; and he was reportedly able to out-talk Wanderone. Fats Waller was a famous jazz pianist. There were several famous "Fats". Just as the nicknames "Slim", "Tiny", etc. were popular.

                        As you know, prior to the 1960's most everyone dressed well. I recall going to baseball games in the 50's, where it was typical for guys to wear jackets and ties. Sharp dressers were common, as were well shined shoes, and slicked back hair. People had better manners, and had more class.

                        Wanderone simply stole the Minnesota Fats name to make his own fame and fortune, just as Clifford Irving tried to pull off a grand hoax with the Howard Hughes tale. Wanderone got away with it, Irving didn't.

                        None of this, of course, has anything to do with one-pocket. If Wanderone deserves to be included, it should be based upon his 1P prowess, or his exceptional promotion of 1P.

                        Doc


                        Doc, here is ammo for both sides of the argument, from TH&TC, pages 200-201:

                        "He (Fats) made this startling claim (being MF) despite never having set foot in Minnesota. Neither was Wanderone a particularly good dresser, and he certainly had none of Gleason's haughty grace."

                        "Walter Tevis said Fats was a work of fiction -- that he was as real as Donald Duck -- and that if the character resembled anybody, it would be dignified Willie Mosconi."

                        But further down, on the same page is this:

                        "The terrible irony, of course, was that Willie Mosconi himself was an unwitting party to what may have been a monstrous deception. In an interview with the Long Beach Independent-Press-Telegram, Mosconi said the Fats character 'was patterned after a real live pool hustler known as New York Fats.' He would regret those words for the rest of his life."

                        Lou Figueroa

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by demonrho
                          It’s kind of interesting to think that Robert Rossen, the guy who adapted the book, wrote the screenplay, and directed the movie “The Hustler”, may have actually seen Rudolf Wanderone (Fats) in action way before Walter Tevis would ever have had a chance to. Rossen grew up on the lower east side in NYC and hustled a little pool himself (besides doing a little prizefighting) in the 1920s. Wanderone would have been hustling pool in NYC at roughly the same time. Walter Tevis wasn’t born till the end of the 1920s and grew up in San Francisco.
                          You bring up an interesting point. I hadn't been aware of Rossen's background. It may be that the film version of The Hustler was much more than equal parts of Rossen/Tevis. I'm grateful that he didn't allow his communist background to leak into that great film.

                          Doc

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by androd
                            By the way, did the case go to trail or was it settled first ?



                            Doc, I think con man is a little unfair. He was a hustler, pool and short cards and a promoter, but I've been around a lot of con men and that wasn't him. I agree with Fred, Tevis stole his persona and should have been sued. maybe you know the answer, was the case settled and if so why?
                            Rod.
                            Rod

                            This was all I could find on the alledged suit. Probably just muddies the water a little more.



                            Minnesota Fats
                            From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
                            Jump to: navigation, search
                            This article is about the original fictional character. For the real-life pool player who adopted this nickname, see Rudolf Wanderone Jr..
                            George Hegerman is a fictional pool hustler, better known by the nickname "Minnesota Fats", and featured as a prominent character in Walter Tevis's novels The Hustler and The Color of Money. Actor Jackie Gleason played this part in the 1961 film version of The Hustler, based upon the novel. Gleason was nominated for an Academy Award[1] and a Golden Globe Award[2] for Best Supporting Actor, and was honored as Best Supporting Actor by the National Board of Review of Motion Pictures.[3] The Minnesota Fats character did not appear in the 1986 film version of The Color of Money, which had an entirely different storyline than did the novel.

                            Real-life professional pool player and entertainer Rudolf Wanderone Jr. was known as "New York Fats" (among other nicknames) when the book was published. He initially wanted to sue but, realizing that there was more money to be made from the success of the book and subsequent movie, changed his nickname to match the fiction. He claimed that the author had based the character upon himself and that a financial settlement had been made to avoid a lawsuit but Walter Tevis has consistently denied this.[4] Rudolf Wanderone then went on to play himself under the name Minnesota Fats in the 1971 movie, The Player.[5]

                            [edit] References

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              nnsdkk5%#$--3@2

                              ?Allsdfapp,sdf],dkkcnmkjksd;;;ooelllxxx llliislls[ sdk;';aaldkjdiiv,vllsdajja;;,,.skjksd;''
                              dl;;d;;dllbiie.l4i;d;asd''';v.l;flgkgksdla;;sa;;a'


                              the Beard

                              (Am trying a new language, Gibberish. Maybe somebody can read this and finally absorb what I'm trying to say. English aint working too well.)

                              Incidentally, if Fats gets nominated for some kind of Teachers and Promoters, he wont get my vote. Now for those who didnt get that, I'll be kind and repeat it in Gibberish:
                              ,,aldlkldjeilld' dlldpoanjhadf''' adf;;dkkgkppdkka;;skkcl;;;sdjkpolaeo[pps;;s
                              dlld;;dflkgfl;;g;;gjjjdiuepope;;dl;1020933$4^^&&8((()0
                              New stuff on my site. 100s of pgs. of pool goodness
                              www.bankingwiththebeard.com

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Knew about Tom Smith but not Fats

                                Originally posted by gulfportdoc
                                .....I don't know where Tevis could possibly have either met or heard of Wanderone in the early or mid 1950's living in Lexington, KY while working and attending UK .

                                All the references made regarding Johnson City are not applicable. The Hustler pre-dated Johnson City by 6 years.

                                The nickname "Fats" was common in pre-war America. I'm surprised that "Omaha Fats" didn't try to cash in on the novel. He certainly had the gift of gab; and he was reportedly able to out-talk Wanderone. Fats Waller was a famous jazz pianist. There were several famous "Fats". Just as the nicknames "Slim", "Tiny", etc. were popular.

                                As you know, prior to the 1960's most everyone dressed well. I recall going to baseball games in the 50's, where it was typical for guys to wear jackets and ties. Sharp dressers were common, as were well shined shoes, and slicked back hair. People had better manners, and had more class.

                                Wanderone simply stole the Minnesota Fats name to make his own fame and fortune, just as Clifford Irving tried to pull off a grand hoax with the Howard Hughes tale. Wanderone got away with it, Irving didn't.

                                Doc

                                Doc, did you just stop reading or did the screen go blank when you came to this part:

                                "Now to the "Tevis never heard of him." Here below is a link to a Sports Illustrated story about hustlers that mentions New York Fats in an article dated March 1961, seven months BEFORE the first Johnston City tourn. Tevis also knew, and had been to Bensingers as is evidenced by his description of the room in the book. But the strongest case to be made, and no one has even asked me about it, was his knowledge of that shit little pool room on State Street where he writes about the Tom Smith character. I name the date, the place, and the guy, and everybody just blows right past that. This is getting to be like talking to my ex wife. Ignore, deny, and change to subject.
                                So Tevis knew about an obscure Tom Smith, but Minnesota Fats came to him in a literary apparition. Just because most of you never heard of Tom Smith aint an argument. There are plenty of people still around that did.
                                "

                                the Beard
                                New stuff on my site. 100s of pgs. of pool goodness
                                www.bankingwiththebeard.com

                                Comment

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