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  • The Real Price off a Free Scratch

    Her is what people didnt no but will no no. I will give up one off my Hustling Secrets. And how its done. Witch I Figured out myself.

    Dave is getting 18 to 4 and the breack and a free scratch. I will breack the game down completly. And after I tell you how its done. You will know howe too do ityourself.

    I will give you what the Scratch is worth first. Then I will breack the whole game down.

    First we are talking about the start off the game.Not during the game because all the prices and odds are made for the beginning off the game. And all prices once the game starts changes.. Because off the score and the positions off the balls.

    1. The qouistion is what is a ball worth. One ball fromDave is worth 4 and a half balls to the other player. If you divide 18 into 4 that will be the answer 4 and a half balls to one. That is the correct math.

    2. Davee is getting all the breacks. So he is getting all off the other players breacks too? The breack is worth two balls every game. We have too do it this way so we can make a price for every game. Not just the second game Witch he is also getting the breack.

    4. So now it breacks down to another 2 ball spot every game. And 18 to 4 becomes 20 to 4 this is what the spot is that the player is getting.

    5. Lets go on too the rest off the spot. A Free scratch and what it is worth. If one off Daves balls is worth 4 and a half balls. Then one scratch is equal to one off Daves balls. Witch is worth 4 and a half balls. So one off Daves balls is worth 4 and a half balls witch = one scratch..

    So a scratch is worth 4 and a half ballsto DAve because thats the value off each ball 4 and a half balls to one. Because thats the price and value off one ball from Dave compaired too the other players spot. 18 to 4 divide the numbers and the math will be correct.

    6.Now we can do all the math. 18 to 4 and the breack and a free scratch. We start out with 18 balls he is getting spotted we add two balls because thats what the breack is worth. And he is getting all the breacks. witch makes the game 20 to 4 and we add 4 and a half balls for the scratch. witch means the totale spot off the game value in balls is 24 and a half to 4. This math is correct. And this is howe you breack down the game.

    7. I will give two more exampils If two players are playing even 8 to 8. Then one free scratch is worth one ball only. Because thats the price and the value off a scratch. Any scratch will only cost one ball. Some people might say its worth more WHY if every scratch costs one ball. Howe can it be worth more.. But its not. And a scratch is always only one ball. Because any scratch he takes will cost him one ball either player. Not saying that 3 scratches in a row you loose the game.

    8.And if a player is playing another player 8 to 4 breack apeace then every scratch the player going too 4 is worth two balls. So too make the scratches fair and equale the rules need too be changed. Because each scratch has a different value and price . According to the spot.

    9 IF a player is getting 8 to 4 then it should cost the better player twice the amount off balls for each scratch because off the spot. Weacker players have gotten short changed thier whole life with this rule. If they both scratch 5 times each. THey would be playing 5 to 5 witch is a even game. Not 8 to 4. This is like smartning up the sucker.

    10.And the amount off balls that the better player is spotting. Will determine what it costs him for each scratch. And her is why rules need too change. Theese rules were made for players playing even. Not with very big spots And those rules are not fair and should be changed. Because they are 100% in the favor off the better player.

    11.One more thing that is important. Is a free scratch more important when you break or your opponent breacks? . With two people playing even breack apeace. But one player getting a free scratch. THe scratch is worth more to the player when gitting the brack. I no some people will not agree with this. BUt I will give the aswer when we her from someone who disagrees. And hir what they have too say..

    12. This is how you figure out what a scratch is worth. And the only people I ever told this to were two good players. And they said thanks and agreed with it. Because the math does not lie. People lie. I hope that I explained it were you can understand it. Grammer is not my longsuite.I do what I can with what I have. And thats all sI can do. Even in a pool game.

    13. You might say what a big spot. Yes it is a big spot. But the players arent fools they no what they are doing too and by saying someone has the nuts is redicoulous. Why would they play if they couldnt win. Its all silly and idiotic. People play because they can win. And both people think they can win. That why they play. And a weeker player has a lot off pressure on him knoweing he is playing a champion.

    14..And people knock games for no reason. Because they want too show howe smart they are. And to say that someone only will play with the nuts. Is a sucker statement. Because if a player knowes who he is playing. Cant both players ask for what game they want. It takes two too make a game.

    15.And if the weeker player can ask for whatever game he wants.And does not have too play unless he wants too and he can waite tell he gets the game he wants or dont play. But to say someone will only play with the nuts is silly when he can waite and ask for whatever game he wants. Does not sound like the nuts too me. And a lot off games with the nuts go down the toilet.

    16 I hope everyone learns something From this. If not. Then look to do something different with your time. Because our time in life is priceless. Thats to everyone who has taken the time too read this. AB. MIDDLER Dancing on a pool table.

  • #2
    Wisdom

    I always figured a ball and a half for the break,you say 2.Close enough.The diamond system is predicated on running english,medium speed which is why you cant always use it.There is a lot of wisdom in your calculations but more in what you haven't said.Thanks for the double -spacing,you are a pro and I always appreciate your words here.Cheers my friend,Bob

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Artie Bodendorfer
      Her is what people didnt no but will no no. I will give up one off my Hustling Secrets. And how its done. Witch I Figured out myself.

      Dave is getting 18 to 4 and the breack and a free scratch. I will breack the game down completly. And after I tell you how its done. You will know howe too do ityourself.

      I will give you what the Scratch is worth first. Then I will breack the whole game down.

      First we are talking about the start off the game.Not during the game because all the prices and odds are made for the beginning off the game. And all prices once the game starts changes.. Because off the score and the positions off the balls.

      1. The qouistion is what is a ball worth. One ball fromDave is worth 4 and a half balls to the other player. If you divide 18 into 4 that will be the answer 4 and a half balls to one. That is the correct math.

      2. Davee is getting all the breacks. So he is getting all off the other players breacks too? The breack is worth two balls every game. We have too do it this way so we can make a price for every game. Not just the second game Witch he is also getting the breack.

      4. So now it breacks down to another 2 ball spot every game. And 18 to 4 becomes 20 to 4 this is what the spot is that the player is getting.

      5. Lets go on too the rest off the spot. A Free scratch and what it is worth. If one off Daves balls is worth 4 and a half balls. Then one scratch is equal to one off Daves balls. Witch is worth 4 and a half balls. So one off Daves balls is worth 4 and a half balls witch = one scratch..

      So a scratch is worth 4 and a half ballsto DAve because thats the value off each ball 4 and a half balls to one. Because thats the price and value off one ball from Dave compaired too the other players spot. 18 to 4 divide the numbers and the math will be correct.

      6.Now we can do all the math. 18 to 4 and the breack and a free scratch. We start out with 18 balls he is getting spotted we add two balls because thats what the breack is worth. And he is getting all the breacks. witch makes the game 20 to 4 and we add 4 and a half balls for the scratch. witch means the totale spot off the game value in balls is 24 and a half to 4. This math is correct. And this is howe you breack down the game.

      7. I will give two more exampils If two players are playing even 8 to 8. Then one free scratch is worth one ball only. Because thats the price and the value off a scratch. Any scratch will only cost one ball. Some people might say its worth more WHY if every scratch costs one ball. Howe can it be worth more.. But its not. And a scratch is always only one ball. Because any scratch he takes will cost him one ball either player. Not saying that 3 scratches in a row you loose the game.

      8.And if a player is playing another player 8 to 4 breack apeace then every scratch the player going too 4 is worth two balls. So too make the scratches fair and equale the rules need too be changed. Because each scratch has a different value and price . According to the spot.

      9 IF a player is getting 8 to 4 then it should cost the better player twice the amount off balls for each scratch because off the spot. Weacker players have gotten short changed thier whole life with this rule. If they both scratch 5 times each. THey would be playing 5 to 5 witch is a even game. Not 8 to 4. This is like smartning up the sucker.

      10.And the amount off balls that the better player is spotting. Will determine what it costs him for each scratch. And her is why rules need too change. Theese rules were made for players playing even. Not with very big spots And those rules are not fair and should be changed. Because they are 100% in the favor off the better player.

      11.One more thing that is important. Is a free scratch more important when you break or your opponent breacks? . With two people playing even breack apeace. But one player getting a free scratch. THe scratch is worth more to the player when gitting the brack. I no some people will not agree with this. BUt I will give the aswer when we her from someone who disagrees. And hir what they have too say..

      12. This is how you figure out what a scratch is worth. And the only people I ever told this to were two good players. And they said thanks and agreed with it. Because the math does not lie. People lie. I hope that I explained it were you can understand it. Grammer is not my longsuite.I do what I can with what I have. And thats all sI can do. Even in a pool game.

      13. You might say what a big spot. Yes it is a big spot. But the players arent fools they no what they are doing too and by saying someone has the nuts is redicoulous. Why would they play if they couldnt win. Its all silly and idiotic. People play because they can win. And both people think they can win. That why they play. And a weeker player has a lot off pressure on him knoweing he is playing a champion.

      14..And people knock games for no reason. Because they want too show howe smart they are. And to say that someone only will play with the nuts. Is a sucker statement. Because if a player knowes who he is playing. Cant both players ask for what game they want. It takes two too make a game.

      15.And if the weeker player can ask for whatever game he wants.And does not have too play unless he wants too and he can waite tell he gets the game he wants or dont play. But to say someone will only play with the nuts is silly when he can waite and ask for whatever game he wants. Does not sound like the nuts too me. And a lot off games with the nuts go down the toilet.

      16 I hope everyone learns something From this. If not. Then look to do something different with your time. Because our time in life is priceless. Thats to everyone who has taken the time too read this. AB. MIDDLER Dancing on a pool table.
      Artie,

      Glad to have you posting again. Now that you are using the enter key I can easily finish your posts without effort. (it used to be very difficult to read without the spaces between lines)

      thanks for sharing,

      Dud

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Dudley
        Artie,

        Glad to have you posting again. Now that you are using the enter key I can easily finish your posts without effort. (it used to be very difficult to read without the spaces between lines)

        thanks for sharing,

        Dud
        You understand this ? I'm impressed. 24 &1/2 to 4.
        I doubt if any of these guys will play him 24/4 one game and 25/4 the next.
        Rod.
        Rod.

        Rodney Stephens.
        (e-mail) rod.stephens0105@att.net(e-mail) #713-973-0503 is now working

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Artie Bodendorfer
          Her is what people didnt no but will no no. I will give up one off my Hustling Secrets. And how its done. Witch I Figured out myself.

          Dave is getting 18 to 4 and the breack and a free scratch. I will breack the game down completly. And after I tell you how its done. You will know howe too do ityourself.

          I will give you what the Scratch is worth first. Then I will breack the whole game down.

          First we are talking about the start off the game.Not during the game because all the prices and odds are made for the beginning off the game. And all prices once the game starts changes.. Because off the score and the positions off the balls.

          1. The qouistion is what is a ball worth. One ball fromDave is worth 4 and a half balls to the other player. If you divide 18 into 4 that will be the answer 4 and a half balls to one. That is the correct math.

          2. Davee is getting all the breacks. So he is getting all off the other players breacks too? The breack is worth two balls every game. We have too do it this way so we can make a price for every game. Not just the second game Witch he is also getting the breack.

          4. So now it breacks down to another 2 ball spot every game. And 18 to 4 becomes 20 to 4 this is what the spot is that the player is getting.

          5. Lets go on too the rest off the spot. A Free scratch and what it is worth. If one off Daves balls is worth 4 and a half balls. Then one scratch is equal to one off Daves balls. Witch is worth 4 and a half balls. So one off Daves balls is worth 4 and a half balls witch = one scratch..

          So a scratch is worth 4 and a half ballsto DAve because thats the value off each ball 4 and a half balls to one. Because thats the price and value off one ball from Dave compaired too the other players spot. 18 to 4 divide the numbers and the math will be correct.

          6.Now we can do all the math. 18 to 4 and the breack and a free scratch. We start out with 18 balls he is getting spotted we add two balls because thats what the breack is worth. And he is getting all the breacks. witch makes the game 20 to 4 and we add 4 and a half balls for the scratch. witch means the totale spot off the game value in balls is 24 and a half to 4. This math is correct. And this is howe you breack down the game.

          7. I will give two more exampils If two players are playing even 8 to 8. Then one free scratch is worth one ball only. Because thats the price and the value off a scratch. Any scratch will only cost one ball. Some people might say its worth more WHY if every scratch costs one ball. Howe can it be worth more.. But its not. And a scratch is always only one ball. Because any scratch he takes will cost him one ball either player. Not saying that 3 scratches in a row you loose the game.

          8.And if a player is playing another player 8 to 4 breack apeace then every scratch the player going too 4 is worth two balls. So too make the scratches fair and equale the rules need too be changed. Because each scratch has a different value and price . According to the spot.

          9 IF a player is getting 8 to 4 then it should cost the better player twice the amount off balls for each scratch because off the spot. Weacker players have gotten short changed thier whole life with this rule. If they both scratch 5 times each. THey would be playing 5 to 5 witch is a even game. Not 8 to 4. This is like smartning up the sucker.

          10.And the amount off balls that the better player is spotting. Will determine what it costs him for each scratch. And her is why rules need too change. Theese rules were made for players playing even. Not with very big spots And those rules are not fair and should be changed. Because they are 100% in the favor off the better player.

          11.One more thing that is important. Is a free scratch more important when you break or your opponent breacks? . With two people playing even breack apeace. But one player getting a free scratch. THe scratch is worth more to the player when gitting the brack. I no some people will not agree with this. BUt I will give the aswer when we her from someone who disagrees. And hir what they have too say..

          12. This is how you figure out what a scratch is worth. And the only people I ever told this to were two good players. And they said thanks and agreed with it. Because the math does not lie. People lie. I hope that I explained it were you can understand it. Grammer is not my longsuite.I do what I can with what I have. And thats all sI can do. Even in a pool game.

          13. You might say what a big spot. Yes it is a big spot. But the players arent fools they no what they are doing too and by saying someone has the nuts is redicoulous. Why would they play if they couldnt win. Its all silly and idiotic. People play because they can win. And both people think they can win. That why they play. And a weeker player has a lot off pressure on him knoweing he is playing a champion.

          14..And people knock games for no reason. Because they want too show howe smart they are. And to say that someone only will play with the nuts. Is a sucker statement. Because if a player knowes who he is playing. Cant both players ask for what game they want. It takes two too make a game.

          15.And if the weeker player can ask for whatever game he wants.And does not have too play unless he wants too and he can waite tell he gets the game he wants or dont play. But to say someone will only play with the nuts is silly when he can waite and ask for whatever game he wants. Does not sound like the nuts too me. And a lot off games with the nuts go down the toilet.

          16 I hope everyone learns something From this. If not. Then look to do something different with your time. Because our time in life is priceless. Thats to everyone who has taken the time too read this. AB. MIDDLER Dancing on a pool table.

          Artie, I'd have to respectfully disagree with one thing. In #7, you say that if 2 players are playing even then a free scratch is only worth one ball. I feel that this is in error because if I were playing someone who laid down a real good break shot, or put me in a very bad trap, and I could just lag the cueball into the stack, leaving my opponent in a worse trap, I feel this is definitely worth more than one ball! It could easily be a 4 or 5 ball swing in a situation like that.

          I learned this years ago from Joey Spaeth. Gary Spaeth used to spot Shannon Daulton 9-7, the breaks and his first scratch was free. This was when Shannon was about 15 or 16 years old and hadn't developed into the player he later became. Shannon never won with the spot, BUT as Joey said if he EVER smartened up and started taking intentional scratches like I mentioned above then Gary would have to take that spot away. Could be that Shannon knew this and it's why he didn't use the intentional scratch that way! He got a lot of good experience playing Gary $20 & $30 one pocket that way. BTW, I staked Gary for over 20 years.


          Sherm
          Just more hot air!


          Sherm

          Sherm Custom Cues
          Cincinnati, Ohio

          Comment


          • #6
            What you said Artie, about how a scratch should cost the stronger player more than the weaker player in a big spot situation -- that is interesting. The weaker player is also way more likely to scratch (accidentally, anyway). It sounds kind of like the different value in trading scratches when one player is on the hill and the other player needs say five balls -- a scratch is a lot more costly in terms of the balance in the score to the player that is/was on the hill than to the player that goes from needing 5 balls to needing 6 balls, right? That seems like the same principle that you are talking about with big handicaps to open the game....
            "One Pocket, it's an epidemic and there ain't no cure."
            -- Strawberry Brooks

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by cuesmith
              Artie, I'd have to respectfully disagree with one thing. In #7, you say that if 2 players are playing even then a free scratch is only worth one ball. I feel that this is in error because if I were playing someone who laid down a real good break shot, or put me in a very bad trap, and I could just lag the cueball into the stack, leaving my opponent in a worse trap, I feel this is definitely worth more than one ball! It could easily be a 4 or 5 ball swing in a situation like that.



              Sherm
              Originally posted by Artie Bodendorfer
              First we are talking about the start off the game.Not during the game because all the prices and odds are made for the beginning off the game. And all prices once the game starts changes.. Because off the score and the positions off the balls.
              cuesmith,

              Don't mean to butt in too much on your post but AB did say this is the value before the balls are broke.

              Dennis

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Cowboy Dennis
                cuesmith,

                Don't mean to butt in too much on your post but AB did say this is the value before the balls are broke.

                Dennis
                Dennis, yes I understand that but I feel that the possibility of using an intentional to your advantage would still have to be a factor in considering the value of the spot. If I were getting a free scratch, I'd be looking for opportunities to use an intentional at all times. It can be a very strong move! I feel that it should be at least as valuable as the break, before the balls are broke, afterwards depending on the layout, could be much more! JMHO

                Sherm
                Last edited by cuesmith; 12-02-2010, 10:25 PM.
                Just more hot air!


                Sherm

                Sherm Custom Cues
                Cincinnati, Ohio

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by cuesmith
                  Dennis, yes I understand that but I feel that the possibility of using an intentional to your advantage would still have to be a factor in considering the value of the spot. If I were getting a free scratch, I'd be looking for opportunities to use an intentional at all times. It can be a very strong move!
                  JMHO

                  Sherm
                  cuesmith,

                  I was reading this thread before I went to work this morning(the thread where AB first mentioned this) and it reminded me of an NFL coach throwing a red flag to challenge a call. Considering that the intentional(or free) foul needs to be pre-announced, if reports are correct, then I'd feel like a fool to use it in one situation and need it much more a few shots later but not have it. You'd also never know exactly when to use it because you never know when the game will end. It's a tricky thing to measure it's value.

                  Dennis

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I'm interested in how the man getting spotted can make the better players game 2,3,4 or 4&1/2 balls higher just because the guy getting spotted might take a foul. This is inane, the spot is worth practically nothing. I say again, none of these guys giving 17,18 to 4 and a free scratch, will give him 21,22 or 24 to 4.
                    Rod.
                    PS, Where are you Skin ?
                    Rod.

                    Rodney Stephens.
                    (e-mail) rod.stephens0105@att.net(e-mail) #713-973-0503 is now working

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by androd
                      I'm interested in how the man getting spotted can make the better players game 2,3,4 or 4&1/2 balls higher just because the guy getting spotted might take a foul. This is inane, the spot is worth practically nothing. I say again, none of these guys giving 17,18 to 4 and a free scratch, will give him 21,22 or 24 to 4.
                      Rod.
                      PS, Where are you Skin ?
                      I totally agree...The value of one free scratch per game, is almost infetismal, with ANY two players...Let alone a guy getting the kind of weight Dippy is.

                      I would ten times rather give up one scratch, than 9/8...wouldn't anybody ???

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        if you guys remember rod once said the weaker player should never take an intentional scratch
                        his reasoning was if you are playing 10-4 and as the weaker player you take a scratch now you have to go to 5 . makes your game 25% tougher.
                        ( i hope i remember this right)
                        using arties logic having a free scratch would be worth 2 1/2 balls (10 divided by 4)
                        although the scratch would cost only one ball or 25% of what the weaker player has to get

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Artie Bodendorfer
                          Her is what people didnt no but will no no. I will give up one off my Hustling Secrets. And how its done. Witch I Figured out myself.


                          8.And if a player is playing another player 8 to 4 breack apeace then every scratch the player going too 4 is worth two balls. So too make the scratches fair and equale the rules need too be changed. Because each scratch has a different value and price . According to the spot.
                          Artie,

                          You say that if the player going to 4 scratches in this scenario then it's worth two balls. Two balls to which player? Would it be like playing 8-6 or 6-4?

                          The way I loosely figure it, if the player going to 4 scratches, it's like an 8-5 game now and that's more than two balls.

                          True enough that each foul has a different value and price though. That's correct.

                          Dennis

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by lll
                            i
                            using arties logic having a free scratch would be worth 2 1/2 balls (10 divided by 4)
                            So the better player would have to make 12 1/2 balls ? I still don't understand this.


                            Originally posted by lll
                            ialthough the scratch would cost only one ball or 25% of what the weaker player has to get
                            When his scratch is free he doesn't have to make any more. He can only do this free once.
                            Rod.
                            Rod.

                            Rodney Stephens.
                            (e-mail) rod.stephens0105@att.net(e-mail) #713-973-0503 is now working

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by SJDinPHX
                              I would ten times rather give up one scratch, than 9/8...wouldn't anybody ???
                              ....yes....

                              Comment

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