Calling a foul

[Cowboy Dennis]

Huh?

Firm grasp of what?

99 posts in this thread and that's the only comment you have? Don't think too hard Dave, you'll get a headache.

 

[John Brumback]

Come on, you can do better than that, those examples are all matches that are already being ref;d or umpired or whatever. Come up with un refereed examples. That is what the question is really.[/QUOTE

Ummm,that's the whole point of my post.How are we ever going to play pool without a reff?? I trust no one.Thank you.John B.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Don't ever shark me again by spilling your coffee while I'm shooting. Your supposed to be still while your over there In your chair.hehehehe,John B.

John,

You simply must stop posting at the same time as me, what will the neighbors think?

Dennis

 

[John Brumback]

John,

You simply must stop posting at the same time as me, what will the neighbors think?

Dennis

No you quit!!! I think your doing that on purpose.man that Is weired. John B.

 

[stevelomako]

If it's one question then you wasted a question mark. Where are your smilies? deys be comin

Jeez, I sure hope this clears it up for you. likeswize

P.S. I want smilies next time. looks balow, dare dey be

Dennis

There really is just one question.

It's also a question for anyone on here and I already know there would be alot of different answers.


If I make a game and play, I think I have the best of it. If my opponent needs to pull moves or other stuff, I know I have the best of it and its just a matter of time before his nutz are shot off.

 

[stevelomako]

Don't ever shark me again by spilling your coffee while I'm shooting. Your supposed to be still while your over there In your chair.hehehehe,John B.

I know and have waaay better shark moves than that. I just won't do something to someone first.

I had one that I didn't even know about but a few people have told me I used to do something that bothered the hell out of them while we played. LOL. I did tell them I wasn't trying to do anything and if they would have said something I might have stopped it.


I didn't like how when we were playing you kept farting while you were shooting. Boy your skivies must have been wet!


P.S.
Don't be shy on getting the case signed in Vegas....just make sure Rogoff doesn't get it again.

 

[Cary]

Bill,

This is not a discussion about ethics at all except by those who think it is. As Kris Kristofferson wrote "everybody's gotta have somebody to look down on, who they can feel better than at any time they please, someone doing something dirty, decent folks can frown on, if you can't find nobody else then help yourself to me".

Dennis

No, it's a discussion about integrity, which is defined (by many, and to simplify) as doing the right thing when no one is watching. All of this discussion is simply various, often understandable and possibly justifiable excuses for behaving in an unethical** manner.

**Since we're playing semantics, integrity, while not ethics, is an integral subset of ethics. If you like we can say we are discussing "an" ethic.

 

[Artie Bodendorfer]

No, it's a discussion about integrity, which is defined (by many, and to simplify) as doing the right thing when no one is watching. All of this discussion is simply various, often understandable and possibly justifiable excuses for behaving in an unethical** manner.

**Since we're playing semantics, integrity, while not ethics, is an integral subset of ethics. If you like we can say we are discussing "an" ethic.

Its logical but not etical. And usualy most off theese ethical people are people who dont gamble.

Because anyone that gambles knowes you are responsable for your game and what happines. Not the spectators or you wernt looking or anything at all.

And I do the wright thing when I gamble. But If a person is not warching the game and paying attention too what is going on. Then the besr rhing rhat can happen after the game tells him that his opponent fouled.

And maybe he will learn his lession and pay attention yoo whats going on.
And he needs too do that anyway. Because if he doesnt so that he leaves himself open too reay get F,

People will take balls from his rack. Pick up his balls he made. Or even move balls when he is not looking. And that would be cheating. Or forget too spot a ball.

WE use too play if you sleep the spot on a ball that a player owes Its too late. Too tell the player he owes a ball.

And why I dont disagree with this completly. Is because theese people learn too watch whats going on. And pay attention too the game.

And they will learn there lession sooner or latter Maybe.
I sont do this but people who do I cant blame them for doing whatever they can. Too win.

And even with a reff thier are mant wrong calls. But we have too go by rhem. And Tennies was a real good game to argue over the line calls.

Mackanrow is one off the best. At arguing. And If you watch Kobe from the lakers . He complaines and argues on every foul against him.

Thats because he is trying too get the reff to give him the calls. And he is a great player So the reffs give him the best off the calls.

Because off who he is and the reffs know that the people will get on thier case when a great player complaines.

And even in baseball the give the great pitchers the close calls. Or give a close call too a great hitter.

The best thing I can say play people who are like you. And dont gamble much. Because thier not going too do you a favor. By calling a foul on themselves.

Emagine playing for one hundred thousan dollaers and you call a foul on yourself. And the foul costs you the hundred thousand.

I call that triple integraty.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

No, it's a discussion about integrity, which is defined (by many, and to simplify) as doing the right thing when no one is watching. All of this discussion is simply various, often understandable and possibly justifiable excuses for behaving in an unethical** manner.

**Since we're playing semantics, integrity, while not ethics, is an integral subset of ethics. If you like we can say we are discussing "an" ethic.

I think I am approaching my last post on this subject. Cary, my integrity could only be called into question if I didn't call a foul on myself but I did allow you to call one on yourself. If you have read any of my posts you will have probably seen that I wrote at least three times now that I will not allow you to call a foul on yourself that I didn't see. All of you people on your moralistic high-horses who wouldn't bet you were alive don't even have a clue as to what I've written. It's also clear from the ignorant responses for two days now that none of you have ever had this come up in a game where it would be to your opponents advantage to spot a ball up. I have had it happen.

If the rule is the same for both of us how can it be lacking in integrity? For the last time I'll say it again: I WILL NOT LET YOU CALL A FOUL ON YOURSELF AND SPOT A BALL UP. Now, hows that for integrity? The same rule applies to you as to me.


Dennis

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Its logical but not etical. And usualy most off theese ethical people are people who dont gamble.

Because anyone that gambles knowes you are responsable for your game and what happines. Not the spectators or you wernt looking or anything at all.

And I do the wright thing when I gamble. But If a person is not warching the game and paying attention too what is going on. Then the besr rhing rhat can happen after the game tells him that his opponent fouled.

And maybe he will learn his lession and pay attention yoo whats going on.
And he needs too do that anyway. Because if he doesnt so that he leaves himself open too reay get F,

People will take balls from his rack. Pick up his balls he made. Or even move balls when he is not looking. And that would be cheating. Or forget too spot a ball.

WE use too play if you sleep the spot on a ball that a player owes Its too late. Too tell the player he owes a ball.

And why I dont disagree with this completly. Is because theese people learn too watch whats going on. And pay attention too the game.

And they will learn there lession sooner or latter Maybe.
I sont do this but people who do I cant blame them for doing whatever they can. Too win.

And even with a reff thier are mant wrong calls. But we have too go by rhem. And Tennies was a real good game to argue over the line calls.

Mackanrow is one off the best. At arguing. And If you watch Kobe from the lakers . He complaines and argues on every foul against him.

Thats because he is trying too get the reff to give him the calls. And he is a great player So the reffs give him the best off the calls.

Because off who he is and the reffs know that the people will get on thier case when a great player complaines.

And even in baseball the give the great pitchers the close calls. Or give a close call too a great hitter.

The best thing I can say play people who are like you. And dont gamble much. Because thier not going too do you a favor. By calling a foul on themselves.

Emagine playing for one hundred thousan dollaers and you call a foul on yourself. And the foul costs you the hundred thousand.

I call that triple integraty.

Artie,

You may as well go outside and talk to the desert for all the good it will do. These ignorant people get off on thinking that we are immoral, dishonest, lacking character & integrity, and are generally all-around cheaters if we don't agree with them.

People who've never bet nothing in their life and never played nobody who could play think they are better than us, it's that simple. They are too lazy and stupid to do their job when they are the non-shooter and must rely on the kindness of strangers to help them win.

Dennis

 

[cuesmith]

John,

It's my job to watch your inning at the table, I don't let players call fouls on themselves. Conversely, I'm not putting up a ball unless you call a foul on me. It's your job when I'm at the table to watch my shot.

Dennis

Do you feel the same logic applies to "sleepers"? Failing to spot a ball you owe from a previous foul, after you've made a ball in a later inning. In some places it's common to play that if you're opponent doesn't remind you that you owe a ball after you make a ball later, you no longer owe the ball. I have mixed feelings on this subject and generally do what's common at the place I'm playing. I remember once when John B was playing Mark Mazden under those rules and Mark would put his key ring, with dozens of keys on it in John's hole when he owed a ball as a reminder. It sounded like a xylophone when John made a ball on top of all those keys. I know John didn't like Mark using this tactic at all!

 

[Artie Bodendorfer]

Artie,

You may as well go outside and talk to the desert for all the good it will do. These ignorant people get off on thinking that we are immoral, dishonest, lacking character & integrity, and are generally all-around cheaters if we don't agree with them.

People who've never bet nothing in their life and never played nobody who could play think they are better than us, it's that simple. They are too lazy and stupid to do their job when they are the non-shooter and must rely on the kindness of strangers to help them win.

Dennis

What you are saying is what it realy is. And I no people who got fiered for not doing thier job.

But people dont see that And if the player would have done his job. Thier would be nothing too talk about.

And too say some one who doesnt walk up the dead. Has no integraty is in a nother world.

THe whole discousion is why didnt the player watch the game. You can make all kinds off excusies. THe moral off the story is if thee other player was doing what he is supoose too this could not happen.

Unless the player would disagree and make a false clam. But thats not the case. And I cannot blame another player. For my mistake not watching the game.

And if it happened too me were I sleep the scratch. I would feel like a complete idiot. Thee other player doesnt have too tell me he fouled.

I wouldnt even be mad at the other player for not saying anything that he fouled.

What am I thier for to socialize or look at the people or the girls. Im thier too watch the game. And see what my opponent is doing.

And if it happened too me. I wouldnt be upset or affected by what happened.

I no I doged it by not watching whats going on. And that integraty with gambling went out with the Indians.

Id integraty is beung a fool. Its all youres. You can have both. And like I said Rating on youself is the worst thing you can do too yourself.

But some people clear thier consince by being a rat. Too save thier own ass.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Do you feel the same logic applies to "sleepers"? Failing to spot a ball you owe from a previous foul, after you've made a ball in a later inning. In some places it's common to play that if you're opponent doesn't remind you that you owe a ball after you make a ball later, you no longer owe the ball. I have mixed feelings on this subject and generally do what's common at the place I'm playing. I remember once when John B was playing Mark Mazden under those rules and Mark would put his key ring, with dozens of keys on it in John's hole when he owed a ball as a reminder. It sounded like a xylophone when John made a ball on top of all those keys. I know John didn't like Mark using this tactic at all!

cuesmith,

What do you want to know? You are either playing sleepers or you are not playing sleepers. What's so hard to understand about that? Get the rules straight before you start if you are in a strange room. This question has nothing to do with this thread.

Dennis

 

[Artie Bodendorfer]

cuesmith,

What do you want to know? You are either playing sleepers or you are not playing sleepers. What's so hard to understand about that? Get the rules straight before you start if you are in a strange room. This question has nothing to do with this thread.

Dennis

Thier is no better answer than what Dennies just said get the rule straight before you start. Thier is nothing too talk about.

He made it as clear as it can be said. And he said it were everyone can understand it. And he gave you the answer that both players will play by.

Thier are no other qouistions or rules too talk about. Get is straight before you play.

Your not playing in a sociable game. You are playing for your money. And that soesnt grow on trees.

 

[bstroud]

Bill,

To me, winning, at its simplest, means overcoming obstacles to reach a goal. That's all winning is in any game. My opponent is supposed to put obstacles in place to hinder my winning. One of those obstacles is watching my shots and calling necessary fouls or other infractions of the rules governing the game. If he does his job then I have to play my best to overcome the obstacles, if he doesn't then I don't. I never have cared if I beat my opponent or if I won money or not. As Rocky said: "I ain't emotionally involved". When I gamble there is zero ego involvement in what I do. I don't care who I ever beat or who the hell ever beat me. It's not that important to me and never has been.

Playing pool certainly doesn't make me feel alive, I've played one time in about 6 months, maybe 7 or 8 I don't remember. I am planning on playing tomorrow though .

SactownTom, who runs tournaments all the time said that it is in the rules that the non-shooter calls fouls. That means I play within the rules(at least tournament rules), you can't ask for more than that even though I don't really care what tournament rules are.

I think you need to read all the posts in this thread and understand what they mean. You keep saying the same thing over and over. I have clearly and more than once said that I will not allow my opponent to call a foul on himself and spot up a ball. Do you understand what that means? It means that if you are playing me (gambling) you are not going to call a foul on yourself and spot up a ball. Why is that so hard for you to grasp? It's my job to call fouls on my opponent, it's not his job, nor will I let him.

Dennis

Perhaps I am missing your point?

What is an intentional foul? Is it not a foul perpetrated by oneself?
Are you saying I can't take an intentional scratch because you won't allow it?
What kind of logic is that?

The intentional scratch is part of the game just the same as admitting you touched the cue ball when your opponent wasn't looking.

The fact that I would back away from the shot and spot a ball doesn't make me any better than you. It is just how I grew up playing. It is what I think is the right way to play. It has nothing to do with you. You can play anyway you want.

But if we ever do play you can't tell me that I can't take a foul when I want. It's part of the game.

Bill Stroud

 

[CaliRed]

You and I are playing and I went to sit down and spilled my coffee and while I was wiping it up you shot and fouled then went and sat down.If you and I were gambling (for the first time) and I fouled when you weren't looking I would tell you I fouled and I would spot a ball up, no problem.

For the last time I'll say it again: I WILL NOT LET YOU CALL A FOUL ON YOURSELF AND SPOT A BALL UP. Now, hows that for integrity? The same rule applies to you as to me.


Dennis

hehe... sorry, I couldn't help myself, it was the only way I could get rid of the voice in my head that said "it's too perfect", you got to do it

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

hehe... sorry, I couldn't help myself, it was the only way I could get rid of the voice in my head that said "it's too perfect", you got to do it

I have to come in from the garage to see this??? It is funny Greg but now a whole other batch of morons will call me out on it. No problem though, I'm just about done with this thread anyway. Just about.

Dennis

 

[wincardona]

Are we bad guys

Are we bad guys

Are you a bad guy if you don't call fouls on yourself?

Is it my responsibility to call a foul on myself?

Have you ever asked a player if he fouled a ball, before he shot again?
And the player you asked said yes I fouled and got up from the shot, is he a bad guy too?
Based off of what some feel is a breach of integrity would he be guilty?

For those that answered yes on the first two questions, your answer on the three that followed should of been yes..yes...yes. If it was yes..no..no.
Then I believe you're confused.

My answer to all the questions were no..no..yes..no..yes


I have to go out for a while be back later.

Say goodbye to the bad guy.

Billy I.

 

[Cary]

I think I am approaching my last post on this subject. Cary, my integrity could only be called into question if I didn't call a foul on myself but I did allow you to call one on yourself. If you have read any of my posts you will have probably seen that I wrote at least three times now that I will not allow you to call a foul on yourself that I didn't see. All of you people on your moralistic high-horses who wouldn't bet you were alive don't even have a clue as to what I've written. It's also clear from the ignorant responses for two days now that none of you have ever had this come up in a game where it would be to your opponents advantage to spot a ball up. I have had it happen.

If the rule is the same for both of us how can it be lacking in integrity? For the last time I'll say it again: I WILL NOT LET YOU CALL A FOUL ON YOURSELF AND SPOT A BALL UP. Now, hows that for integrity? The same rule applies to you as to me.


Dennis

Good for you. I'm going to call the foul to your attention because IT IS A FOUL AND AN ILLEGAL SHOT ACCORDING TO ALL PUBLISHED RULES OF BILLIARDS. If you choose to not enforce the penalty, I've satisfied my integrity. If you failed to see the foul you should have been paying attention in order to protect yourself.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Perhaps I am missing your point?

What is an intentional foul? Is it not a foul perpetrated by oneself?
Are you saying I can't take an intentional scratch because you won't allow it?
What kind of logic is that?

The intentional scratch is part of the game just the same as admitting you touched the cue ball when your opponent wasn't looking.

The fact that I would back away from the shot and spot a ball doesn't make me any better than you. It is just how I grew up playing. It is what I think is the right way to play. It has nothing to do with you. You can play anyway you want.

But if we ever do play you can't tell me that I can't take a foul when I want. It's part of the game.

Bill Stroud

Bill,

Do you see anything in John Brumbacks first post (below) in this thread that makes you think we are discussing "intentional fouls" ? We're not. We're also not discussing "sleepers" or anything else other than what JB originally asked.

Calling a foul

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This might be a dumb ? or It might have been gone over,But anyway....
What if your opp Is not paying attention and you don't hit a rail after contact,
do you call It on yourself or not? I have wondered about this for a long time.
Thanks,John B.

This thread should have ended with my reply to John in post #2 but it has dribbled on now for 122 posts of mostly mind-numbing stupidity.

John,

It's my job to watch your inning at the table, I don't let players call fouls on themselves. Conversely, I'm not putting up a ball unless you call a foul on me. It's your job when I'm at the table to watch my shot.

Dennis
__________________
Crying won't help you, praying won't do you no good.

P.S. Crying won't help you, praying won't do you no good .

Dennis