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Daulton vs. Mizerak 1992 L.O.P.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Cowboy Dennis View Post
    I especially posted that pic twice, once without all the ball #'s and lines & arrows just so any hoopleheads could use it to show their shot...and what do you do???????????????????????????????????????????????

    RBL
    i needed the ball markings since im old and might forget.............

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    • #17
      Bank and draw

      Bank the 11 straight back and draw the cue ball to the foot rail for a relatively easy free shot. Shannon should make it at least 3 out of 4.

      If you needed a bunch you would draw the ball with left hand english all the way to the foot rail and then back up behind the other balls. Being that close to the 11 puts this shot in range.

      Beard
      New stuff on my site. 100s of pgs. of pool goodness
      www.bankingwiththebeard.com

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      • #18
        There are several possible options available for Shannon. Daulton needing only three balls from this position will try in some way to get out. Steve's shot with banking the 11 ball and playing position for the bank on the 10 ball is a good option. It's possible that Larry's option, banking the 11 ball and holding the cue ball for position on the 10 ball could be the way he'll go. He also has a possible option with banking the 3 ball and getting out with that shot, but the cue ball is a major concern with that option.

        The pockets on the Murrey tables were very forgiving, which makes me believe that he'll choose the 11 ball bank as his option. If so I believe he'll play Steve's shot and play position for the bank on the 10 ball next. That's what I would do playing on this kind of equipment.

        Playing on a table with tight pockets 4-1/4" I would play Larry's shot by banking the 11 ball (med speed) and sticking for a shot on the 10 ball. On tight pockets hitting a shot like the 11 ball bank with a hard speed is too risky.

        Dr. Bill
        Last edited by wincardona; 03-13-2012, 12:51 PM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by fred bentivegna View Post
          Bank the 11 straight back and draw the cue ball to the foot rail for a relatively easy free shot. Shannon should make it at least 3 out of 4.

          If you needed a bunch you would draw the ball with left hand english all the way to the foot rail and then back up behind the other balls. Being that close to the 11 puts this shot in range.

          Beard
          He doesn't need a bunch, he needs only three balls. What would you do now, needing three balls, that's the question.?

          Dr. Bill

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          • #20
            Originally posted by wincardona View Post
            He doesn't need a bunch, he needs only three balls. What would you do now, needing three balls, that's the question.?

            Dr. Bill
            I remember watching this match but don't remember this particular situation. One thing that comes to mind was that the pockets were more than forgiving. I'd be surprised if he doesn't fire at either the 11 or the 13, drawing the cue ball back and off the rail for shape on the spotted ball.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by fred bentivegna View Post
              Bank the 11 straight back and draw the cue ball to the foot rail for a relatively easy free shot. Shannon should make it at least 3 out of 4. But he shouldn't just settle for cinching the 11 ball, he should be thinking about getting out.

              If you needed a bunch you would draw the ball with left hand english all the way to the foot rail and then back up behind the other balls. Being that close to the 11 puts this shot in range. That's a little bit of a stretch, even for a young Daulton. But if anyone would try it you're looking at him.

              Beard
              In your post you described two extremes, 'cinching a shot' and 'over stretching with a shot.' That's good information for the scenario they both fit, but what would you do in this situation?

              Dr. Bill

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              • #22
                Originally posted by wincardona View Post
                In your post you described two extremes, 'cinching a shot' and 'over stretching with a shot.' That's good information for the scenario they both fit, but what would you do in this situation?

                Dr. Bill
                Wow my Jedi knowledge must be increasing as for once most of you- including you Dr. Bill, generally agree with my shot choice.

                As far as cinching VS stretching it, I believe that cinching the 11 unlocks an easy out considering there are 3 available balls after the 11 is made, so basically you just have to not F**k up the 11 bank and the table will provide the rest. And I would say considering Shannon's banking ability that there are ten to one adds of him getting out by starting with that shot.

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                • #23
                  Depends

                  Originally posted by wincardona View Post
                  In your post you described two extremes, 'cinching a shot' and 'over stretching with a shot.' That's good information for the scenario they both fit, but what would you do in this situation?

                  Dr. Bill
                  It depends, like I said. If I thought I was in good stroke I would draw all the way back and out behind the balls for out. (as I have done many times with this same shot)
                  If I felt just a little shaky I would just draw back to the foot rail and try and cinch the 11 ball bank and go from there.

                  I would need to be dumping, no matter how I felt if I didnt bank the 11 and draw the ball -- somewhere.

                  Beard
                  New stuff on my site. 100s of pgs. of pool goodness
                  www.bankingwiththebeard.com

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by NH Steve View Post
                    At that time, Shannon was playing -- and banking -- with so much confidence, I can't see him doing anything but banking the 11. I envision him smoking it and drawing back for the bank on the 10-ball next. When he banks the 10 he can drift over to finish up with a straight in shot on the 13.
                    .
                    I would play it exactly the way Steve and the Beard mentioned. If these are forgiving pockets, imo banking and drawing make it almost a hanger- certainly for Shannon. Also playing it this way, every shot is 100% free. Free bank on the 11, free bank on the 10, free shot on the 13.
                    Banking, sticking and getting good position on the 10 - doesn't look like it's laying ideal for that.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by sappo View Post
                      Im not so sure that an offensive shot is the way to go here. With Miz needing 4 balls any miss could allow him the possibility of getting out. Im thinking of either 3 railing the the 3 ball around towards my side pocket and leaving the cue ball on the bottom rail or 2 railing the 13 ball over to my side rail and leaving the cue ball by his pocket. With either of these shots I move those balls to favor me and not him. I think I like the 2 rail shot better. Keith
                      It all depends on the players make% on the 11 ball bank. Allow me to explain. This position can go either way, depending on how well the 11 ball is hit. The reason that is, is because whether the bank is made or missed the player shooting the next shot will have a good bank for his pocket. So with this understanding you need to pocket the bank at least 60% of the time for it to be a good option. Why 60% you ask? Because of the score, and the move you will lose if you shoot the bank and miss. Your ahead by one ball and if you play any of Sappo's shots you will also have the better position. That has to be worth something, right? So if you decide to shoot the 11 ball bank, that's the price your paying for it. If the shooter figures to make this bank only 50% to 55% of the time, or less, he should choose another option.

                      By the way, choosing the option of banking the 11 ball and sticking, now becomes more appealing because if you miss the bank you don't lose the move, nor will you give up a shot.
                      So if you feel that you won't make this bank 55% of the time banking it with speed, you must bank and stick.

                      Dr. Bill
                      Last edited by wincardona; 03-14-2012, 03:13 AM.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by timdog24 View Post
                        I would play it exactly the way Steve and the Beard mentioned. If these are forgiving pockets, imo banking and drawing make it almost a hanger- certainly for Shannon. why on earth would you draw when its completely unnecessary. IMO...... its much harder to be precise with draw than it is with kill or drag. Also playing it this way, every shot is 100% free. Free bank on the 11, free bank on the 10, free shot on the 13. this downright puzzles me. When you could set yourself up for near strait-in on the 10 by killing it, then 13 (or 3).... why set up for a bank....... not seeing the logic because the shot on the 11 could not set you up better for the 10 if you use a natural poke
                        Banking, sticking and getting good position on the 10 - doesn't look like it's laying ideal for that.
                        its perfect !!!!

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by TheClamp View Post
                          its perfect !!!!
                          When I looked at the table pic I wasn't certain that the 10 and 13 were doubled up towards Miz's pocket. If the 10 did pass the 13 to Miz's hole you couldn't play it that way, right?
                          "One Pocket, it's an epidemic and there ain't no cure."
                          -- Strawberry Brooks

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by NH Steve View Post
                            When I looked at the table pic I wasn't certain that the 10 and 13 were doubled up towards Miz's pocket. If the 10 did pass the 13 to Miz's hole you couldn't play it that way, right?
                            steve when i drew it up where the yellow arrow stops (actually id probably have the cue ball drift alittle towards the middle of the table to make the cut on the 10 easier) is after the first shot (banking the 11) it doubles up the miz(as i saw it) so it had its own non sell out component in it. if the 2 balls werent doubled up id have to be real sure id make it before playing it that way
                            credit goes to clamp for posting the idea of the shot first
                            Click image for larger version

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                            • #29
                              Draw or easy stop ball.

                              Originally posted by TheClamp View Post
                              its perfect !!!!
                              Actually, most bank pool players would prefer a full stroke draw on a straight, full hit bank than to try and hit it with a controlled stop stroke at pocket speed.

                              Alex Pagalion (sp) was lamenting this exact same thing at DCC. He was practicing a very similar shot with not so good results when he hit the straight back bank pocket speed. He asked me why it is so easy for him to whack the ball hard, straight back into the pocket and yet still have so little success when he had to stop the ball and hit it pocket speed.
                              I had an answer for him but he wasnt really seeking an answer from anyone. He was more or less, just talking out loud. Probably didnt think there was a practical answer available.


                              Beard
                              New stuff on my site. 100s of pgs. of pool goodness
                              www.bankingwiththebeard.com

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by wincardona View Post
                                It all depends on the players make% on the 11 ball bank. Allow me to explain. This position can go either way, depending on how well the 11 ball is hit. The reason that is, is because whether the bank is made or missed the player shooting the next shot will have a good bank for his pocket. So with this understanding you need to pocket the bank at least 60% of the time for it to be a good option. Why 60% you ask? Because of the score, and the move you will lose if you shoot the bank and miss. Your ahead by one ball and if you play any of Sappo's shots you will also have the better position. That has to be worth something, right? So if you decide to shoot the 11 ball bank, that's the price your paying for it. If the shooter figures to make this bank only 50% to 55% of the time, or less, he should choose another option.

                                By the way, choosing the option of banking the 11 ball and sticking, now becomes more appealing because if you miss the bank you don't lose the move, nor will you give up a shot.
                                So if you feel that you won't make this bank 55% of the time banking it with speed, you must bank and stick.

                                Dr. Bill
                                The two ways of playing the bank on the 11 ball are very close in terms of the correct shot. This is based off of the make % at 40% with the bank and stick, as opposed to the make % of 70% with the bank and draw.

                                If a player can make the bank and draw shot 7 out of 10 times I figure that he'll win close to 7 out of 10 games, 6.75 games out of 10, the way I figure.

                                If a player can make the bank and stick shot 4 out of 10 times i figure he'll also win close to 7 out of 10 games 6.80 games out of 10 the way I figure.

                                I used a formula based on my opinion of how often a player will win after shooting both shots.

                                These percentages are imo for a good player, the weaker the player the more the bank and stick option is the correct shot.

                                I would like to add that these percentages are purely speculative, because of all the uncertainties that would follow both shots.

                                Dr. Bill
                                Last edited by wincardona; 03-14-2012, 12:46 PM.

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