Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

G. Mathews vs. J. Parica 1995 Roanoke

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by NH Steve View Post
    Oh, I get it alright. But that doesn't mean I would see this particular shot as the best play for me in this situation. Just because I am in a pickle and my opponent has a strong position does not mean I am going to jump at every low percentage flyer that comes along when things look dire anyway.
    That is exactly when you should jump at a low percentage flyer. When would be a better time but when faced with a strong position?
    Another name for that approach is[B] "give up pool".[/B
    ] That is exactly the "secret" move that I have been trying to pound into everyone's head. Give up pool. Rather than being offended by my rudeness, you should ask yourself, why would the Beard, a guy who is noted not for his shooting but his strategy, tactics and knowledge, say such a thing? Is the Beard really that dumb all of a sudden? A wise man would try to analyze that which doesnt at first glance seem to make good sense.
    I think it is fair to say that most players that move well, are still going to wiggle out of many more difficult situations than they are going to shoot their way out of Not true at all -- although that might not be true for pure shooters. I pray that my opponent will try and move or play safe when I have a position like Parica was faced with. But on the other hand, just because I am a "mover" does not mean I will not shoot when I think it is time to go, even if the shot is tough. What I'm saying is that shooting at flyers is something that can definitely be overdone, That is why you have to know when to take a flyer. just as playing safe can be overdone...

    in my humble
    Quit spending my money on hookers.

    Beard
    New stuff on my site. 100s of pgs. of pool goodness
    www.bankingwiththebeard.com

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by NH Steve View Post
      Oh, I get it alright. But that doesn't mean I would see this particular shot as the best play for me in this situation. Just because I am in a pickle and my opponent has a strong position does not mean I am going to jump at every low percentage flyer that comes along when things look dire anyway. Another name for that approach is "give up pool".

      I think it is fair to say that most players that move well, are still going to wiggle out of many more difficult situations than they are going to shoot their way out of -- although that might not be true for pure shooters. But on the other hand, just because I am a "mover" does not mean I will not shoot when I think it is time to go, even if the shot is tough. What I'm saying is that shooting at flyers is something that can definitely be overdone, just as playing safe can be overdone...

      in my humble
      I believe strongly in you're premise, I keep saying that you have to play the game conducive to your skill level. Every situation is a little different, and I totally understand your logic, Jack Cooney made millions playing with the same logic. But with that said there is a time even for the weakest shooters to gamble and shoot for their pocket, and that will be based on our understanding of positions and when it's right or not right to gamble.

      More often than not you have to be at the table to be able to determine if certain shots are available, looking at a picture is often misleading. But if the angle on the 2 ball was available to do what you envisioned then I would agree that a player with your skill level will fare better squeezing. But your squeeze needs to be productive for your choice to be correct. You can't squeeze in a position that leaves your opponent options, if that's the case then you're better off shooting.

      Dr. Bill

      Comment


      • #33
        Another way of looking at what I am trying to say is that there is a fine line between shooting a "give up shot" and shooting a tough shot in a dire situation that legitimately gives you a chance to win a game that you are otherwise at rather long odds in.

        I'm not even sure it is a fine line -- it might even be a fat line for some players. The point is, taking a flyer can be as much an excuse to lose as it is an opportunity to win. Freddy -- just look at the names of the players you used to back the concept of Parica's shot: "Bugs, Ronnie, Kelly, Artie B, and Eddie Taylor". Guess what, those guys were (are) something special -- most of us would fail miserably playing many of their daring super-shots.

        I think Dennis dropped a key point when he described Parica's shot choice here, "Parica took all of 25 seconds to shoot the carom of the 1 ball off the 5 ball, he never looked at any other shot." What that means to me -- and this is pretty friggin important -- is that Parica approached that shot with decisiveness and confidence. That is how winners need to approach that kind of shot. I'm going to go on record here and state that should be an important element for any of us in deciding if it really is "time to go" versus time to give up.

        I think another element in the decision still needs to be, "Are there any reasonable to execute safeties that might give my opponent a chance to make a mistake?" I think there are a couple:
        1. doing something off the 2 ball
        2. playing the carom off the 8 (near Grady's side pocket) to noogie the troublesome 4-ball away. There is a nice little gap between the 4-ball and Grady's side rail that makes a good target for that kind of carom. The angle looks pretty close to the natural 30 degree angle to me. I didn't mention this shot because I think other people already did.
        Last edited by NH Steve; 07-01-2012, 08:18 PM.
        "One Pocket, it's an epidemic and there ain't no cure."
        -- Strawberry Brooks

        Comment


        • #34
          i realize im late to the party but for my skill level i would have shot into the 2 directly or kicked depending how it layed on the table (i dont know if this is what usblues was thinking) to keep the cueball behind it (hopefuly froze) to keep his options limited
          unlesss you make the one you sell out
          i dont think you can accurately take out the ball in the pocket with this shot
          if you know you can than i am all for it
          in freddys defence
          i understand dire straights call for dire choices
          but when is it time to throw in the towel
          we have seen lately shane playng from behind and from the lead take the "wrong" shot for the circumstances and win
          fortunately for us we dont play shane for money
          so freddys princilples will bring home the bacon for most of us
          steve i agree with you too that when to throw in the towel
          and say ok lets play the next game can be difficut
          and this layout maynot be the right time
          i hope i danced well on this one to say you are both right

          Comment


          • #35
            The truth of the matter is that there really weren't any good options for Parica other than playing off the 1 ball. Obviously the angle on the 2 ball was a stiff, meaning that he couldn't create any thing good off the 2 ball. He really couldn't hit and stick because of the position of the 9 ball (free shot) The combination 7-15 balls wasn't available so that's out, and caroming off the 8 ball was difficult because of the position of the 12 ball. Plus shooting the 1 ball carom offered him a couple outs. Not only could he pocket the 1 ball but there also was a fair possibility of moving the 13 ball from Grady's pocket with the shot. Like I said in an earlier post decisions are made by understanding positions, and being able to predict the outcome of the position based on the option chosen. Or at least the most likely outcome. Even though the option Parica chose was difficult to determine the outcome, he was happy with it because he wasn't thrilled with the most likely outcome with the other options, if there were any.

            Dr. Bill
            Last edited by wincardona; 07-01-2012, 10:59 PM.

            Comment


            • #36
              Not counting the path of the cue ball or the presence of any other balls, how does the chance of success for the cut shot compare with the carom?
              If it ain't funny, it ain't much.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by vapros View Post
                Not counting the path of the cue ball or the presence of any other balls, how does the chance of success for the cut shot compare with the carom?
                Considering the distance and angle of the cut shot, as opposed to the closeness of the 5 ball in relation to the 1 ball I would rather take my chances shooting the carom. Looks like an easier hit.

                Dr. Bill

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by NH Steve View Post
                  Since Accustats overhead view doesn't include the cue ball angle to the 2-ball it is hard to tell, but in the end view (which is compressed by the camera) it looks like another shot might be for Parica to shoot the short three railer on the 2-ball firmly with a little top left if it would go long enough to potentially rattle those three balls along his own side rail. Something good could happen and Parica should be able to leave the cue ball pretty close to the end rail with only long combos available for Grady -- the way I see it...

                  pS (of course I like the results that Jose got, but if that carom did not fall it might have been sayonara jose)

                  Something like this (except imagine the 2-ball continuing on to rattle into -- or off of -- those three balls along the side rail):

                  Steve....Right after Dennis posted this thread, that's the shot that I saw and considered....but it looked like the natural angle (meaning dead ahead) was laying too short (like about 3-in-the-side bank angle), so I never posted about that shot...but if it was laying so that a straight ahead hit would send the 2ball 3 rails and into the 7and 15 balls, and you would be leaving the cueball where he couldn't make the 13ball - then I think it would be an excellent shot - and probably the right shot.

                  - Ghost
                  jrhendy: Ghost does come up with shots that others don't see.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Cowboy Dennis View Post
                    Here's your layout Freddy. It doesn't look like a carom shot though?

                    Dennis


                    [ATTACH]6307[/ATTACH]
                    Dennis where did you get this layout from? I have been watching one pocket for over 50 years and I have never seen any thing close to how these balls are positioned. I can't imagine what had to transpire for the balls to end up in a position like this one.

                    Any ways, of course you shoot the 15 ball here, are there any other options?

                    Dr. Bill
                    Last edited by wincardona; 07-02-2012, 01:44 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by fred bentivegna View Post
                      Finally, a voice of reason. If I was staking Parica and he didnt fire all out at the 1 ball, that would end my participation in this match. There is even a possibility that he could get safe by coming under the balls by Gradys pocket. Whether he can get safe or not is meaningless anyway. He must go for the 1 ball.

                      I would shoot this myself, in my present condition even. What price do you think you could lay that Parica would miss the 1 ball? 7 to 5? 3 to 2? He would keep you broke with those odds.

                      I keep leaking, what to me is on the last page of the Secret One Pocket Handbook and it usually gets vilified and ignored. No skin off my nose. I dont need to learn it.

                      I learned this from watching great jail breakers like Bugs, Ronnie, Kelly, Artie B, and Eddie Taylor. One and all I am sure they would pop at the one in this spot. Seen 'em do it too many times.



                      Beard

                      Rationale to this move is available through private lessons only.

                      I should post the layout that Artie ran 8 and out on Jersey Red on. Red had 15 balls surrounding his hole. After that game Red was a cooked goose.


                      I have naturally forgotten how to post a WEI table again. Here is the link, however.

                      http://pool.bz/P/?@4ARqY4BYvQ4CHAM4D...Xpa1kMfI4kSWo@

                      Artie sliced in the 15 and the cue ball worked its way through all the balls and ended up in front of Red's pocket with all the balls open and moved over to Artie's side.
                      Originally posted by wincardona View Post
                      Dennis where did you get this layout from? I have been watching one pocket for over 50 years and I have never seen any thing close to how these balls are positioned. I can't imagine what had to transpire for the balls to end up in a position like this one.

                      Any ways, of course you shoot the 15 ball here, are there any other options?

                      Dr. Bill
                      It came from post #8. Freddy was illustrating the concept of cutting the 15 and having the cueball pile through the other balls.

                      Apparently Jersey Red was playing "mistake-free" this game against AB.

                      Dennis

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by One Pocket Ghost View Post
                        Steve....Right after Dennis posted this thread, that's the shot that I saw and considered....but it looked like the natural angle (meaning dead ahead) was laying too short (like about 3-in-the-side bank angle), so I never posted about that shot...but if it was laying so that a straight ahead hit would send the 2ball 3 rails and into the 7and 15 balls, and you would be leaving the cueball where he couldn't make the 13ball - then I think it would be an excellent shot - and probably the right shot.

                        - Ghost
                        I think that the skill level of the 2 players plays an important part here in what to shoot, as well as the tightness of the table. But, the overwhelming position of the balls for Grady tells me I better shoot at my hole.

                        Banking the deuce 3 rails isn't bad, but you'd still have way the worst of it. There's still really nothing that goes for you, and your opponent can thin the 1 or maybe the 9 ball towards his side and bring the cue ball back up table to the top right again. If your opponent didn't have the angle to thin one of those balls and naturally come back up table, he could also simply take a scratch, leaving you all alone up there staring at the at least 10 balls that all go for Grady, none for you (except the 1).

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by fred bentivegna View Post
                          [B][COLOR="Red"]It's like I give you eating money and you spend it on hookers.

                          Beard
                          Well, that sounds like the right thing to do to me without a doubt

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by NH Steve View Post
                            Another way of looking at what I am trying to say is that there is a fine line between shooting a "give up shot" and shooting a tough shot in a dire situation that legitimately gives you a chance to win a game that you are otherwise at rather long odds in.

                            I'm not even sure it is a fine line -- it might even be a fat line for some players. The point is, taking a flyer can be as much an excuse to lose as it is an opportunity to win. Freddy -- just look at the names of the players you used to back the concept of Parica's shot: "Bugs, Ronnie, Kelly, Artie B, and Eddie Taylor". Guess what, those guys were (are) something special -- most of us would fail miserably playing many of their daring super-shots.

                            I think Dennis dropped a key point when he described Parica's shot choice here, "Parica took all of 25 seconds to shoot the carom of the 1 ball off the 5 ball, he never looked at any other shot." What that means to me -- and this is pretty friggin important -- is that Parica approached that shot with decisiveness and confidence. That is how winners need to approach that kind of shot. I'm going to go on record here and state that should be an important element for any of us in deciding if it really is "time to go" versus time to give up.

                            I think another element in the decision still needs to be, "Are there any reasonable to execute safeties that might give my opponent a chance to make a mistake?" I think there are a couple:
                            1. doing something off the 2 ball
                            2. playing the carom off the 8 (near Grady's side pocket) to noogie the troublesome 4-ball away. There is a nice little gap between the 4-ball and Grady's side rail that makes a good target for that kind of carom. The angle looks pretty close to the natural 30 degree angle to me. I didn't mention this shot because I think other people already did.
                            Because I like you, Steve, I am going to keep on keeping on. I must continue to reject your logic in these situations because you are proceeding from a false premise. You are basing your argument on your skill level, that rightly so, would have extreme difficulty executing the shots I have been suggesting. But I think your logic is flawed, because it is based on you and other shortstops playing against Grady or Parica -- EVEN. You are imagining that you have to come with that moonshot and then come with 6 or 7 more to get out of that situation --- against Grady or worse. In that, not-relevant-to-this-discussion scenario, you probably should look to bunt something away somewhere and forget about the give-up. I wont argue against that.

                            But, how about if you are playing an even game against another shortstop or worse who don't figure to run out if you miss? Makes that choice a little "easier" doesnt it? Or if you were playing Grady or Parica and you were getting 14 to 4 or something like that. Would that put a little zip into the stroke?

                            Let me explain myself a little more re these discussions. I am not so dumb or so arrogant as to make my suggestions and shot choices based on a skill level that I used to have when I was in top stroke. Give me more credit than that. Usually I try to make my suggestions "idiot proof." Simple solutions. Stuff you can do under pressure -- because who cares what only works for fun?

                            Beard

                            I wont even mention the value of the fear factor you will instill in your opponent.
                            Last edited by fred bentivegna; 07-02-2012, 09:30 AM.
                            New stuff on my site. 100s of pgs. of pool goodness
                            www.bankingwiththebeard.com

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              We agree more than you realize Fred.
                              "One Pocket, it's an epidemic and there ain't no cure."
                              -- Strawberry Brooks

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                I think in situations like this, players think too much about how the guy is going to make some great shot and run out. The reason they do this is because those are the times they have been hurt mentally the most in the past, when they let a guy go, and he runs out.

                                First, grady wasn't an offensive powerhouse. I personally think the key to this situation is giving grady some sort of even or less than even money shot to shoot at and leave him on the rail and let him go. Just leave him so he cant mak that ball rail first and double him up (it is hard to see exactly where id put him from the angles presented). Grady cant really take a scratch from down there. He could come off that 1 ball and come back down, but he could easily leave you a look or a better angle to take out those balls or he could scratch, or he could run into on of those balls on your side rail! I just happen to think that making him execute something from the rail is a way better percentage than shooting that carom (what is the price on that carom anyway?). In short, I think the key to winning in many of these spots is to give the guy who thinks he has a lock a tough shot, then there is a little gulp going on there before he pulls the trigger. You have a lot going for you. That's how i saw it, I guess the result parica got proves me wrong
                                Last edited by tylerdurden; 07-02-2012, 10:45 AM.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X