Efrens magic

[lll]

i was watching alittle of the us open 9 ball....(forgive me ....:heh)
and kept hearing mention of efrens win in ahill hill battle over darren appleton
on a "fluke" 9 ball
well punter on azb posted a link to the shot thanks for the link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSe6troPrzg&feature=youtu.be

what do you think was efrens intentions on the shot???
i know its not one pocket.....:sorry
but its efren...

 

[jrhendy]

Efren

Efren

i was watching alittle of the us open 9 ball....(forgive me ....:heh)
and kept hearing mention of efrens win in ahill hill battle over darren appleton
on a "fluke" 9 ball
well punter on azb posted a link to the shot thanks for the link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSe6troPrzg&feature=youtu.be

what do you think was efrens intentions on the shot???
i know its not one pocket.....:sorry
but its efren...

Looks like he was trying to ride the nine and make it in the same pocket he lucked it in at.

He is playing great and running pretty good too. He should have gotten beat two or three times in our tournament in Sacramento. People dog it against him when he doesn't win on the square. He is still great for pool.

 

[tylerdurden]

People do dog it against him. If there was real money in pool, people would be motivated to train hard enough, both mentality and physically, to probably play much better against him. Can't really take anything away from him though.

 

[Jimmy B]

i was watching alittle of the us open 9 ball....(forgive me ....:heh)
and kept hearing mention of efrens win in ahill hill battle over darren appleton
on a "fluke" 9 ball
well punter on azb posted a link to the shot thanks for the link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSe6troPrzg&feature=youtu.be

what do you think was efrens intentions on the shot???
i know its not one pocket.....:sorry
but its efren...

Trying to get the cue down table behind the six, seven, eight, leaving the four on the other end, is what I thought at the time. But John is probably right.

 

[mosconiac]

Based on Efren's motion around the table prior to the kick, he was looking to send the CB up behind the wall of balls (he walked up there to see how it looked & if he could see the 5B should he make the 4B..two-way) and kick-bank the 4B into the lower-right pocket (he laid his cue on the rail where he expected the 4B to hit it).

His kick-bank went a little long, but the CB went right where he wanted. The rest is history. :lol

I do not think he was trying to kick under the 4B to ride the 9B into the side. We all know that is asking for a scratch in the lower-left.

 

[jrhendy]

Based on Efren's motion around the table prior to the kick, he was looking to send the CB up behind the wall of balls (he walked up there to see how it looked & if he could see the 5B should he make the 4B..two-way) and kick-bank the 4B into the lower-right pocket (he laid his cue on the rail where he expected the 4B to hit it).

His kick-bank went a little long, but the CB went right where he wanted. The rest is history. :lol

I do not think he was trying to kick under the 4B to ride the 9B into the side. We all know that is asking for a scratch in the lower-left.

After watching it again, I agree with you and he did get it safe.

 

[wincardona]

Based on Efren's motion around the table prior to the kick, he was looking to send the CB up behind the wall of balls (he walked up there to see how it looked & if he could see the 5B should he make the 4B..two-way) and kick-bank the 4B into the lower-right pocket (he laid his cue on the rail where he expected the 4B to hit it).

His kick-bank went a little long, but the CB went right where he wanted. The rest is history. :lol

I do not think he was trying to kick under the 4B to ride the 9B into the side. We all know that is asking for a scratch in the lower-left.

I also agree that Reyes played both the 5ball bank and the cue ball. Reyes kicks so well that he's entitled to a little luck. Like I have always said...luck is the residue of skill...

Dr. Bill

 

[3RAILKICK]

Efren was asked about this shot last night at HT Bellflower.

As best as I could understand him-his shot priorities were: 1) sending cb downtable, hopefully behind that wall of blockers...2) the hit on the 4, creating that downtable cb, would leave the 4 moving back and forth uptable....3)he got 'lucky', but accomplished #1.(said with an impish grin and giggle)

 

[lll]

Efren was asked about this shot last night at HT Bellflower.

As best as I could understand him-his shot priorities were: 1) sending cb downtable, hopefully behind that wall of blockers...2) the hit on the 4, creating that downtable cb, would leave the 4 moving back and forth uptable....3)he got 'lucky', but accomplished #1.(said with an impish grin and giggle)

thats efren........:heh.........

 

[oldspurguy]

Good thread, that was some shot. More magic from Efren on the big stage, in a big match, score tied hill-hill. Just amazing. Very interesting about what Efren had to say. Pretty much what I thought. His first goal was to get safe if he made nothing, and if he made the four he was on the five. Thanks Efren, for some more magic!!!

 

[wincardona]

I also agree that Reyes played both the 5ball bank and the cue ball. Reyes kicks so well that he's entitled to a little luck. Like I have always said...luck is the residue of skill...

Dr. Bill

My bad, I said he was playing the 5ball bank, I mistook the 4ball for the 5ball. Anyways, striking the 4ball to double bank it will send the cue ball up table, and possibly behind the wall of balls at the top end. He could of played lucky and double banked the 4ball and would then be a favorite to end up with a shot on the 5ball. Then he could of struck the 9ball with the 4ball and played distance with the cue ball...with blockers..He also could of made the 9ball:sorry he did make the 9ball. As well as he kicks...believe it or not...he was a favorite in the position he shot from. Too many times have I seen him pull off these kind of shots when kicking, there's no one better then "The Magician" kicking balls. And I can hear him now, when asked what he shot, and why. "I got luckeee"

Dr. Bill

 

[tylerdurden]

The big thing i noticed about that kick there, and maybe his skill is too refind for this, but if you kick it where he did/wanted to, it can go flying straight in that pocket to his right real easy too, the 4 i mean. and as mentioned i do think he played to have a chance to be on that 5. he shoots very heady shots as we all know.

 

[NH Steve]

What I do not understand about how Efren shoots is that long looping bridge -- how the heck does he control the exactness of hit on the cue ball to get exactly the english he wants? When I am trying to really control my english (like banking) then I have to choke up on my stroke. Yet he swoops in on a hard kick like this and gets just the english he wants

 

[tylerdurden]

What I do not understand about how Efren shoots is that long looping bridge -- how the heck does he control the exactness of hit on the cue ball to get exactly the english he wants? When I am trying to really control my english (like banking) then I have to choke up on my stroke. Yet he swoops in on a hard kick like this and gets just the english he wants

Roger Griffis was once having problems with his game, and I heard a rumor that efren when trying to give him advice to find his game again told him to lengthen his bridge. I really wont bore people, I could probably write 10 pages on this subject i thought about it so much when i hit a wall a long time ago. Let me know if you want to hear a diseased pool players mind splurged out and i'll pm you if you are interested.

 

[gulfportdoc]

What I do not understand about how Efren shoots is that long looping bridge -- how the heck does he control the exactness of hit on the cue ball to get exactly the english he wants? When I am trying to really control my english (like banking) then I have to choke up on my stroke. Yet he swoops in on a hard kick like this and gets just the english he wants

I've often wondered about that myself. And except for the fact that Reyes was (is) a prodigy, there are others who do the same thing, e.g. the other Filipinos. But look at Earl-- same thing.

Of course the long bridgers all came up playing rotation games, which didn't require much close-in play. Contrast that with the old 14.1 players who most all used little 7-8" bridges. They were continually used to working in close-- rarely above the foot half of the table.

But to see those gaping long bridges in one-pocket always amazes me.

Doc

 

[tylerdurden]

I wanted to just expand my answer. Here are my thoughts on long bridges. I will say first that I had an AMAZING amount of success using what i'm about to say when shooting at firm speeds off of a rail (when your hand is on the edge of the table), but it kind of applies to everything. This is a long story, so forgive me...

I first started to take video of my stroke many years back. If you do any serious work on this, the first thing you realize is that your cue will move either to the left or right at some point in your stroke. This is true even of the best players in the world, so it isn't really anything to try an fix, just something to be aware of. I think perfectly straight strokes are a real misconception in pool in that they simply do not, and even can not, exist.

This is a little counter-intuitive, but the first way to think of it is if you have a short bridge, your stroke actually has to make a quick swoop back over to counteract the movement left or right talked about above. If your bridge is longer, your are able to get the left or right movement "in" on your backstroke, and then back "out" on your now longer forward moving stroke. This is why erfren's stroke looks (and really is in essence) so straight (i'd say the same of strickland).... he moves one way, gets that kink out as he moves forward, and then just proceeds straight through. have i convinced anybody yet that short strokes could actually be detrimental?

as i eluded to above, i had way way too short of bridges on the rail. when i started thinking more about this stuff, and i started putting only tips of my fingers on the rail (efren shoots that way), it really helps aim and to straighten out.

This is all kinda just the tip of the iceberg. It turns out there are plenty of things that are opposite of what you may think with a stroke. I also believe holding the back hand of your cue further back is less suseptible to error. Anyway, I am rambling on..

 

[SJDinPHX]

I've often wondered about that myself. And except for the fact that Reyes was (is) a prodigy, there are others who do the same thing, e.g. the other Filipinos. But look at Earl-- same thing.

Of course the long bridgers all came up playing rotation games, which didn't require much close-in play. Contrast that with the old 14.1 players who most all used little 7-8" bridges. They were continually used to working in close-- rarely above the foot half of the table.

But to see those gaping long bridges in one-pocket always amazes me.

Doc

I agree somewhat Doc. Contrary to Tyler's asessment, I think you could make a case for how young some guy's were, when they first started playing, and their inability to reach most shots...A long bridge, just became a habit.

There are MANY short strokers (Hopkins comes to mind) and many normal, (7 to 9") strokers, who did very well with their ( chosen method..(ie; RA, Kelly, Siegel, and MANY othersI think it boils down to your comfort zone, and however you have refined your stroke to accomodate it..What works for Efren or Parica, may never work for you or me. (but, at times, we may wish it did...

PS..Tyler, I totaly disagree with your hand further back on the butt..You have to be creating more chance for error, unless you have a perfectly straight follow through. (mine changes, as the bet goes up) ..

 

[tylerdurden]

I agree somewhat Doc. Contrary to Tyler's asessment, I think you could make a case for how young some guy's were, when they first started playing, and their inability to reach most shots...A long bridge, just became a habit.

There are MANY short strokers (Hopkins comes to mind) and many normal, (7 to 9") strokers, who did very well with their ( chosen method..(ie; RA, Kelly, Siegel, and MANY othersI think it boils down to your comfort zone, and however you have refined your stroke to accomodate it..What works for Efren or Parica, may never work for you or me. (but, at times, we may wish it did...

PS..Tyler, I totaly disagree with your hand further back on the butt..You have to be creating more chance for error, unless you have a perfectly straight follow through. (mine changes, as the bet goes up) ..

Take a pool cue and fix the tip of it in a certain location. Put your hand in the middle of the cue and move to the right an inch, and the butt will move a lot more than an inch. Put your hand on the butt and move an inch to the right and the butt will move an inch. See how that works. With any given stroke deviation, you are actually decreasing your error as you get nearer the butt.

I have thought about it too much. That is my take and I am sticking to it. Now, if moving your hand back there doesn't work at all for you, that is a different discussion.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Take a pool cue and fix the tip of it in a certain location. Put your hand in the middle of the cue and move to the right an inch, and the butt will move a lot more than an inch. Put your hand on the butt and move an inch to the right and the butt will move an inch. See how that works. With any given stroke deviation, you are actually decreasing your error as you get nearer the butt.

I have thought about it too much. That is my take and I am sticking to it. Now, if moving your hand back there doesn't work at all for you, that is a different discussion.

Sorry Tyler, I just can't buy your theory..You still have to follow through that much further (gripping the cue further back) thereby increasingly relying on a good straight stroke, to keep you in line.

It seems you are at odds with the accepted method of a 'pendelum type' stroke, which is taught by EVERY pool instructor, and seems to work for 99% of all players. I hope your method works well for you, because it would not be a different discussion with me, as I cannot imagine changing to your line of reasoning, if I am understanding it correctly..:sorry

 

[tylerdurden]

Sorry Tyler, I just can't buy your theory..You still have to follow through that much further (gripping the cue further back) thereby increasingly relying on a good straight stroke, to keep you in line.

It seems you are at odds with the accepted method of a 'pendelum type' stroke, which is taught by EVERY pool instructor, and seems to work for 99% of all players. I hope your method works well for you, because it would not be a different discussion with me, as I cannot imagine changing to your line of reasoning, if I am understanding it correctly..:sorry

Well, it isn't a theory. IT is like levers, the further back you go the more you have to move to get to a given distance (of error) -- that is the application here. I actually don't teach to grab the butt back there or anything, just goes with this whole discussion that longer/shorter aren't necessarily better/worse or more/less accurate. If I had to sum it up in terms of actual teaching, i'd just say if your hand falls naturally way to the back of a pool cue, don't fight it because it is probably less suseptible to a given amount of error. We just don't agree, I actually dont care... i like it when people dont listen to me, it took me a long time to think about this stuff, so i normally keep it to myself, but now i never play anymore. I will stick to pm's if anyone is interested, it isn't that i dont enjoy the discussion, but it just kinda opens up cans all the time. Anybody is welcome to pm me if interested in more of my disease minded misinformation