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Owen vs. Chohan 2007 U.S. Open final

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Frank Almanza View Post
    If I can't bank that stripe toward my hole and take the cue ball up table withe some left English then I like John's kick shot and take my chances on him banking the ball that's up table. If no rail then the worse is I'll need another ball.
    .
    my first thought was johns shot
    my second was banking the stripe towards my pocket and bringing the cueball back up table
    would want the stripe to end on the short rail so tony couldnt bank it into the 2 balls near his pocket
    the 2 rail kick on the 5 i wouldnt consider for my skill set
    the 5 is too far off the rail and the distance of the q ball
    when the object ball is close to the opponent pocket and long rail and the q ball is behind the stack for example moving the ball towards my pocket with that type of kick i would consider without hesitation

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by One Pocket Ghost View Post
      Dear Lenny, Frank and Billy...I already said in my first post...

      Doc...Can't tell for sure (the actual angles) without being at the table...

      Instead, there's a good, smart safety here - simple to execute, with nothing that can go wrong (as long as it's not a natural scratch in the side angle - which it doesn't look like there is)

      So re. what I previously posted...I'm not shooting it if the angle is not natural for the correct deflection angle and speed...but if the natural angle is there for my safety, then imeo it's hands down the best choice here..

      Sorry Billy...but if my shot's natural angle is there, my shot can give your two shots about 10-7...

      - Ghost
      I went to the table to set up the balls the way they are positioned in the diagram. The scratch in the side is dead on which eliminates that option. Even if the scratch wasn't on that shot is a weak shot considering the score and the position of the remaining balls. My reason for this is the difficulty with the hit, in terms of direction and speed. Not to leave a good return shot is just about impossible. You will either leave a return shot on the 15ball cross corner, or a thin cut with the 5ball to either lose the game with or put yourself in deep trouble.Ghost, I do understand when you say that you will not shoot the shot unless it's laying natural for the correct angle and speed. However, shooting off the rail from the distance referenced may be natural...or some what natural for the correct deflection..angle...and speed, but the real problem is executing the shot from the position it lays.

      Taking an intentional in this situation should not be undervalued. To me it's certainly a good trade off. However, the intentional should be taken where I suggested to take it. Upper right side of the table. From this position Chohan will be playing Gabe 3 to 2 with a difficult shot decision to make. Taking the intentional shooting toward the 14 and 5balls is only good if you get ..under the 5ball, snookering Chohan from the 15ball.

      I do understand that it's a very difficult thing to ask of yourself to take yourself off the hill, once you've arrived there. However there are times when we have to make sacrifices in order to survive, or to stop the bleeding...if you will.

      Another thing must be considered when debating this point. The better the players are, the more the intentional is the correct option.

      Dr. Bill
      Last edited by wincardona; 11-16-2012, 01:00 PM.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Frank Almanza View Post
        If I can't bank that stripe toward my hole and take the cue ball up table withe some left English then I like John's kick shot and take my chances on him banking the ball that's up table. If no rail then the worse is I'll need another ball.

        The Ghost's shot looks difficult because it looks like it has to be hit too thin to avoid the scratch.
        Frank, if you're going to take an intentional, why take it where you leave your opponent the ability to either win the game, or improve his position? The intentional should be taken to the upper right side of the table. From that position Chohan cannot win or improve his position.

        Dr. Bill

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        • #19
          Bill if you take the scratch, then is the reply to half ball the 5 and leave the qb and 5 on the rail. How much does accomplish? Would a better scratch have the qb below and to the right of the 5, froze is preferable. There would be no good reply's from there.

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          • #20
            If I had eaten my wheaties that day and was feeling really sporty. I would go for this. (maybe not)

            It's hard to read the angle from the view and depending on how close the rock is to the rail it might not even be close to shootable. But.. I would take a look.

            Dud

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            • #21
              Very innovative, Dudley. Shows good imagination, which is what you need for one pocket. I always look for something easy, so I was going to do this with all the right I could get on it, but if Dr. Bill says that he set it up and to take the intentional, then I will. I would probably leave him a three railer to win it anyway

              "Born Into This"

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              • #22
                Originally posted by NH Steve View Post
                I like soft kicking at the 14 ball
                Soft-rolling the kick on the 14 if you miss a rail or ball, so what, you just took a scratch to a good spot -- maybe even under the 5 enough that Tony could not even see the 15 for the straight back.
                I agree with Steve. I'd softly try to kick the 5 ball with the 14 ball for a little back up. With the speed to not get hurt if I miss my target. I'd never be on the wrong side, so maybe it is an intentional.
                Rod.

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                Rodney Stephens.
                (e-mail) rod.stephens0105@att.net(e-mail) #713-973-0503 is now working

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Jimmy B View Post
                  Very innovative, Dudley. Shows good imagination, which is what you need for one pocket. I always look for something easy, so I was going to do this with all the right I could get on it, but if Dr. Bill says that he set it up and to take the intentional, then I will. I would probably leave him a three railer to win it anyway

                  That's the first shot I was thinking about. Dr Bill and Ghost didn't like it so I started thinking more conservative with a safety.

                  That shot is way better than a poor safety as long as you don't scratch. I think the qb gets closer to scratching than diagramed.

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                  • #24
                    Dudly, that should be the last shot you shoot. One you only need one. Two cue ball on that shot goes towards the corner. Three you would need to juice up the cue to not sell out the end rail balls or to leave a bank back. My shot is the slow rail kick for the three pushing it far enough away to stop the bank.
                    Coyotes, Eagles, and Deer, oh my!

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Scrzbill View Post
                      Dudly, that should be the last shot you shoot. One you only need one. Two cue ball on that shot goes towards the corner. Three you would need to juice up the cue to not sell out the end rail balls or to leave a bank back. My shot is the slow rail kick for the three pushing it far enough away to stop the bank.
                      Agreed, But I wanted to add another shot to the conversation. If I thought I could make it I might take a swing at it. Getting lucky shooting the wrong shot is a skill I possess-> So I hear.

                      Dud

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by jtompilot View Post
                        Bill if you take the scratch, then is the reply to half ball the 5 and leave the qb and 5 on the rail. How much does accomplish? Would a better scratch have the qb below and to the right of the 5, froze is preferable. There would be no good reply's from there.
                        If the intentional is taken where I suggested (top right corner close to the rail) Chohan has only two reasonable replies. He can possibly cross the 15ball to his side and bring the cue ball back up table to hopefully the top rail. Or he can shoot off the 5ball with a medium speed and send the 5ball to his side rail far enough up the rail not to leave a cross corner return bank for Gabe. Either one of his replies carries a penalty if not struck well. Plus there really isn't any production to speak of with either reply if hit well.

                        With John's kick safety if not hit well you run the risk of selling out the straight back on the 15ball to either possibly win the game or improve your position (for Chohan) depending on how you prefer playing off the 15ball. In terms of the speed you hit it with. With John's kick safety you're probably a 65% favorite to strike the 5ball without fouling. However when you strike the 5ball you will allow Chohan to see the 15ball allowing him to dictate how the game will be played from there. If you miss the 5ball with John's kick you still may allow Chohan to see the 15ball, plus you lose a ball for fouling with the shot. Imo the best result you can get with the kick safety of John's is to miss the 5ball and "snooker" Chohan in back of the 5ball not allowing him to dictate how the game will be played.

                        If my forecast is accurate I would rather lose a ball by taking the intentional to the top right corner, insuring that I will not be in trouble with my next shot, nor will I ever lose the game from that position. Taking the foul is the price you pay for the insurance of getting out of trouble, and remaining the favorite in the game.

                        Kicking at the 5ball is a gamble. It could work out well for you, however, it could also cost you the game. Taking the intentional is playing a controlled game while being the favorite. Plus your destiny will always be in your hands with the intentional.

                        Dr. Bill

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Jimmy B View Post
                          Very innovative, Dudley. Shows good imagination, which is what you need for one pocket. I always look for something easy, so I was going to do this with all the right I could get on it, but if Dr. Bill says that he set it up and to take the intentional, then I will. I would probably leave him a three railer to win it anyway

                          Jimmy, the angle for the shot you drew up just isn't there. If it is it's very risky. With your shot the 15ball must be hit extremely thin, and controlling both the cue ball and 15ball Imo is asking too much. Not a viable option.

                          Dr. Bill

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                          • #28
                            Dr.Bill

                            If you take an intentional safety to the upper right corner, why in the world would Tony not bank the 15 toward the 5 and 10, with just enough speed to make one if he gets lucky? He might win from there and should get fairly safe. Tony's worst case would find him with all 3 balls clustered around his pocket. I don't understand. Are we both seeing the same picture?
                            Last edited by vapros; 11-16-2012, 07:23 PM.
                            If it ain't funny, it ain't much.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by NH Steve View Post
                              I like soft kicking at the 14 ball or the Ghost's soft roll of the 15-ball to the bottom rail. The soft roll on the 15 would depend on the scratch angle, like he said -- not shooting it if it looks like a scratch angle. Personally, I would not cut the 15 to make it -- it looks like too tough a shot for me to want to bet the game, although the camera does foreshorten the table quite a bit.

                              No way would I kick hard enough to skim off the 5-ball and go back up table, although I like that shot in other situations. The way I see that kick -- advocates are talking about hitting it basically like you are trying to make the ball, right? -- it's lying a little far out from the corner, and off the rail to assure a good hit consistently, and bad things can happen if you don't get a good light nick on that 5, i.e., you get under it too much or God forbid you miss it completely and sell out either the 15 or the ball you have to spot because you missed your kick. Soft-rolling the kick on the 14 if you miss a rail or ball, so what, you just took a scratch to a good spot -- maybe even under the 5 enough that Tony could not even see the 15 for the straight back.
                              I agree with most of what you say. The two rail kick into the 5ball is risky, but doable. The 15ball is not an option to try to pocket it. Kicking at the 14ball is a decent option, however, playing an upper echelon player it's a gamble that I would prefer not taking. Which I explained in an earlier post. Kicking at the 14ball is probably the best option for average to below average players, simply because the position of the 15ball is a demanding shot that average players usually don't do well with.

                              Dr. Bill

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by jtompilot View Post
                                Bill if you take the scratch, then is the reply to half ball the 5 and leave the qb and 5 on the rail. How much does accomplish? Would a better scratch have the qb below and to the right of the 5, froze is preferable. There would be no good reply's from there.
                                If the intentional is taken where I suggested (top right corner close to the rail) Chohan has only two reasonable replies. He can possibly cross the 15ball to his side and bring the cue ball back up table to hopefully the top rail. Or he can shoot off the 5ball with a medium speed and send the 5ball to his side rail far enough up the rail not to leave a cross corner return bank for Gabe. Either one of his replies carries a penalty if not struck well. Plus there really isn't any production to speak of with either reply if hit well.

                                With John's kick safety if not hit well you run the risk of selling out the straight back on the 15ball to either possibly win the game or improve your position (for Chohan) depending on how you prefer playing off the 15ball. In terms of the speed you hit it with. With John's kick safety you're probably a 65% favorite to strike the 5ball without fouling. However when you strike the 5ball you will allow Chohan to see the 15ball allowing him to dictate how the game will be played from there. If you miss the 5ball with John's kick you still may allow Chohan to see the 15ball, plus you lose a ball for fouling with the shot. Imo the best result you can get with the kick safety of John's is to miss the 5ball and "snooker" Chohan in back of the 5ball not allowing him to dictate how the game will be played.

                                If my forecast is accurate I would rather lose a ball by taking the intentional to the top right corner, insuring that I will not be in trouble with my next shot, nor will I ever lose the game from that position. Taking the foul is the price you pay for the insurance of getting out of trouble, and remaining the favorite in the game.

                                Kicking at the 5ball is a gamble. It could work out well for you, however, it could also cost you the game. Taking the intentional is playing a controlled game while being the favorite. Plus your destiny will always be in your hands with the intentional.

                                Dr. Bill

                                Comment

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