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Pat vs. Ghost - wwyd #2

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  • #16
    ghostshot

    I think an old 3c lover like you might hit that 9 with 4 o clock draw and try to kick in the 4. if you miss the cue will go 2 rails to the left top corner ,1 ball should stop near your hole

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    • #17
      Originally posted by gulfportdoc View Post


      Ghost must have done something good, or he wouldn't show it .

      ~Doc
      Ha...Doc, you can't get the jump on the wily old Ghost - the Ghost anticipated that thought of yours.....that said...

      When we started playing, I laughingly said to Pat when we started taking the pics: "We can't just show our best shots or they'll accuse us of bragging - and we're certainly not gonna show our bad shots - so we should compromise and show something in between"

      - Ghost
      jrhendy: Ghost does come up with shots that others don't see.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Tom Wirth View Post
        I can't see you doing anything other than two railing the nine ball and sticking the rock on the six. If the angle on the nine isn't there for the two rail shot I still see you sticking the cue ball on the six. As you know, that hides your four ball too. You could drift the rock up table for behind the string of balls along the far side rail but if you end up on the rail you give up the one ball. You could instead bank the ten ball, because you have a traffic cop to help steer it in if you're a tad off line but I like the two railer because it looks so natural and accomplishes all that is needed.

        BTW From the image in the last thread it sure looks like there is a good view of the thirteen. I think you said it was the nine but either way, the lines I drew show which ball I meant.

        Tom
        I think Tom's shot is the best option because it is so easy to execute, Billy's shot could be a sell out.I might like shooting off bottom rail and kicking 10 ball with alittle right English and putting cue ball up side rail into 1 ball but Tom's shot would be my first choice.

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        • #19
          sorry I meant the 12 ball to kick off bottom rail.

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          • #20
            I like drawing whitey to the side of the nine/frozen and bank the upper stripe into the 13 ball, looks to lay natural.
            Bill Meacham
            WBT
            www.worldbilliardtour.com
            no link....

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by gulfportdoc View Post
              If the 14 passes the 1 ball, then a guy could shoot the 14 into the 10, bunting them both away from the opponent's pocket, and freezing whitey behind the 1-13 cluster. ( the angle is not there for the shot, if it was it would be too good to pass up)

              If that's not available I like Tom's 2-railer, and also Cardone's combo-hide-the-CB. For that shot the pocket created by the 9 and 6 balls is pretty big, and relatively easy to roll the CB into.

              Also, it looks to me like the 10 ball is fairly easy to twist straight back into the shooter's hole, especially with side boards. It's a more aggressive shot, but it could yield the prize. (Imo banking the 10ball is too aggressive for several reasons. First, you're limited on your ball running potential because the balls are tied up both around the foot spot and near the side pocket. Secondly,there are other options that are solid options that don't give up any offensive shots to your opponent, with that understanding choosing an option that is a sell out if you miss must be a very high percentage to pocket, which the bank is not.)

              Ghost must have done something good, or he wouldn't show it.

              ~Doc
              Strouds option is also a solid option because of several reasons, but one in particular is where you leave the cue ball. Locating the cue ball ..on top of the 9ballas opposed to on the 6ball with Tom's option is much more difficult to escape from. Shooting the 9ball with Toms shot leaves the cue ball near the 6ball leaving the 10ball as a possible escape option. Stroud's option leaves a much more difficult situation for your opponent to shoot from. There is no escape from leaving the cue ball on top of the 9ball. Dr. Bill

              Dr. Bill
              Last edited by wincardona; 09-27-2014, 08:13 PM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by One Pocket Ghost View Post
                Ha...Doc, you can't get the jump on the wily old Ghost - the Ghost anticipated that thought of yours.....that said...

                When we started playing, I laughingly said to Pat when we started taking the pics: "We can't just show our best shots or they'll accuse us of bragging - and we're certainly not gonna show our bad shots - so we should compromise and show something in between"

                - Ghost
                Well Luke, I'm impressed with your new found constraint.

                BTW, you're about to run up against Cardone's unofficial "24 hour rule" for WWYD's. When can we expect the Specter's much anticipated shot selection?

                ~Doc

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by wincardona View Post
                  Strouds option is also a solid option because of several reasons, but one in particular is where you leave the cue ball. Locating the cue ball ..on top of the 9ballas opposed to on the 6ball with Tom's option is much more difficult to escape from. Shooting the 9ball with Toms shot leaves the cue ball near the 6ball leaving the 10ball as a possible escape option. Stroud's option leaves a much more difficult situation for your opponent to shoot from. There is no escape from leaving the cue ball on top of the 9ball. Dr. Bill
                  If the 10 ball bank lays perfectly then it is definitely a contender. Otherwise the straight back into the cluster is too iffy. You might hit the 13, you might hit the 14. If you hit the 14, it drives another ball to the opponent's hole. However there is still the benefit of sticking whitey on the 9, which is substantial.

                  Shooting the 9 two rails puts another ball in front of the shooter's hole, and hides whitey almost as well as the other shot. For that reason I also like shooting the combo and banking the CB up into that 6-9 cluster.

                  ~Doc

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    No surprise, that the cagey Billy I. made note of what I mused in my initial post...

                    Originally posted by wincardona View Post
                    there's a reason why Ghost put this particular position up for debate. and remember what his question was.

                    "I'm curious to see who picks the shot that I liked here, and chose to shoot."

                    Dr. Bill

                    That said..it's surprising that nobody spotted the shot that I did shoot - I thought for sure one or more guys would ...

                    But first of all, as for the feasibility/availablity of a couple of the other suggestions - some weren't available or laying quite right - (which, as we all know, you can't exactly tell from the pictures in a lot of our wwyd's)...i.e...

                    There was too much angle to bank the 10 ball straight back, and hold the cueball within reason (as Billy spoke of in one of his posts)...

                    Billy's combo-bank was lined up to go a little too high - as he thought it may have been - and also I'd prefer not to open up that cluster...

                    And Tom's 2-railer wasn't laying quite right - the tangent line, cueball-to-the-9 was laying aimed dead ahead at the left top corner pocket..I would have had to cut the 9 to the right to play the 2-railer, and cutting it, would have precluded my being able to do the right thing with the cueball...and also the left edge of the 3 ball was very close to being in the way of the 9 coming off of the second rail.

                    So anyway...since I do generally hit cross-corners well, including tough off-angle ones, and I like shooting them..I shot the thin-hit cross corner bank of the 6 ball, with the intention of having it kick in my 2 ball...

                    I chose to shoot it knowing that after the 6 kicks in the 2 (if I hit it good enough to make it) the 6 will bounce right up in front of my pocket, giving me perfect position for a simple second shot...and also, I know that this shot will come out safe if I miss = with a short firm draw stroke, I'll have the cueball strike the 9 ball full - this will cause the cueball to stop right there, leaving Pat still safely doubled up on his 12..and it will also open up the 10 ball for me...and, my second choice result on the shot was..even if I don't make the 4, but just touch it any-kind-of-way with the 6 - I'll have two balls sitting in the jaws of my pocket...

                    My result being...I hit it pretty good, killing the cueball where I had intended to - but my hit on the 6 wasn't quite good enough to make the 2 - I needed to twist it a little more - I banked it a little short and it hit just my long rail just above my pocket, grazed the top of the 2, and then ended up where you see it now.

                    - Ghost
                    Attached Files
                    Last edited by One Pocket Ghost; 09-28-2014, 01:18 PM.
                    jrhendy: Ghost does come up with shots that others don't see.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Even if Tom Wirth's shot "precluded" (hi Dr Bill) you from 2 railing the 9 ball, I think you gave up your equity. Even if you pocketed the 9 ball in the upper left corner and froze him to the 6 you punish your opponent. This is, of course what I call a TAG move or a Tight Aggressive Game move.
                      Instead you opted to take a LAG (Loose Aggressive Game) move.
                      The reason I bring these 2 options up is that if you make the combo you can win the game but you also give Villain the chance if you miss to get out of a trap. Which is what you did.
                      Wirth's shot would certainly put a lot of pressure on your opponent (Villain) and bring more fruitful results in the long run.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by keoneyo View Post
                        Even if Tom Wirth's shot "precluded" (hi Dr Bill) you from 2 railing the 9 ball, I think you gave up your equity. Even if you pocketed the 9 ball in the upper left corner and froze him to the 6 you punish your opponent. <------No, I'd be punishing myself This is, of course what I call a TAG move or a Tight Aggressive Game move.
                        Instead you opted to take a LAG (Loose Aggressive Game) move.
                        The reason I bring these 2 options up is that if you make the combo you can win the game but you also give Villain the chance if you miss to get out of a trap. Which is what you did.
                        Wirth's shot would certainly put a lot of pressure on your opponent (Villain) and bring more fruitful results in the long run.
                        Sorry Keone, but your strategic analysis here is not properly thought out ....I think maybe I'll send you a copy of Sun Tzu's Art of War for you to study.....

                        Enlightenment ------> If I "pocketed the 9 ball in the upper left corner and froze him to the 6" as you recommend - all he has to do in return, is graze the cueball off the 6, to the long rail, and back to the 6, leaving me frozen against the 6 - trapped...

                        And if I pocketed the 9 and followed it down to the top left corner with the cueball..depending on where the cueball ends up...he might be able to see my 4ball, and remove it...or he may be able to pocket the 3ball or the 5ball...or, failing all of that, fo-sure, my opponent will have a simple return shot by coming off the side of the 8, putting me safely right back on my long rail - and he could even accomplish this same thing by hitting the 8 full, and offensively play the 8 to ticky off his long rail and then the inside of the 5, possibly making the 5...enough said.

                        - Ghost<------One Pocket defensive/moving specialist for 46 yrs.
                        Last edited by One Pocket Ghost; 09-28-2014, 04:06 PM.
                        jrhendy: Ghost does come up with shots that others don't see.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by One Pocket Ghost View Post
                          Sorry Keone, but your strategic analysis here is not properly thought out ....I think maybe I'll send you a copy of Sun Tzu's Art of War for you to study.....

                          Enlightenment ------> If I "pocketed the 9 ball in the upper left corner and froze him to the 6" as you recommend - all he has to do in return, is graze the cueball off the 6 to the long rail and back to the 6, leaving me frozen against the 6 - trapped...

                          And if I pocketed the 9 and followed it down to the top left corner with the cueball...he might end up being able to see my 4ball, and remove it...or he may be able to pocket the 3ball or the 5ball...or, failing all of that, fosure, my opponent will have a simple return shot by coming off the side of the 8, putting me safely right back on my long rail - and he could even accomplish this same thing by hitting the 8 full, and offensively play the 8 to ticky off his long rail and then the inside of the 5, possibly making the 5...enough said.

                          - Ghost<------One Pocket defensive/moving specialist for 46 yrs.
                          I have both copies of Sun Tzu's opus. One in English and one in Chinese which one do you prefer?????
                          I did not make my post to go against your choice. I merely mentioned that one has a Tight Aggressive approach and on has a Loose Aggressive approach. Both good as long as its Aggressive
                          The issue with Wirth's shot to the 9 ball is your opponent has no response other than playing a hazardous safe. If you say Villain can easily roll off the 6 and leave you safe that's debatable. Don't forget by removing the 9 you leave the 10 ball open for a long bank straight back with a big pocket caused by the 4 which you did not allow Villain to see.
                          Look at your results.
                          Yes had you made it it would have made it look heroic. But what are the %s of doing so. Wirth's shot can be made almost 100% of the time.
                          If it is books you are recommending,I recommend David Sklansky's Poker, Gaming, and Life-Fighting Fuzzy Thinking.
                          Last edited by keoneyo; 09-28-2014, 04:22 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by One Pocket Ghost View Post
                            My result being...I hit it pretty good, killing the cueball where I had intended to - but my hit on the 6 wasn't quite good enough to make the 2 - I needed to twist it a little more - I banked it a little short and it hit just my long rail just above my pocket, grazed the top of the 2, and then ended up where you see it now.

                            - Ghost
                            I think I remember my response to this - is it the next WWYD, Ghost, or is it too easy?

                            pj
                            chgo

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Ghost,

                              What I don't like about the result of your shot choice is the fact that the balls still favor your opponent. Perhaps it is just me, but I am a ball runner and do everything possible to have balls open to my pocket.

                              I would rather have the balls open to my pocket than having a ball hanging in my pocket.

                              Bill S.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by keoneyo View Post
                                I have both copies of Sun Tzu's opus. One in English and one in Chinese which one do you prefer?????
                                I did not make my post to go against your choice. I merely mentioned that one has a Tight Aggressive approach and on has a Loose Aggressive approach. Both good as long as its Aggressive
                                The issue with Wirth's shot to the 9 ball is your opponent has no response other than playing a hazardous safe. If you say Villain can easily roll off the 6 and leave you safe that's debatable. <----- Not really Don't forget by removing the 9 you leave the 10 ball open for a long bank straight back with a big pocket caused by the 4 which you did not allow Villain to see.
                                Look at your results.
                                Yes had you made it it would have made it look heroic. <----- It wouldn't have been heroic - just solid, creative offense. But what are the %s of doing so. Wirth's shot can be made almost 100% of the time.
                                If it is books you are recommending,I recommend David Sklansky's Poker, Gaming, and Life-Fighting Fuzzy Thinking.
                                I already proved my points in my previous post...we'll just agree to disagree.
                                jrhendy: Ghost does come up with shots that others don't see.

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