5 rack game?

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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I’ve never seen a scratch on the break end it. The way it was done at DCC wasBIH behind the line -1 if you scratched. Like Jay Helfert said, it’s hard enough anyway, why add such a major hurdle? I suggested if you don’t like BIH then you can charge a -1 and make them re-break.
Steve,
I do not believe it would behoove anyone if we ignored the original way the game is played. The game has two foundational rules; any scratch/foul or ball missed ends the rack. It was played that way when I was playing, and it goes back before that and surely this can be confirmed.
This can be checked with Jay, Androd, Billy Jackets, Billy I. and so forth.
Whitey
 
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NH Steve

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Steve,
I do not believe it would behoove anyone if we ignored the original way the game is played. The game has two foundational rules; any scratch/foul or ball missed ends the rack. It was played that way when I was playing, and it goes back before that and surely this can be confirmed.
This can be checked with Jay, Androd, Billy Jackets, Billy I. and so forth.
Whitey
Yes, but not on the break. Please, if any of these people can confirm it has always been that way -- on the break -- I'd like to hear it. What I do know is that the years they did it at DCC a scratch -- on the break only -- did not end that rack. Of course a scratch at any other point would end that rack, just like a miss would. A miss on the break does not end the rack either. The break is simply the means to open the rack, to begin that rack.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Steve,
Jay also stated; 'most players opted not to scratch, for it does not open up the balls as much".
So for a pro to scratch break is primarily useless according to Jay for they need a very high #. I can see it having its use if a player can not master the break.

There is a far difference in allowing a player to scratch on the break, and then continuing to keep playing, it is a completely different game. For, there is no challenge to master a break! And mastering the break was the challenge, and it is the most important shot, and the shot that requires the most precision of the entire game. This is what we have been doing on this thread for a month, breaks, and trying to master them.

Hopefully the way the game was originally played will be settled, and then we proceed from there.

This is one tough game, but it is suppose to be tough.

Good discussion, it will be worked out. Whitey
 
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Ratamon

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Steve,
Jay also stated; 'most players opted not to scratch, for it does not open up the balls as much".
So for a pro to scratch break is primarily useless according to Jay for they need a very high #. I can see it having its use if a player can not master the break.

There is a far difference in allowing a player to scratch on the break, and then continuing to keep playing, it is a completely different game. For, there is no challenge to master a break! And mastering the break was the challenge, and it is the most important shot, and the shot that requires the most precision of the entire game. This is what we have been doing on this thread for a month, breaks, and trying to master them.

Hopefully the way the game was originally played will be settled, and then we proceed from there.

This is one tough game, but it is suppose to be tough.

Good discussion, it will be worked out. Whitey
It's not always about mastering the break. As it often happens, the corner ball may get in the way of the CB causing a scratch. This is simply because balls are not perfectly round!

I agree with Steve here. I also think we should make clear in the rules whether or not the owed ball is spotted last, i.e. whether it's possible to score 15 on a scratch break.
 

cincy_kid

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I would have to agree that if you scratch on the break, it doesn't end the rack. You get BIH behind the line and start at -1.

Thats how I always played it anyways, don't know about the earlier years.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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It's not always about mastering the break. As it often happens, the corner ball may get in the way of the CB causing a scratch. This is simply because balls are not perfectly round!

I agree with Steve here. I also think we should make clear in the rules whether or not the owed ball is spotted last, i.e. whether it's possible to score 15 on a scratch break.
Ratamon, duly noted, and I did adjust this as Bob Jewett brought this up. It will get corrected on the final draft. The owed ball along with any neutral balls pocketed will be spotted at the tail end.
But, you agree with Steve, does that mean you know how the game was originally played. That is what we are looking for, members to speak up that know how the game was originally played. thanks, Whitey
 

cincy_kid

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Ratamon, duly noted, and I did adjust this as Bob Jewett brought this up. It will get corrected on the final draft. The owed ball along with any neutral balls pocketed will be spotted at the tail end.
But, you agree with Steve, does that mean you know how the game was originally played. That is what we are looking for, members to speak up that know how the game was originally played. thanks, Whitey
Even if they played it one way when the game was first created, doesn't mean we can't make it better by making minor adjustments. This is only my opinion and I base it on the same concept that was brought up earlier. It is a hard enough game as it is and to make it even harder by losing 20% of your potential ball total, just because of a scratch on a break, that is rough! :)

What if they played one hole that way? Scratch on the break and you lose the game!
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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I put out a PM to Billy Jackets, Androd, and Jay, and I tried to connect with Dr. Bill but could not PM him.

I stated; Steve and I would like to know if this is how the game was originally played. A scratch whether on the break or thereafter ends the rack, also after the break any miss shot ends the rack.

But if I am wrong and the consensus comes back that way, I still think this is a much better way to play the game. Who ever heard of any game being allowed to scratch on the break and then continue. This is a gimmick, thought up by players to add another hustle, I am sure of it.

A scratch/break is a good alternative and I have absolutely no qualms about that.
But I would not enter into a proposition 5 rack and allow the player to have the option to scratch or not. They are two different games entirely and thus require a different x-amount of balls to be scored. You either play one way or the other if my cash is up.

Giving a player 4-1/2' behind the line to get the cb placed exactly right on what could be multiple balls is and entirely different game than breaking and playing the cb as it lays. A break in which you hope you get a shot at one ball. No comparisons in difficulty or skill required to play this game.

Hopefully I am correct for it is a 'great' game played this way! Whitey
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Even if they played it one way when the game was first created, doesn't mean we can't make it better by making minor adjustments. This is only my opinion and I base it on the same concept that was brought up earlier. It is a hard enough game as it is and to make it even harder by losing 20% of your potential ball total, just because of a scratch on a break, that is rough! :)

What if they played one hole that way? Scratch on the break and you lose the game!
Cincy Kid, you getting to far out there. Stay focused. We are trying to establish the grass roots of the game. Every game has grass roots which makes for a base.
This game was never intended to be easy! Just the opposite, the hustle is to make it appear to be easy. Here is the hustle, you watch a guys speed. You walk up to him and state; " I will give you 5 racks of breaking a full rack of balls to make 10 balls in one corner foot pocket, any scratch or miss shot the rack ends". The guy jumps at it! This is the game, this is the hustle.

And no one is eliminating the ability to play the game as a Scratch/Break BIH-BTL, but should this be the standard over what could be the original way to play the game. What is wrong with it being an alternative. This is the part I do not get, it is still there, still useable.

I love the challenge of the break, I would hate to see that disappear by it being suggested that a Scratch/Break is the standard way to play this game. Whitey
 
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cincy_kid

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I see what you are saying Whitey, but think about it this way.

A player breaks (they dont make a ball) but they get to shoot again until they miss.

Why should it be any different f they scratch? They break, they get to shoot again until they miss.

Should there be a penalty of they scratch on the break? Yes, -1 to start. But to lose the game or forfeit the entire rack seems extreme.

I am curious to see what the veterans might remember about it in the old days.

Thanks for the discussion!
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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I see what you are saying Whitey, but think about it this way.

A player breaks (they dont make a ball) but they get to shoot again until they miss.

Why should it be any different f they scratch? They break, they get to shoot again until they miss.

Should there be a penalty of they scratch on the break? Yes, -1 to start. But to lose the game or forfeit the entire rack seems extreme.

I am curious to see what the veterans might remember about it in the old days.

Thanks for the discussion!
This game was never intended to be easy, period. It is one hard ass game. No quarter given, no quarter taken. It is unforgiven, there is money on the line.
The key to the game is to master the break, if you scratch you better either change your break or change the speed of your break! Anytime you scratch in this game you hit it bad. There is no reward in hitting any shot in this game bad, especially the break. Remember money is on the line, you can not afford to scratch on the break. This is not kiddy land, you must understand this, to see where I am coming from.
Whitey
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Hey guys, if there is no replies supporting the way I think the game was originally played, or if the consensus is they remember a scratch on the break is allowed, I then will adjust the standard game rule writing to reflect this. Easy to do.
I will then add a scratch on the break ends the rack as an alternative. I hope we can all be ok with this, for it is a great game and a great challenge to endeavor to master.
I believe the important new idea is to prominently display the MOT tournament rules and the 5 Rack game rules on the home page as a title only click on pop up.
I would like to see us discuss this! Whitey
 
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baby huey

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The Five Rack Challenge, as I would call it, could be a nice fit in our MOT and Seniors Events in that it could be played at the players leisure over the span of the tournament. Something like $50 a shot with the highest score getting the pot or paid down to the top four finishers. This could also be incorporated into other One Pocket Tournaments kinda like the 14.1 Challenge at DCC.
 

Billy Jackets

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Scratch ended the frame every time I played it.
If I remember correctly Nick Varner had a practice version of this, and in that, you got ball in hand after the break , behind the line, but I never saw anyone gamble that way, just practice, {because it brings the ball count up for weaker players.}
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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I PM'ed, Androd, and ask him the question the I and Steve would like answered about how the break was played. I believe he is ok with me posting his reply, for I stated it was for the thread.
Here is his answer:
Scratch on the break, inning over in the old days.

Thank you for your reply Androd, it is greatly appreciated by I and Steve, and others that would like to know.
 

Ratamon

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Ratamon, duly noted, and I did adjust this as Bob Jewett brought this up. It will get corrected on the final draft. The owed ball along with any neutral balls pocketed will be spotted at the tail end.
But, you agree with Steve, does that mean you know how the game was originally played. That is what we are looking for, members to speak up that know how the game was originally played. thanks, Whitey
I wasn't but equally I don't think we should stick to those rules if we could make them better. Everyone plays 9-ball by the Texas express rules these days which are a far cry from where the rules stood originally. An oldie is not always a goodie.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Nice job Dennis!! I’m still working so I can’t give it my full attention yet but I’ll take a closer look once I get home.
Steve, this is your comment when I first had this up!
I 'am back on track with the way you like the game to be played and represented. Ready for scrutinizing and finalizing!

1st. Draft:
------------------------------------------------
5 Rack One Pocket
A proposition game in which the player is charged that within 5 racks of balls they need to pocket a predetermined x-amount of balls in their declared scoring pocket, to win the game. There are no requirements placed upon the break, and thereupon the cue ball is played from where it lays, unless a -1pt. pocket scratch or -1 pt. foul occurs then the player receives BIH-BTL, and rack continues. Thereafter a scratch -1pt., a foul -1pt. or any miss shot ends the rack. A ball scored on the break, counts. Neutrally pocketed balls and/or the owed ball are all spotted once all other balls have been scored.

Game Variations:
1. A break scratch/foul ends the rack,
2. After break BIH - anywhere,
3. Multiple players - highest score wins.
* Any further/or alternative rules of play are to be determined between the opponents, or by the event administrative authority *
------------------------------------------------
 
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Billy Jackets

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Thanks, I have been in a funk for months, but this game has at least got me hitting a few balls. If a guy drops the expectations, and not set their sights to high, it then will come. Example, you trying to run 15, it would come easier, I'd say much easier if you were just playing with no expectation.

This game is all about the break, it has to be hit consistently. It all starts with the break. I believe a guy should mix up the break to keep the game from being monotonous, and of course switch pockets.

I believe if a guy wants to get the most out of this game, it then comes down to each shot and that is all that is important, not how many balls are run. So if you approach it as a practice then this is what I would suggest:
On each shot; get the shape you want, if not reset up the shot and shoot it until you get that shape within 1"- 2" max. then go to the next shot. This is independent upon whether the ball is made or not. If you miss, set it up again and continue, work through every rack! Whitey
Much better results than chasing a number. I don't know 1 pool layer that does not have his game over rated {unless he is matching up} by at least a ball , sometimes as much as 3 balls. Not sure if they are high or not.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Much better results than chasing a number. I don't know 1 pool layer that does not have his game over rated {unless he is matching up} by at least a ball , sometimes as much as 3 balls. Not sure if they are high or not.
Thanks for recognizing the benefits, now I need to do as I preach! It is all to easy to get caught up in seeing how many balls I can run vs. resetting it up and working through the shot until the correct positioning is obtained. This is how I practiced if I had a 14.1 match coming up. 14.1 is a beautiful game when a guy can play the position he wants!
This has been a good thread with a lot of info shared. I think it is going to progress into a game rule being adopted, plus other good things for OP.org.
It sure has been good thread during this times, and helps us (2,000 views) get through these virus dark days. Steve's site has surely been a blessing during these times. I am pretty much quarantined!
thanks Cincy for the thread, and thanks Steve for the site. Whitey
 

Billy Jackets

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Steve, at least on this thread I am unable to find Jay's statement; "it's hard enough anyway, why add such a major hurdle?" Must have been made somewhere else. But a few are siding with this view vs. playing the scratch unforgiving way. No one has ventured to speak up in support of my view.

***Forgiving the scratch on the break is ok, but of course with most rules it does get abused and thus changes the intent of the game, when players intentionally scratch.***

I have two reputable members, Billy Jackets & Androd, that state the game was played with a scratch at anytime ends the rack. It only proves that I am not going totally off my rocker. I for one really appreciate their input, as you do of course.

You have my guidance input, the decision as to which should be the standard, is yours of course. I am really ok either way.
Whitey
Sorry I was so late with my reply, I just never read this thread for some reason.
Scratch ended the frame every time I played it.
If I remember correctly Nick Varner had a practice version of this, and in that, you got ball in hand after the break , behind the line, but I never saw anyone gamble that way, just practice, {because it brings the ball count up for weaker players.}
I was never witness to the challenge at DCC so I will accept Steves explanation of how they played it there.
My suggestion was actually that the rules be simplified given it is essentially a "Ghost" game first and foremost, that is sometimes utilized in a gambling setting and sometimes utilized in a multiplayer challenge "tournament". In that regard I do not see the need to nitpick things like whether the cue ball is wholly behind the line or the base of the ball is behind the line within the "rules" -- leave the nitpicking to others lol.

The more little rules you put in this, the more technicalities you offer to a side bettor to bring up if the slightest thing that happens during the shooters 5 racks with money involved, if you ask me. The less rules the better. Let the shooter shoot and tally up the balls to determine a win or not — otherwise you’ll get sudden timely claims in the 5th rack — “you fouled, game over”.

I also see no need to consider a scratch or foul on the break as nullifying that rack attempt. The whole point of the "game" is to see how many balls you can run per rack; why would you want to cut off an entire rack before it even begins? If you don't want to give BIH on a breaking scratch, then make the player re-break, with a penalty of -1 applied. Likewise if you don't contact the rack at all -- so what? Just do a re-break and if you want, penalize -1. Again, the point is simply to see how many balls you can cumulatively run in 5 racks.

Where did the idea of a scratch on the break nullifying the entire rack come from? My own experience is limited to the last dozen years or so (since I was involved every year they had this challenge at DCC). But it does in some form date back to Johnston City according to what I have heard from older players. I never heard of a scratch on the break nullifying the rack.
I never meant my post to be a cause of contention , just stating how we gambled at it.
We are talking about 2 different animals though, right from the start.
The DCC venue was for great players to take a 50 dollar pop at a prize fund. It was meant to be another spectacle for the fans and showcase abilities, of course they want someone to shoot 75 . So you make it favorable for the shooter
When I was gambling ,my focus was the exact opposite. I did not cheat anyone, but I made sure everyone knew the rules and followed them.
Side bettors were never welcome in my action.
I never dumped , so they were absolutely useless, as far as I was concerned.
I never really cared what rules we played by, as long as everyone was playing by the same ones.
My gambling experiences are much different than yours, whenever the rules were"loose" there was no end to the tries at manipulating them.
When the rules were written in stone , there was not much to argue about.
I would have no problem with scratches on break minus 1 , or even scratches don't count, I would just adjust the score they had to go to accordingly.

You don't understand why anyone would think a scratch on the break should end the rack, and I can't understand why such a big mistake and possible advantage should not have a big penalty. {Unless you are just having fun!}
Just different ways of viewing the same situation, neither is wrong or right in my view, just pick the one you like for the circumstances.
 
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