5 rack game?

[12squared]

I just watched Josh Filler play this game on the other thread, and in the end the game ate him up alive. It is brutal, even for this world champion.
What was alarming was the rules they were playing by, for it was as if they were making them up as they went. Ben the guy that made the sweaters bet to make it interesting obviously did not know the rules of the game either, or he was very forgiving to just play along and have a good time.
This how it went:
You get to break and then get ball in hand, ok, but you do not have to declare your pocket ahead of time, What! So when the break favored one pocket then that was what was shot at. Then after that was ridiculously easy they changed the bet to calling the pocket before the break.
Next a scratch and I suppose any foul is not a loss of a point. What Again!
Next he made a neutral pocketed ball during his rack, and then Filler got stuck without a shot, and then randomly spotted that ball so he could do a bank. Wow! Another time he made a neutral ball during the break and he spotted it up right away, which is opposite of us, where we spot it at the end.

I feel this thread is just half complete for we have not finalized the rules of the game, which became a goal of this thread, and if this above all over the place performance does not clearly bring it home that OP.org needs to really take this to heart and establish the rules for this game, I do not know what does.
I know, there place their rules, but really, well at least we should give them a good idea where to start.

Other than that this has been the greatest of threads, thanks guys for making it happen!
Happy Holidays! Whitey

The one pocket ghost was new to the basement and that was the first time Joshua ever tried it, they didn't know the rules. Over the next month or so, the rules morphed to call pocket before the break, scratches do not count on the break (still ball in hand), all balls made in other pockets stayed down so could not be counted, and I don't remember if they lost a ball on a scratch after the break or not.

Joshua was playing the ghost over under 45.5 in the end and winning most of the 5 rack challenges. He is awesome and the reason I even started to try to run all 15, which I finally did on the 153rd try. I was very thankful.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

Dave

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

https://photos.app.goo.gl/AK4rzsdNfdR5eoqV7 I did this break 5 consecutive times and got a successful break each time, even though I did not exactly hit it that well.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/3xvFAPK7Pwj8CMiq5 This break is just a little softer version of the above break.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/pzSTT8drGNRgUsxaA I really like this break, but it is essential that you hit the 2nd ball full, otherwise you could get in trouble, and you can not nip the head ball for that leads to disaster. But what a beautiful simple break! I would think with this break a guy might be able to master it.

The goal of these breaks is not to have balls go up table, leave working room on the opponent's side to get in behind the balls, and to get a shot to work the balls.
With balls that are newer and more lively than mine, I then believe they would open up more. I would really like to see the soft break with better balls.
Good luck! Whitey

 

[12squared]

https://photos.app.goo.gl/AK4rzsdNfdR5eoqV7 I did this break 5 consecutive times and got a successful break each time, even though I did not exactly hit it that well.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/3xvFAPK7Pwj8CMiq5 This break is just a little softer version of the above break.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/pzSTT8drGNRgUsxaA I really like this break, but it is essential that you hit the 2nd ball full, otherwise you could get in trouble, and you can not nip the head ball for that leads to disaster. But what a beautiful simple break! I would think with this break a guy might be able to master it.

The goal of these breaks is not to have balls go up table, leave working room on the opponent's side to get in behind the balls, and to get a shot to work the balls.
With balls that are newer and more lively than mine, I then believe they would open up more. I would really like to see the soft break with better balls.
Good luck! Whitey

Thanks Whitey.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

https://photos.app.goo.gl/kg4sJLyg5Vecqx219
https://photos.app.goo.gl/7qxpgWshFm9oBJgPA
https://photos.app.goo.gl/F5n6Kw7XxKqCQcv58 not sure I caught any of the 5 ball but notice how full I hit the 1. I sure let up on the force but look how nice it turned out. With the reverse it makes the cue go more directly into the foot rail. This might be a helpful hint if you are having trouble scratching.

Dave, play with this break with the cue ball position like I have it, and see if it works for you! This might give you a more favorable angle going into the 3rd ball.
Also try just just straight no english hitting it soft, or whatever.
Whitey

 

[Billy Jackets]

https://photos.app.goo.gl/kg4sJLyg5Vecqx219
https://photos.app.goo.gl/7qxpgWshFm9oBJgPA
https://photos.app.goo.gl/F5n6Kw7XxKqCQcv58 not sure I caught any of the 5 ball but notice how full I hit the 1. I sure let up on the force but look how nice it turned out. With the reverse it makes the cue go more directly into the foot rail. This might be a helpful hint if you are having trouble scratching.

Dave, play with this break with the cue ball position like I have it, and see if it works for you! This might give you a more favorable angle going into the 3rd ball.
Also try just just straight no english hitting it soft, or whatever.
Whitey

You are one tenacious son of a gun , I'm glad we didn't cross paths when I gambled . Nice stroke also.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Thanks Steve, Billy Jackets, and 12 Squared!
This break seems pretty reliable but I was just goofing around in-between other things, so not really fully tested. I do not dare continue shooting for it would really show that I have not been hitting any balls. But glad to share the breaks, and it just might work for you guys.
Whitey

 

[Billy Jackets]

My goofy doctor had me taking lasics and it was causing me severe kidney pain and problems , I got a new doc and I am feeling much better , I'm trying to move around enough to be able to go down and video some stuff. I just saw a thread where the guy said there is no return shot from a common position on the table , but I have a nice little shot I will show, that not everybody knows.

 

[catkins]

that last break is super nice I might try it

 

[12squared]

https://photos.app.goo.gl/kg4sJLyg5Vecqx219
https://photos.app.goo.gl/7qxpgWshFm9oBJgPA
https://photos.app.goo.gl/F5n6Kw7XxKqCQcv58 not sure I caught any of the 5 ball but notice how full I hit the 1. I sure let up on the force but look how nice it turned out. With the reverse it makes the cue go more directly into the foot rail. This might be a helpful hint if you are having trouble scratching.

Dave, play with this break with the cue ball position like I have it, and see if it works for you! This might give you a more favorable angle going into the 3rd ball.
Also try just just straight no english hitting it soft, or whatever.
Whitey

Whitey, I thought I'd give that 3rd ball break a try playing a full 5 rack. I did it from both sides just to see the difference. It's clear I cannot stroke the ball the same off the rail with inside nor hit the break as you can, but similar results in scoring. I had a 27 from the left and a 28 from the right, but almost scratched a couple times breaking from the right.

Note: I didn't care about the score I just wanted to get 5 breaks in from each. It could be a good one with practice, thanks.

 

[catkins]

I think your shaft is dirty it seems much darker than before

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Thanks Dave,
I fast forward to view each break and then slowed down the video so I could see the hit on the 3rd ball. I seen pretty much 10 successful breaks. What I am liking about this break is that it is somewhat forgiving for if the cue ball contacts the 3rd ball a little thin and then comes back up table it still seems there is a shot.
I notice on the left side you are using more of a back hand stroke vs. the right side where it appears you are using a standard inside reverse english stroke. The final break from the right side it seemed you let your stroke out more, and that was really a great spread/break.

Thanks for working the 3rd ball break. It was very gratifying for me to see the cue ball go to foot rail on a 9' table as it does for me. There is less space available but only once did you catch the side rail. I place the base of the ball on the line to give me more angle into the 3rd ball. I notice you are placing the whole ball behind the line, this will change the angle by a few degrees.

You was getting so much reverse coming off the foot rail it appeared you could do the laughable miracle break, and wow the opponent's side sure was cleared out! Very impressive.

I hit some 3rd. ball breaks yesterday and it worked ok, and I liked working the table and was getting some fair scores.
Your 27 and 28 is very highly respectable, and an avg. that a whole lot of players wish they could do, actually a small % of players could do that. I am thinking along those lines with this break of around 25 - 30 for an avg. That is actually a pretty darn high level for playing from where the ball lies. If the break is pretty reliable, it then is up to the player's abilities.

I tried a 3rd ball break with no english and it did not work.
thanks again for working through this! Whitey

 

[catkins]

There is an aggressive break I use against players I feel will not run out that opens everything up I might try that it is a second ball break but with a low ball and masse into the second ball to increase speed while still controlling cue ball will post video results later

 

[12squared]

I think your shaft is dirty it seems much darker than before

Yes, this pandemic has made me do crazy things.

 

[12squared]

Thanks Dave,
I fast forward to view each break and then slowed down the video so I could see the hit on the 3rd ball. I seen pretty much 10 successful breaks. What I am liking about this break is that it is somewhat forgiving for if the cue ball contacts the 3rd ball a little thin and then comes back up table it still seems there is a shot.
I notice on the left side you are using more of a back hand stroke vs. the right side where it appears you are using a standard inside reverse english stroke. The final break from the right side it seemed you let your stroke out more, and that was really a great spread/break.

Thanks for working the 3rd ball break. It was very gratifying for me to see the cue ball go to foot rail on a 9' table as it does for me. There is less space available but only once did you catch the side rail. I place the base of the ball on the line to give me more angle into the 3rd ball. I notice you are placing the whole ball behind the line, this will change the angle by a few degrees.

You was getting so much reverse coming off the foot rail it appeared you could do the laughable miracle break, and wow the opponent's side sure was cleared out! Very impressive.

I hit some 3rd. ball breaks yesterday and it worked ok, and I liked working the table and was getting some fair scores.
Your 27 and 28 is very highly respectable, and an avg. that a whole lot of players wish they could do, actually a small % of players could do that. I am thinking along those lines with this break of around 25 - 30 for an avg. That is actually a pretty darn high level for playing from where the ball lies. If the break is pretty reliable, it then is up to the player's abilities.

I tried a 3rd ball break with no english and it did not work.
thanks again for working through this! Whitey

Thanks for taking the time to analyze how I was breaking. I'm not a fan of the 2nd ball break as I scratched too much. If you remember I played around with the full 2nd ball break at slow speeds early in the 5 rack attempts. But the 3rd ball break seems forgiving enough as you mentioned.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

I'd like us guys to work on this! What do you think about it?
Lets suppose that this 5 Rack Ghost game gets picked up by the MOT tournament as a sideline downtime something to do event.

So with that then these questions,

What break of the 3 would work the best.
What buy in amount, and should there be a re-buy in, and if so would there be a limit on re-buys.
Jackpot pay off, winner take all or have places.
How long would it run for.
Open to every MOT entry, I would think.
Anything Else?

Should we first start off with discussions on which break & buy in amount & Jackpot payout!

The 3 breaks from easiest to hardest are:
Break and take ball in hand anywhere. A break scratch ends the rack. I believe a scratch would seldom happen with this break.
Break and a scratch is -1pt w/ BIH-BTL.
Break and play cue ball where it lies. A break scratch ends the rack.
thanks, Whitey

 

[cincy_kid]

Lets suppose that this 5 Rack Ghost game gets picked up by the MOT tournament as a sideline downtime something to do event.

So with that then these questions,

What break of the 3 would work the best.
What buy in amount, and should there be a re-buy in, and if so would there be a limit on re-buys.
Jackpot pay off, winner take all or have places.
How long would it run for.
Open to every MOT entry, I would think.
Anything Else?
I hope we get enough responses to get some idea of an initial format.

Should we start off with which break & buy in amount? thanks, Whitey

You could make it like $20 or $30 a chance (includes 5 racks), re-buy as many times as you would like until a certain time where it cuts off.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Cincy,
thanks for joining in on this. I believe you are planning on going to the next MOT, and I have been to the 2018. So I believe this 5 Rack Ghost would fit in nicely once the round of 16 is over and in-between match ups.

I was thinking about the breaks. I believe a scratch on the break no matter which break is used, could be waived in this instance, game continues -1 from behind the line. Of course it would have to be decided which break to use prior to the event.
I am partial to ball in hand anywhere, accept I sure would like to see the variety of breaks with playing cue ball where it lies. But that is one tough game.
What do you think!

I like a twenty to enter and re-buy ins. You get 3 or so guys close in score that might go crazy with the re-buy-ins.
thanks, Whitey

 

[12squared]

Cincy,
thanks for joining in on this. I believe you are planning on going to the next MOT, and I have been to the 2018. So I believe this 5 Rack Ghost would fit in nicely once the round of 16 is over and in-between match ups.

I was thinking about the breaks. I believe a scratch on the break no matter which break is used, could be waived in this instance, game continues -1 from behind the line. Of course it would have to be decided which break to use prior to the event.
I am partial to ball in hand anywhere, accept I sure would like to see the variety of breaks with playing cue ball where it lies. But that is one tough game.
What do you think!

I like a twenty to enter and re-buy ins. You get 3 or so guys close in score that might go crazy with the re-buy-ins.
thanks, Whitey

Each buy in you get 3 attempts? (Isn't that the way DCC did it)? Or would you prefer just one? Just throwing it out there.

 

[cincy_kid]

Each buy in you get 3 attempts? (Isn't that the way DCC did it)? Or would you prefer just one? Just throwing it out there.

I was thinking 20 for 1 chance at 5 racks but that was just off the top of my head. I would play no matter what it was but I would think you have to play cb where it lies no bih unless you scratch on the break... then you get bih behind the line with minus 1 score to start.

Yes I would love to go to the next mot...I went to 1st at Lacy's and 2nd at Chris's and have missed them since. It will all depend on when where and the state of the pandemic for me personally...i look forward to meeting up again and playing some one hole!!

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Dave & Cincy,
So a buy-in gets you 3 attempts at 5 rack ghost, correct! I would assume all 32 players would like a go at it. Do you guys think this would also be the case, all 32 guys wanting to get in.
If so, is there enough available time for 3 attempts. I would assume only 1 table would be used, correct.

Cincy, on your break suggestion. It would actually be; Break and Scratch -1pt. BIH - BTL.
For guys that do not know how to play from where the cb lies are going to try and scratch. Maybe 3a. fits your intent.

So I think these should be the choices of break that needs to be decided upon. listed from easiest to hardest.
1. Break and take ball in hand anywhere - a scratch is not a loss of rack, but -1pt. still BIH anywhere.
2. Break and a scratch is -1pt. rack continues w/ BIH-BTL
3. Break and play cb from where it lies - a scratch is loss of rack.
Or,
3a. Break and play cb from where it lies - no intentional scratch allowed - a scratch is a re-rack no loss of rack, but down -1pt.

I like the above options.

Maybe we could allow the breaker to choose which break they want if we first handicap the breaks. They would have to stick to the same break throughout the 5 racks.
1. Break w/ BIH anywhere - we then add a -2pt. for offsetting the BIH anywhere.
2. Break w/scratch BIH-BTL w/-1pt. This already handicapped.
3. Break play from where cb lies. no handicap.
Do you think this would be fair for those that want to play from where the cb lies?

thanks for brain storming, guys! Whitey