5 rack game?

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

12 square, that was beautifully done. The 2nd ball break is working very well, I'll try it the way you hit it. Well another rack of 15= congrats! Have you been practicing a lot, with the quarantine virus mode?
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To better answer your question about the 3 scratches. In One Pocket it was necessary because of the in stack intentional scratches. In 9 ball the game went from a shooters game to now a 3 cushion trap game - ball in hand anywhere, so why not throw in some more in the kitchen sink and add the 3 foul rule anyway. Whereas you foul - oh boy - I get ball in hand - now I am really going to bury you and work towards getting 3 fouls on you.

But the 5 rack OP game does not have any of the above factors involved in the game, for it is a shooters game. Plus it is not ever going to be a tournament game - so no need to end the game early with a 3 foul loss. Win or lose is best solved in any game by shooting!

I think it would be a good endeavor to keep the rules of this game as simplified as possible, for it comes across better for the player vs. being drowned in complexities. Game rules are suppose to be a basic guide line as to how the game is played, and of course you have to specify. In this case -5 racks - any foul ends the rack - x-amount of balls determined by opponents. Simple.

Game rules as always backed up by the General Rules, but where the problem comes in, is when the General Rules falls short in some areas. So now you have to re-write the general rule to properly express the rule and inter it into the game rule. But Game rules will always trump General rules.
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On your video I counted 29. Scary good, -2 balls plus -2 racks and still a 29! I better start practicing. thanks for the video, and the rule question.
I wonder if you agree with my answer of your question! Whitey

 

[12squared]

To better answer your question about the 3 scratches.

I appreciate your detailed explanation of the 3 foul question, but I was kind of kidding because I scratched on the break 2 times in a row .

Scoring was -1, -1, 15, 9, 5 (after the scratch). Thanks for the compliments. I have been hitting balls 3 times a week.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

I appreciate your detailed explanation of the 3 foul question, but I was kind of kidding because I scratched on the break 2 times in a row .

Scoring was -1, -1, 15, 9, 5 (after the scratch). Thanks for the compliments. I have been hitting balls 3 times a week.

I was actually expecting you to scratch a 3rd time on the break! LOL!

As far as I know the standard game of OP and this 5 Rack Game of OP, are the only two forms of OP games. And if so then this makes this 5 rack game pretty special, and deserving of having a unified game rule, so we are not all over the place in how it is to be played, and who better to clarify the game rule than OP.org.
After comments on the game rules have been finalized, of which it appears that there will not be many, I then would ask Cincy to approach the notion of having this game and its rules enter as a subtitle under our current heading, 'The Game'.

What do you think? thanks, Whitey

 

[cincy_kid]

dang 15 on a no ball in hand break!!! That's as strong as they come Dave! I thought I knew what spot I needed to play you but that number just went up

Good shooting!

 

[cincy_kid]

That's the break I used to use Whitey...but I never did so hot, so maybe I need to change it...

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

That's the break I used to use Whitey...but I never did so hot, so maybe I need to change it...

I usually hit it a little softer and not pull the cb back so far. But it the cb caught action and moved back further. It does not get much better than this example of this break, so do not expect such good results as this, as a norm anyway. But it does show what is possible, but you have to hit it good.

What do you think of the game rules, as they are in this stage of development? thanks, Whitey

 

[mr3cushion]

I appreciate your detailed explanation of the 3 foul question, but I was kind of kidding because I scratched on the break 2 times in a row .

Scoring was -1, -1, 15, 9, 5 (after the scratch). Thanks for the compliments. I have been hitting balls 3 times a week.

Hi Dave, very nice shooting! One question, why did you switch sides to break, being your RH?

 

[cincy_kid]

Hi Dave, very nice shooting! One question, why did you switch sides to break, being your RH?

I always break from the right to the left pocket, even in real one hole games even though I know a lot of people say the other side is better an easier to reach as a right hander when running balls. I guess I am just used to that side personally...

 

[cincy_kid]

I usually hit it a little softer and not pull the cb back so far. But it the cb caught action and moved back further. It does not get much better than this example of this break, so do not expect such good results as this, as a norm anyway. But it does show what is possible, but you have to hit it good.

What do you think of the game rules, as they are in this stage of development? thanks, Whitey

Looks good to me Whitey. I also could be wrong on the ball counting on the break but that was the way I remembered it.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Looks good to me Whitey. I also could be wrong on the ball counting on the break but that was the way I remembered it.

You are not wrong, nor would it be wrong to count it, for it appears this game is played differently across the country. So I would like to see a unified game rule.
I am pretty old school, and the standard game of OP is a ball pocketed on the break is counted. Period. So therefore my reasoning to count a score on the break, is because it complies with how the standard game of OP is played. Plus if the ball did not count then we would have to decide whether it spot immediately or not, and then the question is; do we rerack the balls, which might be fair if in this instance the ball scored was the players only shot, which could happen quite frequently for usually only one or two balls are able to pocketed after the break.

If the rule stays as a ball scored on the break counts. Then would we then need to have the opponent rack the balls w/ shooter's right to inspect.
This would be the true way OP is played!
The *sentence* could adjust this between opponents.

So I guess the big question is, should it be kept as; the player racks w/ opponent able to inspect and get the rack adjusted if warranted?

Any further discussion on a ball scored on the break is welcomed of course.
thanks for the discussion, I hope it continues! Whitey

 

[12squared]

I was actually expecting you to scratch a 3rd time on the break! LOL!

As far as I know the standard game of OP and this 5 Rack Game of OP, are the only two forms of OP games. And if so then this makes this 5 rack game pretty special, and deserving of having a unified game rule, so we are not all over the place in how it is to be played, and who better to clarify the game rule than OP.org.
After comments on the game rules have been finalized, of which it appears that there will not be many, I then would ask Cincy to approach the notion of having this game and its rules enter as a subtitle under our current heading, 'The Game'.

What do you think? thanks, Whitey

I actually thought I would be the first to post a negative score in 5 rack, but then the pool gods blessed me with a 15. Hard to figure.

 

[cincy_kid]

You are not wrong, nor would it be wrong to count it, for it appears this game is played differently across the country. So I would like to see a unified game rule.
I am pretty old school, and the standard game of OP is a ball pocketed on the break is counted. Period. So therefore my reasoning to count a score on the break, is because it complies with how the standard game of OP is played. Plus if the ball did not count then we would have to decide whether it spot immediately or not, and then the question is; do we rerack the balls, which might be fair if in this instance the ball scored was the players only shot, which could happen quite frequently for usually only one or two balls are able to pocketed after the break.

If the rule stays as a ball scored on the break counts. Then would we then need to have the opponent rack the balls w/ shooter's right to inspect.
This would be the true way OP is played!
The *sentence* could adjust this between opponents.

So I guess the big question is, should it be kept as; the player racks w/ opponent able to inspect and get the rack adjusted if warranted?

Any further discussion on a ball scored on the break is welcomed of course.
thanks for the discussion, I hope it continues! Whitey

IMO the game is hard enough as it is...if someone figures out a way to mess with the rack to give them a good break, more power to them.

 

[12squared]

dang 15 on a no ball in hand break!!! That's as strong as they come Dave! I thought I knew what spot I needed to play you but that number just went up

Good shooting!

Since you were spotting me 9-7 already, because of my lucky run I'll only take 9-8. Negotiation over

Hi Dave, very nice shooting! One question, why did you switch sides to break, being your RH?

Thanks Bill.

First, I'm doing this for fun and to have something focused to practice as I hate to practice and really don't know how to practice properly. Heck, it took me way longer to edit the video so it would work than shooting. I like to play both pockets as each have their advantages.

Secondly, did you not notice I was wearing pajamas? I was hoping to put a smile on a few faces as I almost 3 fouled myself not discuss details...except for that bank on the 14th ball using high karate to hold for the 15th ball, that was fun. I'm only sorry I had to edit the music and sound out because I let out a loud scream after that rack. And I still believe I would have missed 2-3 times during that run if playing on Chris's tight table.

But thanks everyone.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

IMO the game is hard enough as it is...if someone figures out a way to mess with the rack to give them a good break, more power to them.

I like that response. In today's world everyone wants to rack their own, pretty much anyway. And as long as the opponent does not mind, and has the right to inspect and have the rack adjusted then who cares. Plus after 5 racks and the guy is killing the break then the opponent can ask for the score to be adjusted.
I do not like the opponent racking for they can give such a bad rack, for this happens all the time when I am in a 8 ball tourny and opponent racks.
Also,
I believe the empowerment *sentence* would cover this if the opponents agreed to have the opponent rack. Or, I can adjust the wording slightly. Whitey

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

5 RACK ONE POCKET

The Game: It is a proposition game of One Pocket between a non-player and the player. The proposition is that the player has 5 racks of balls to score a predetermine x-amount of balls into one corner foot pocket. The x-amount of balls to be scored is determined by the opponents prior to the game starting.

The Rack: 15 balls are racked randomly within a standard triangle rack, by the player. The opponent has the right to inspect the rack and ask for corrections to be made if warranted.

The Break requirements: The designated scoring pocket must be declared before breaking the initial rack, with no further declaration needed unless there is a scoring pocket change on a subsequent rack. The entire cue ball must be placed within the kitchen. Any racked ball can be first contacted. There is no requirement for any ball to contact a rail, or to pocket a ball, but the rack must be contacted or it is a foul. A ball made in the designated scoring pocket, counts. Play continues from where the cue ball lays. After the opening break shot, play continues unless a foul has occurred, which ends the rack and the score is a -1 ball.

Rack Continuing: The rack continues only if a ball is scored. The rack will also end upon any foul. Each foul is a -1 ball deduction. If a ball is scored but a foul occurs it will not be scored, plus it is a loss of 1 scored ball, unless no balls have been scored then the score is a -1 ball. The ball count is tracked after each rack. Any balls made in a neutral pocket are spotted all at once after clearing the table by scoring all the other balls. All shots must be played with a standard playing cue only, no cue extensions allowed.

Game Won: The player must score the predetermined x-amount of balls within 5 racks.

* Any further rules of play or any alternative rules of play are to be determined between the opponents *
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Guys, I have been editing the game rule as we went along with this thread. Read this over carefully to see if there is any changes to be made. Check my grammar/punctuation of course. And comment back whether the game rule is ok or what is needed.
Thanks Guys, Whitey

 

[12squared]

5 RACK ONE POCKET

The Game: It is a proposition game of One Pocket between a non-player and the player. The proposition is that the player has 5 racks of balls to score a predetermine x-amount of balls into one corner foot pocket. The x-amount of balls to be scored is determined by the opponents prior to the game starting.

The Rack: 15 balls are racked randomly within a standard triangle rack, by the player. The opponent has the right to inspect the rack and ask for corrections to be made if warranted.

The Break requirements: The designated scoring pocket must be declared before breaking the initial rack, with no further declaration is needed unless there is a scoring pocket change on a subsequent rack. The entire cue ball must be placed within the kitchen. Any racked ball can be first contacted. There is no requirement for any ball to contact a rail, or to pocket a ball, but the rack must be contacted or it is a foul. A ball made in the designated scoring pocket, counts. Play continues from where the cue ball lays. After the opening break shot, play continues unless a foul has occurred, which ends the rack and the score is a -1 ball.

Rack Continuing: The rack continues only if a ball is scored. The rack will also end upon any foul. Each foul is a -1 ball deduction. If a ball is scored but a foul occurs it will not be scored, plus it is a loss of 1 scored ball, unless no balls have been scored then the score is a -1 ball. The ball count is tracked after each rack. Any balls made in a neutral pocket are spotted once all the other balls have been scored. All shots must be played with a standard playing cue only, no cue extensions allowed.

Game Won: The player must score the predetermined x-amount of balls within 5 racks.

* Any further rules of play or any alternative rules of play are to be determined between the opponents *
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Guys, I have been editing the game rule as we went along with this thread. Read this over carefully to see if there is any changes to be made. Check my grammar/punctuation of course. And comment back whether the game rule is ok or what is needed.
Thanks Guys, Whitey

Thanks for all your work on the rules, Whitey. I like them and well written. A point of clarification although I think you worded it properly, all previously made balls in neutral pockets get spotted at the same time after all balls are cleared, right? (Not one at a time).

Regarding whether or not the ball made on the break counts or not, I see both sides, but I think I would side that it should count. In this type of game, the break is way different than playing a standard match where your opponent may not get a turn at the table. In fact I think I'd rather have a ball hang then go in in case the balls lay funny. Again, good job.

 

[Ratamon]

Regarding whether or not the ball made on the break counts or not, I see both sides, but I think I would side that it should count. In this type of game, the break is way different than playing a standard match where your opponent may not get a turn at the table. In fact I think I'd rather have a ball hang then go in in case the balls lay funny. Again, good job.

Having thought about it a bit more, I’m in favour of a re-rack. Oftentimes this will be the only score-able ball by your pocket so the shooter will be disadvantaged if it goes, which isn’t fair.

 

[catkins]

I am torn on spotting all the balls at once at the end of yoru inning as I kinda feel balls made on the break should either stay down or spot immediately

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Thanks guys for the comments!
It appears we have two rule concerns and a clarification. That we can further discuss. I'll put in my two cents.

The re-rack of the balls if a ball is made on the break.
Decide whether or not a neutral ball should be spotted immediately or at the end upon clearing the balls.
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The Re-Rack: I am not in favor of this because; it takes away a scored ball from the count. It is just one player so therefore their play continues anyway, so no real advantage. There is a 'possible' disadvantage if of course that is the only ball you might of had to continue the rack.
I'd rather that there be no question that this game is 5 racks only as the title suggests. I am not in favor of adding more complexities to the rule writing, and not sure this rises enough concern to warrant that. I believe the * sentence * covers this since I now have added 'any alternative rules of play' are to be determined by the opponents.

Spotting a neutral ball immediately vs. at end: Spotting a ball immediately would effect the break as well as any other time, so it is just not on the break, for clarification.
On the break generally there is a cluster, so therefore the ball spotted would be placed at the bottom of the cluster, most likely. My biggest concern is that it could ruin what otherwise might be a good combination, or even an open shot.
I know there is the side of this also that it might create a shot, but I think this is slim vs. screwing up a shot - but by the ball going into a neutral pocket would mean that ball would of most likely never of ended up in that spotted position to effect these possible shots, in the first place. Because, most likely the breaking speed just does not put much movement upon the balls.

Considering spotting a ball or balls at the end once the balls have been cleared. I believe the concern here is that more than one ball could be spotted, which would make it more than likely you would have to lay for a bank. I think it is a very slim chance of more than one neutral ball being spotted. I believe it would be rare in this game.

I'll clarify 'all neutral balls' spot at the once, once the table is cleared, if we decide in favor of this vs. spotting immediately.

So I have presented some different scenarios to help in reasoning out these two raised concerns. Decisions are tough at times.

Lets have further discussion on these two concerns, so decisions can be made. Hopefully we have good participation on these two concerns.
thanks again guys! Whitey

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

12 squared,
I edited the neutral ball / spotting sentence to add more clarity.

Guys,
If there are no further comments tipping the scale towards a re-rack if a ball is scored on the break, or tipping the scale towards a neutral ball being spotted immediately, I then will go with what we have thus far. So speak up!

I am real appreciative of the comments and input and discussions. thanks, Whitey