5 rack game?

NH Steve

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My suggestion was actually that the rules be simplified given it is essentially a "Ghost" game first and foremost, that is sometimes utilized in a gambling setting and sometimes utilized in a multiplayer challenge "tournament". In that regard I do not see the need to nitpick things like whether the cue ball is wholly behind the line or the base of the ball is behind the line within the "rules" -- leave the nitpicking to others lol.

The more little rules you put in this, the more technicalities you offer to a side bettor to bring up if the slightest thing that happens during the shooters 5 racks with money involved, if you ask me. The less rules the better. Let the shooter shoot and tally up the balls to determine a win or not — otherwise you’ll get sudden timely claims in the 5th rack — “you fouled, game over”.

I also see no need to consider a scratch or foul on the break as nullifying that rack attempt. The whole point of the "game" is to see how many balls you can run per rack; why would you want to cut off an entire rack before it even begins? If you don't want to give BIH on a breaking scratch, then make the player re-break, with a penalty of -1 applied. Likewise if you don't contact the rack at all -- so what? Just do a re-break and if you want, penalize -1. Again, the point is simply to see how many balls you can cumulatively run in 5 racks.

Where did the idea of a scratch on the break nullifying the entire rack come from? My own experience is limited to the last dozen years or so (since I was involved every year they had this challenge at DCC). But it does in some form date back to Johnston City according to what I have heard from older players. I never heard of a scratch on the break nullifying the rack.
 

NH Steve

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One Pocket Ghost

  • Pocket selection prior to break
  • Free break from behind the line any legal pool shot
  • Balls made on the break in your own pocket stay down & count
  • Cue ball played where it lies after the break
  • Re-break on a scratch on the break -1 penalty
  • Shoot at your own pocket only, until you miss or scratch/foul each rack -1 standard foul penalty
  • Cue ball fouls only
  • All balls pocketed in neutral pockets are held for spotting if the table is cleared, then all spotted at once
If anyone can shorten this more, I would probably like it even better!
 
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Dennis "Whitey" Young

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5 RACK ONE POCKET

The Game:
It is a proposition game of One Pocket between a non-player and the player. The proposition is that the player has 5 racks of balls to score a predetermine x-amount of balls into one corner foot pocket. The x-amount of balls to be scored is determined by the opponents prior to the game starting.

The Rack: 15 balls are racked randomly within a standard triangle rack, by the player. The opponent has the right to inspect the rack and ask for corrections to be made if warranted.

The Break requirements: The designated scoring pocket must be declared before breaking the initial rack, with no further declaration needed unless there is a scoring pocket change on a subsequent rack. The cue ball must be placed within the kitchen. Any racked ball can be first contacted. There is no requirement for any ball to contact a rail, or to pocket a ball, but the rack must be contacted or it is a foul. A ball made in the designated scoring pocket, counts. Play continues from where the cue ball lays. After the opening break shot, play continues unless a previous foul has occurred, which ends the rack and the score is a -1 ball.

Rack Continuing: The rack continues only if a ball is scored. The rack will also end upon any foul. Each foul is a -1 ball deduction. If a ball is scored but a foul occurs it will not be scored, plus it is a loss of 1 scored ball, unless no balls have been scored then the score is a -1 ball. The rack and ball count are tracked after each rack. Any balls pocketed in a neutral pocket are to be spotted all at once, and only after clearing the table by scoring all the other balls. All shots must only be played with the player's playing cue.

Game Won: The player must score the predetermined x-amount of balls within 5 racks.

* Any further rules of play or any alternative rules of play are to be determined between the opponents *
-------------------------------------------------------------
ATERNATIVE GAMES / RULES

5 Rack OP / Scratch Break
Break;
it is allowed to scratch on the break and continue the rack. If the player scratches on the break they then receive ball in hand behind the line. The score is -1 ball owed to the table, and is spotted only after clearing the table by scoring all the other balls.
All other break and game rules apply

5 Rack OP / Ball in Hand Anywhere
Break;
upon breaking the rack of balls the shooter thereafter receives ball in hand anywhere.
All other break and game rules apply

Tournament Play
When the game is played by multiple players such as in a tournament format then any of the above games can be adopted by the governing event authority. The tournament is then won by the player who scores the highest score.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Guys, I took out the comments from my previous post, so you can view the game rules at this point. I have added the Alternative Games / Rules to cover all variations of the main game rule. I think this is important, since this game is not well known in the first place, and I wanted players to know the variations.

Steve has made a comment, which would take a lengthy reply, to cover all that he has brought up, and I will if needed.
I will make this comment; Since this is the only other game of OP that we know of, I then think it respectively deserves a nicely written up game rule.

Are there any other suggestions, or maybe it is good to go and you can make that comment also. thanks, Whitey
 
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Dennis "Whitey" Young

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https://photos.app.goo.gl/PTACYFnrsBtdtSrr6
As you can see I am pretty excited about this break. This is the break I have always envisioned that pros would eventually develop for this game.
In using this break I just shot a 34 and was at 32 in 4 racks, and had a wide open spread even better than the one in the video but missed my 3rd shot which I should of never of missed. So a 40 was definitely in range.

You'll notice balls coming back in play, and most balls are in play. I did 5 racks with a ball spread as good or better than this break, and with excellent opening shots. So understandable I am excited. I knew I would bust this game wide open. I can not wait to see how my count continues to progress from here on out.
Enjoy working through this break if you choose to, I know I am! Whitey

PS. I am probably over reacting and just might of got lucky for 5 racks! This is a very tough game and the break to get it down is extremely tough but this is what makes the game, it is not suppose to be easy!
This break can be stroked a little softer and still get a great effect, plus it is easier to control the cb!
 
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jay helfert

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Jay Helfert used to sell DVDs of one pocket ghost challenge from 2011 DCC. I think Mika won it with 58 balls. Alex P. and John Schmidt made good runs of over 50, too. Does anyone have those videos?
I just checked and I still have a few copies of Mika's 58, Alex's 53 and 55, and John Schmidt's 53. All of these were done in 2011. Unfortunately we did not record Gabe's amazing 60, which was done on a tournament table at the old Executive West a year earlier. The way we played was the player would break the balls wide open and shoot from there. Allen Hopkins schooled all the top players on how to break the balls and their high runs went from the high 30's and low 40's, to mid to high 40's and the 50's mentioned above. We played that a scratch on the break cost you a ball and you shot from behind the line. It was not a loss of turn! The best players did not avail themselves of this option, preferring to break in such a way they had balls open for their pocket and an open shot. Scratching on the break (which was relatively easy to do) did not open the pack that well.

You can find the above DVD's on my website, jayhelfert.com. As a special for anyone buying them from OnePocket.org, if you buy three of them I will throw in the fourth one for free. All four of the DVD's listed have some phenomenal run outs on them. In my era, the best players (like Ronnie Allen, Jersey Red, Boston Shorty and Johnny Ervolino) used to shoot at 25 to 28 and only Harold Worst had to go to 30. Before you think that today's players are so much stronger, remember that it may have taken Mika, Alex and Schmitty five or more tries to make this one big run. ALL the best players frequently had innings with zero, one or two balls made. Usually if they had two innings in a row like that they would just pay the money ($50) and start over again.
 
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lll

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jay i went to your website and clicked to buy the dvds but the screen was frozen
 

catkins

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https://photos.app.goo.gl/PTACYFnrsBtdtSrr6
As you can see I am pretty excited about this break. This is the break I have always envisioned that pros would eventually develop for this game.
In using this break I just shot a 34 and was at 32 in 4 racks, and had a wide open spread even better than the one in the video but missed my 3rd shot which I should of never of missed. So a 40 was definitely in range.

You'll notice balls coming back in play, and most balls are in play. I did 5 racks with a ball spread as good or better than this break, and with excellent opening shots. So understandable I am excited. I knew I would bust this game wide open. I can not wait to see how my count continues to progress from here on out.
Enjoy working through this break if you choose to, I know I am! Whitey

PS. I am probably over reacting and just might of got lucky for 5 racks! This is a very tough game and the break to get it down is extremely tough but this is what makes the game, it is not suppose to be easy!
This break can be stroked a little softer and still get a great effect, plus it is easier to control the cb!
Nice break there I like it
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Nice break there I like it
Thank you, I also like your previous post, whereas you get a different focus if you charge yourself a goal of 22 points. That is the essence of this game, a proposition game of scoring x-amount of balls.

And thanks to Cincy Kid for the thumbs up. A very similar break can be obtained by not hitting it quite as hard. I was working on that today, and it was easier to control the cb. Whitey
 

sorackem

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Yeah, Whitey. I liked that perspective of motivation that Catkins posted, as well.
Just wish I had a table around somewhere to utilize the advice.
 

catkins

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what my ideal is is to draw the cue ball 4 inches and control the head ball to leave me a straight in. When it works it is great though all the balls tend to go to the opposite hole but as long as you can play tight position it is what i like
 

jay helfert

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jay i went to your website and clicked to buy the dvds but the screen was frozen
I've got my website guy working on that now. I'll let you know when we get it straightened out. Okay, he said I may have to refresh my computer by holding down Control and F5 at the same time. Lo and behold it worked! I was having the same problem as you, adding one of these DVD's to my cart and now it's working fine.
 
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Dennis "Whitey" Young

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https://photos.app.goo.gl/EUJ6yKmeny7rrD1Z6 I have not worked this break at all, so I am not sure how reliable it is.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/hqEKHTFPsPWC2Mgt9
This is a situation scenario that seems to come up quite often. A decision to break open the balls some more or not. Mr3c stated to me that straight pool players have an advantage in this game. In regards to open up these small clusters he is absolutely right. I find they have to be opened up exactly right or otherwise you will often trap yourself for there is only one hole to shoot at.
This is the precision that this game requires.

I have been working the head ball break quite a bit, and of course it is an endeavor to try and come with the golden break! So I am hesitant in getting Jay's videos showing the break Hopkins uses, because I am having to much enjoyment in working on it myself, but I know I'll be getting those videos, one day.
It is sure is nice having Jay add to Cincy's thread, and appreciated. Whitey

https://photos.app.goo.gl/VmR23Hbq28obstGR8 Here is the same break from the head spot with an elevated cue and a moderate force, but I hit the head 15 ball slightly on the right as we are looking at it. This moved it to our left and opened up two other balls to my hole. As with any break as I am finding out, it has to be hit exactly, but this photo shows what is possible.
 
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jay helfert

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https://photos.app.goo.gl/VmR23Hbq28obstGR8
**** Just for Fun**** How would you go about running this rack, or how would you start off to run this rack? The 4 ball also goes! Your pocket is lower right!

Thanks in advance for participating if you choose to do so! Whitey
This is an ideal rack for a strong player (Alex, Mika, Schmidt etc.). They are laying so good that guys like this would probably get at least nine or ten balls here, maybe more.
 

cincy_kid

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This is an ideal rack for a strong player (Alex, Mika, Schmidt etc.). They are laying so good that guys like this would probably get at least nine or ten balls here, maybe more.
I agree...I like shooting the 3 first here and bumping the ball down a little so i can shoot the stripe next. Saving the 8 or 4, if I come up to far later in the run...
 

jay helfert

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I agree...I like shooting the 3 first here and bumping the ball down a little so i can shoot the stripe next. Saving the 8 or 4, if I come up to far later in the run...
Yep, and the 7 might even break the 9 off the 10, opening up even more balls.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Thanks guys for participating, I am going to try and get the full picture up there, so you guys do not have to flip back and forth and click on it. I am just not good at that, but I'll get it.

Ok, I got the picture up, and other views. So you guys can put up how you run this layout, or how you start off running this rack!
thanks, Whitey
 
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