Another rule question, about the break...

NH Steve

Administrator
Joined
Apr 25, 2004
Messages
8,984
On the opening break, should an object ball have to hit the rail?

Our rules say no, the BCA says yes. What is your experience with this?

Ours:
On the break, the cue ball may contact either a cushion or any ball in the rack first, but in either case, after contacting at least one ball, an object ball must be pocketed, or the cue ball or at least one object ball must contact a rail, otherwise it is a one foul penalty.


Theirs:
Starting player must (1) legally pocket an object ball into his targeted pocket, or (2) cause the cue ball to contact an object ball and after contact, at least one object ball must contact a cushion. Failure to do so is a foul. Note: The cue ball does not have to strike a rail on the opening break.
 

Cowboy Dennis

Suspended
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
11,123
Break rule

Break rule

An object ball does not have to hit a rail. Either an object ball or the cueball must hit a rail after the cueball hits the rack.
 

Artie Bodendorfer

Verified Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2005
Messages
4,271
NH Steve said:
On the opening break, should an object ball have to hit the rail?

Our rules say no, the BCA says yes. What is your experience with this?

Ours:
On the break, the cue ball may contact either a cushion or any ball in the rack first, but in either case, after contacting at least one ball, an object ball must be pocketed, or the cue ball or at least one object ball must contact a rail, otherwise it is a one foul penalty.


Theirs:
Starting player must (1) legally pocket an object ball into his targeted pocket, or (2) cause the cue ball to contact an object ball and after contact, at least one object ball must contact a cushion. Failure to do so is a foul. Note: The cue ball does not have to strike a rail on the opening break.
What I see in the BCA is a buntch of none players that dont no about pool making the rules. NONE QUALIFIED SQUARES. You need player making the RULES like Buddy Hall NIck Varner Grady Hapkins Freddy Billy Jimmy Fosco Gab Owens Johnny Archer Imminon Thusrdent Homand Cory Duel. And let them get together and make the rules. Not some squares who dont no anything. Take 11 judges and let them vote on the rules. And then you will have some good working rules. Not just some tournament rules to speed up the game and take the talent out of the game to help the weeker players. Thier are a lot of bad rules that need to be changed. And the players need to have a vote and say in what rules to make. The BCA people who make the rules need to learn from the players what is a good rule and what isnt. THe laws in this country has hurt the economy. And we have to meny people locked up in prison that the tax payers arte playing for. And the none violent people should be let out. WE arte number one for having the most people locked up. And the old laws from Abarham LIncons days need to change because the are out dated and the do not work in todays generation. BUt the want to kee[p all the laws so the can use them whenever the want to lock somebody up. And the lawers love it because the are making big money representing the people. And a lot of lawers are worse then the crimminals. And the need to be locked up.
 

Artie Bodendorfer

Verified Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2005
Messages
4,271
NH Steve said:
On the opening break, should an object ball have to hit the rail?

Our rules say no, the BCA says yes. What is your experience with this?

Ours:
On the break, the cue ball may contact either a cushion or any ball in the rack first, but in either case, after contacting at least one ball, an object ball must be pocketed, or the cue ball or at least one object ball must contact a rail, otherwise it is a one foul penalty.


Theirs:
Starting player must (1) legally pocket an object ball into his targeted pocket, or (2) cause the cue ball to contact an object ball and after contact, at least one object ball must contact a cushion. Failure to do so is a foul. Note: The cue ball does not have to strike a rail on the opening break.
What I see in the BCA is a buntch of none players that dont no about pool making the rules. NONE QUALIFIED SQUARES. You need player making the RULES like Buddy Hall NIck Varner Grady Hapkins Freddy Billy Jimmy Fosco Gab Owens Johnny Archer Imminon Thusrdent Homand Cory Duel. And let them get together and make the rules. Not some squares who dont no anything. Take 11 judges and let them vote on the rules. And then you will have some good working rules. Not just some tournament rules to speed up the game and take the talent out of the game to help the weeker players. Thier are a lot of bad rules that need to be changed. And the players need to have a vote and say in what rules to make. The BCA people who make the rules need to learn from the players what is a good rule and what isnt. THe laws in this country has hurt the economy. And we have to meny people locked up in prison that the tax payers arte playing for. And the none violent people should be let out. WE arte number one for having the most people locked up. And the old laws from Abarham LIncons days need to change because the are out dated and the do not work in todays generation. BUt the want to kee[p all the laws so the can use them whenever the want to lock somebody up. And the lawers love it because the are making big money representing the people. And a lot of lawers are worse then the crimminals. And the need to be locked up.
 

newfosgatesucks

Verified Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2006
Messages
858
Bca

Bca

I agree the BCA is a joke. And so is their League. I mean, even I can annihilate their highest handicapper allowed, and I am not THAT strong...when I'm MAKING a game, anyway....hehe...
 

NH Steve

Administrator
Joined
Apr 25, 2004
Messages
8,984
The original print version of One Pocket rules as far as I know, came up in 1961 for the Jansco Brother's first Johnston City tournament. These rules appeared in the National Billiard News. I am pretty certain one of the oldtimers even mentioned that Hayden Lingo had a hand in the rules. They appeared next in Fat's rule book -- also clearly stating that an object ball did not have to hit a rail as long as the cue ball did (the same either/or rule that applies on any safety, actually).

The BCA had ignored both One Pocket & 9-Ball for years, and it wasn't until after the media success of Johnston City that they were forced to add rules for both those games later in the 60's. No surprise that they wouldn't get it right; it is not one of their games.
 

fred bentivegna

Verified Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Messages
6,690
BCA rules committee

BCA rules committee

In the 70s I used to attend the BCA meetings that were held in Chicago. It was one big mess. Nobody with a vote or any influence could run two balls. The people with the most influence in the decision making were determined by who had the biggest factory. Roy Gandy's word became law when Brunswick turned their back on the BCA. Nick Paige, who owned Marie's Golden Cue was head of the Rules Committee responsible for writing the rules that appeared in the annual BCA Rules Handbook. Nick, was a proprietor but he didnt know a pool ball from a testicle. I probably saved the BCA bar leagues from early extinction when I stopped them from implementing the most ridiculous 8 handicap ball rules imaginable. The president of the BCA was originally an executive in the National Sporting Goods Assn. with zero experience in pool. He had been deported from the NSGA and it was obvious how much he hated his new position. They were going to run a big national handicapped 8 ball tourn. and the handicap was going to be that the weaker the player, the least amount of balls he would have to make after the break. In other words, a super weak player would only have to make 3,4, or 5 balls, and then the 8 after the break. The balls would come off in rotation after the break, the player couldnt pick them. They didnt realize that that was an advantage to the better player! When the better player breaks and makes a ball, taking opponent balls off leaves him with a clearer table to work with and much easier to run out. I woke them up to the stupidity of their plan and provided a sensible alternative, they finally relented and stopped that procedure. I got so disgusted with the politics that I quit attending. I missed out because the APA was formed soon after and Terry Bell and Larry Hubbart got rich with it. I could have and should have, been in on the ground floor.

the Beard
 

NH Steve

Administrator
Joined
Apr 25, 2004
Messages
8,984
fred bentivegna said:
In the 70s I used to attend the BCA meetings that were held in Chicago. It was one big mess. Nobody with a vote or any influence could run two balls. The people with the most influence in the decision making were determined by who had the biggest factory. Roy Gandy's word became law when Brunswick turned their back on the BCA. Nick Paige, who owned Marie's Golden Cue was head of the Rules Committee responsible for writing the rules that appeared in the annual BCA Rules Handbook. Nick, was a proprietor but he didnt know a pool ball from a testicle. I probably saved the BCA bar leagues from early extinction when I stopped them from implementing the most ridiculous 8 handicap ball rules imaginable. The president of the BCA was originally an executive in the National Sporting Goods Assn. with zero experience in pool. He had been deported from the NSGA and it was obvious how much he hated his new position. They were going to run a big national handicapped 8 ball tourn. and the handicap was going to be that the weaker the player, the least amount of balls he would have to make after the break. In other words, a super weak player would only have to make 3,4, or 5 balls, and then the 8 after the break. The balls would come off in rotation after the break, the player couldnt pick them. They didnt realize that that was an advantage to the better player! When the better player breaks and makes a ball, taking opponent balls off leaves him with a clearer table to work with and much easier to run out. I woke them up to the stupidity of their plan and provided a sensible alternative, they finally relented and stopped that procedure. I got so disgusted with the politics that I quit attending. I missed out because the APA was formed soon after and Terry Bell and Larry Hubbart got rich with it. I could have and should have, been in on the ground floor.

the Beard
There rules committee has improved since Bob Jewett got involved, but their One Pocket rules have not, imho. However, we have it covered pretty well :)
 

Deeman

Verified Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2004
Messages
1,333
Steve,

I can't remember how we play at Derby City in the tournament, do you?

I believe you don't have to drive an object ball to the rail but it has never come up in my matches there. Otherwise, I've always played by the old rules, not BCA.

DeeMan
 

SJDinPHX

Suspended
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
9,226
BCA = Still living in the Greenleaf era !

BCA = Still living in the Greenleaf era !

NH Steve said:
There rules committee has improved since Bob Jewett got involved, but their One Pocket rules have not, imho. However, we have it covered pretty well :)
Improvement, yes but very little. Bob's many contributions to cue sports are sadly lacking when it comes to One Pocket or 9/10 ball.
I Remember a thread a few months back where every knowledgeable poster on 1P.org, had to brow-beat him into submission (which we finally did) regarding his views on handicapping 1P.
Bob was adament that getting 16 to 13, was a better game, (for the weaker player) than getting than 8 to 6.
The BCA is still the Bumbling Congress of America, with regards to ANY contribution they've made to almost any discipline in pool.
Most noticably in the rules department. Mark Griffin or Jay Helfert could have solidified ALL the rules,for ALL games had they not grown weary (very soon)of the politics involved. JMHO
Kudos to Steve Booth for trying to establish a sensible set of rules by using player input.

Dick <-- knows Paul Newman did more for pool in 3 hours of movies, than the BCA has done in 75 years, or more.
 
Last edited:

androd

Verified Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2008
Messages
7,219
NH Steve said:
On the opening break, should an object ball have to hit the rail?

Our rules say no, the BCA says yes. What is your experience with this?

Ours:
On the break, the cue ball may contact either a cushion or any ball in the rack first, but in either case, after contacting at least one ball, an object ball must be pocketed, or the cue ball or at least one object ball must contact a rail, otherwise it is a one foul penalty.


Theirs:
Starting player must (1) legally pocket an object ball into his targeted pocket, or (2) cause the cue ball to contact an object ball and after contact, at least one object ball must contact a cushion. Failure to do so is a foul. Note: The cue ball does not have to strike a rail on the opening break.
When I started playing there were no rules, so we played like 14.1 the CB and an OB, with a player that kicked at the rack or used the old Okla.break where you roll into the head ball and stick there, we would say if not the CB to a rail then 2 OB's. I've never seen it come up since no one breaks like that anymore.
 

SJDinPHX

Suspended
Joined
Dec 7, 2007
Messages
9,226
androd said:
When I started playing there were no rules, so we played like 14.1 the CB and an OB, with a player that kicked at the rack or used the old Okla.break where you roll into the head ball and stick there, we would say if not the CB to a rail then 2 OB's. I've never seen it come up since no one breaks like that anymore.
I agree Rodney. Straight pool is the only game that defines a break as anything other than whatever is required as a legal shot during the rest of the game. Why is that? Did the BCA screw up again?

Dick
 

SactownTom

Moderator
Joined
May 31, 2004
Messages
813
OnePocket.org rules are the BEST. Rules by players for the players.
OH, and by the way, the World Standard Rules do not cover One Pocket.

BCA rant;

The BCA doesn't dabble in rules and hasn't since 1998 when the World Standard Rules were adopted by the BCA (that's when the BCA Rules committee disbanded.

The BCA was formed in 1946 or 1947 to run qualifiers for the 14.1 world championships. Basically they were promoters and tournament directors and somewhat of a depository of records. Sixty some years later, the BCA is nothing more than a Trade Show organization that is (by their own admission) not doing a good job.

Please do not confuse the BCA with Mark Griffin's BCAL (the league and its own set of rules for league 8 and 9 ball) Good set of rules and as far as I am concerned, the best written set available.
 

Cowboy Dennis

Suspended
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
11,123
Straight Pool Bre

Straight Pool Bre

SJDinPHX said:
I agree Rodney. Straight pool is the only game that defines a break as anything other than whatever is required as a legal shot during the rest of the game. Why is that? Did the BCA screw up again?

Dick
The reason, near as I can see, is that it would make a mockery of the game if a player could shoot the headball and leave the cuebal frozen there. The incoming player would always have a ball near the corner pocket and how do you play safe from there? That's why you need to send two balls and the cueball to a rail. It is similar in it's logic to the infield-fly rule in baseball. It prevents the larceny in us from coming out too early in the game. And I am referring to 14.1.
 

gulfportdoc

Verified Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2004
Messages
9,974
Deeman said:
Steve,

I can't remember how we play at Derby City in the tournament, do you?

I believe you don't have to drive an object ball to the rail but it has never come up in my matches there. Otherwise, I've always played by the old rules, not BCA.

DeeMan
Deeman, here is the legal break paragraph from the 1P rules posted on the DCC website:

"Legal Break: A legal break requires you to pocket a ball or drive at least one object ball or the cue ball to a cushion after contact. Failure to do so is a foul."

Incidentally, I believe they're counting balls to be in the Kitchen by the face of the ball, not the base of the ball. Just thought I'd toss that one in...;)

Doc
 

skunkboy

New Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
17
Opps, I just got confused

Opps, I just got confused

gulfportdoc said:
Deeman, here is the legal break paragraph from the 1P rules posted on the DCC website:

"Legal Break: A legal break requires you to pocket a ball or drive at least one object ball or the cue ball to a cushion after contact. Failure to do so is a foul."

Incidentally, I believe they're counting balls to be in the Kitchen by the face of the ball, not the base of the ball. Just thought I'd toss that one in...;)

Doc
Doc, you threw me for a loop there with your last statment about the 'balls in the kitchen'. Where does it say that the balls are measured from the 'face' rather than the 'base'? If this is true, that's fine, but I need to see it in print to proove it to others...this is how arguments get started (you know, "I've always played it like this").

Not trying to start an arguement, just trying to get everything straight.

L8R...Ken
 

gulfportdoc

Verified Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2004
Messages
9,974
skunkboy said:
Doc, you threw me for a loop there with your last statment about the 'balls in the kitchen'. Where does it say that the balls are measured from the 'face' rather than the 'base'?
I screwed up, Ken. I left out the phrase, "at the DCC this year". I read somewhere that it will be the rule at the one-pocket tournament this year at Caesar's. Now I'll have to look for it...:rolleyes:

Doc
 

gulfportdoc

Verified Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2004
Messages
9,974
Found it...

Found it...

This is from the Derby City Classic rules from their website:

"Ball in the Kitchen: The “base of the ball” rule does not apply. To be playable, object balls must be completely out of the kitchen. The edge of the ball may not touch or overlap the head string even if the base of the ball is completely outside the kitchen. The decision of the referee is final."

I like to play "base of the ball", but there is the rule for the DCC.

Doc
 

philwelch

Verified Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2006
Messages
323
gulfportdoc said:
This is from the Derby City Classic rules from their website:

"Ball in the Kitchen: The “base of the ball” rule does not apply. To be playable, object balls must be completely out of the kitchen. The edge of the ball may not touch or overlap the head string even if the base of the ball is completely outside the kitchen. The decision of the referee is final."

I like to play "base of the ball", but there is the rule for the DCC.

Doc
Doc I also saw that they are going to lag for the break. The winner of the lag decides if he wants to break or hand it over to his opponent. Hmm, I won the lag do I want to break? That's crazy! Who wouldn't want the first break? If you break first that means if the set goes to the hill you get to break. Somethings should go without saying. Maybe this post too!
 

skunkboy

New Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
17
Thanks Doc

Thanks Doc

Thanks for clearing that up Doc. So I guess if any part of the ball is 'over the line', the ball would be considered 'in the kitchen'. How about the cue ball? Can you gain 2 15/64ths inches by this rule?lol

Sorry, I guess I got carried away. I'm a surveyor so lines and measures are my business.

Thanks again...Ken
 
Top