Filler/ Chohan May 12-13th

[Tom Wirth]

Jim, My position on tight vs loose pockets is this; the looser the pockets the more even the offense becomes but the defense favors the better mover. Tony failed to employ his moving experience in his match with Mr. Filler. Had he squeezed, as in Chicago style, which he prefers not to do but can if he were to put his mind to it, the outcome could have been quite different. It is important to have a well rounded game. Tony has only one gear. Full throttle. Understanding your opponent's strengths and weaknesses is as important as understanding your own. Mr. Filler's strengths are obvious, Did Tony attempt to examine his weaknesses? If he did, I sure didn't see it. Offense is KING but defense gets you to where you can use that offense. It is the game within the game. Though running balls on loose pockets is easier, it is also easier to sell out on these loose tables. These loose tables require far better moving skills. Tony ignored this.

In the old days we all played on that slow, fuzzy, directional cloth. You had to have a pretty strong stroke to get by on that stuff. Then came the tightly woven non-directional cloth like Simonis. What did that do to the game.? It was an equalizer. Everybody could now draw their ball but the guy with the greater experience and knowledge found that playing smart usually out preformed the guys who just shot straight. The same thing goes for loose pockets vs tight pockets. The tighter the pocket the more it favors the better player because it is all relative. What's tight for the straight shooter is even tighter for the guy who's pocketing skills are not up to the same standards. You are welcome to disagree but I see this as plain and simple logic. The games may last longer but the outcome becomes more assured.

Tom

All that being said, Mr. Filler's offense is far superior to Tony's offense. What a talent! Tony's only chance to win this match was with superior moves.

 

[wincardona]

Jim, My position on tight vs loose pockets is this; the looser the pockets the more even the offense becomes but the defense favors the better mover. Tony failed to employ his moving experience in his match with Mr. Filler. Had he squeezed, as in Chicago style, which he prefers not to do but can if he were to put his mind to it, the outcome could have been quite different. It is important to have a well rounded game. Tony has only one gear. Full throttle. Understanding your opponent's strengths and weaknesses is as important as understanding your own. Mr. Filler's strengths are obvious, Did Tony attempt to examine his weaknesses? If he did, I sure didn't see it. Offense is KING but defense gets you to where you can use that offense. It is the game within the game. Though running balls on loose pockets is easier, it is also easier to sell out on these loose tables. These loose tables require far better moving skills. Tony ignored this.

In the old days we all played on that slow, fuzzy, directional cloth. You had to have a pretty strong stroke to get by on that stuff. Then came the tightly woven non-directional cloth like Simonis. What did that do to the game.? It was an equalizer. Everybody could now draw their ball but the guy with the greater experience and knowledge found that playing smart usually out preformed the guys who just shot straight. The same thing goes for loose pockets vs tight pockets. The tighter the pocket the more it favors the better player because it is all relative. What's tight for the straight shooter is even tighter for the guy who's pocketing skills are not up to the same standards. You are welcome to disagree but I see this as plain and simple logic. The games may last longer but the outcome becomes more assured. If you remember what Buddy Hall once said; "The center of the pocket is NOT tight." these straight shooters will be splitting the center while while the rest of us may need the entire hole.

Tom

Tom, I agree with you that tighter pockets favor the better ball striker, even if he's the weaker mover providing the game is handicapped evenly. It's when these handicaps with giving up weight are involved that pocket-size differs based on the size of the pocket (too tight..or too lose) that things become clouded. A pocket can become too tight for the better ball striker giving up the weight to where he can't win, however, put the same two players on a loser pocket that is large enough for the better player to perform but too tight for the weaker player than things change. But when the players are even players and there's no weight involved playing on tight pockets the better ball striker has the edge. IMO.

Dr. Bill

 

[beatle]

kjh

 

[Island Drive]

Tony knows only one way to play and that's offensive. Filler is a beast and a force to be reckoned with in future years, make no mistake about it. I watched the last two hours of day one and concluded that Tony was in trouble because he didn't have the firepower Filler has and IMO, that's how the games were going to be played. Filler also showed no respect for Tony not in a bad way, in a way that led me to believe that he was solely focused on what he wanted to do and that was to play super aggressively. Filler has a high pool IQ and his ball-striking ability is second to none, his cue ball control is excellent and his speed of the cue ball is outstanding. He holds over Tony in every aspect of the game technically other than the experience level which apparently is not enough to make up the ground Tony loses technically. I feel that Filler in the future will be the number one player in the world playing one pocket, simply because he is as fearless a player that possesses all the tools and ability to beat anyone with pure fire power and pressure.

Dr. Bill

Could you compare this match in any way, with you playing Ronnie Allen in his prime?

 

[wincardona]

tight pockets favor the better shooter playing even, and thats fine and makes sense.

it is when someone is getting balls spotted, that tight pockets can favor the weaker shooter.. two different games.

You echoed me kinda.

Dr. Bill

 

[BRLongArm]

Let's just face it. Tony is too lazy to grind. He could have exposed Filler's impatience and lack of experience, but he just could not embrace the grind. When he played Dennis, he slowed him down and put the balls out of play and used his superior knowledge to steal game after game. So we know he has that in his bag. But this match, he was determined to match fire with fire and Filler's fire is just too good, too pure and too consistent.

 

[Tom Wirth]

Yes Bill but when handicapping a game shouldn't the pocket size also be calculated into the mix?
If I were the better shooter and he the better mover I would choose a table where I could exploit
my shooting advantage and limit the damage he may do when he scores having success with his moving
skills.
Successful moves on loose tables can have devastating results but on tight equipment I am more likely
to be in the hunt for the win because he is less likely to run a high number of balls.

Tom

 

[NH Steve]

Some stats on the match are now available here: https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=512091

That was a quick turnaround, and thank you!!

 

[NH Steve]

What I saw was that Tony generally shot really well -- a couple of short bad stretches notwithstanding. Joshua shot a bit better with less than a handful of misses the whole two days. But on the offensive end, I think Tony did close to what you would hope from him. But in terms of holding Joshua back with Tony's superior One Pocket experience, I did not see that. As often as not, Filler was able to get to a shot before Tony. Beforehand I would definitely have figured Tony would have the edge there, but it did not really materialize this match. That is reflected in the unusually fast pace of the games too. Boom-boom-boom, if you went to have a snack or beverage or bathroom break you could miss an entire game just like that!

People talk about "buckets" but that was a normal Diamond pro table, just like those used for about every major tournament. That's not really a bucket in my mind lol. Granted, Joshua has been on it probably 10 hours a day for the last month lol, so that is partly why his banks were raining and his speed was generally impeccable!

Very entertaining, that is for sure!!

 

[NH Steve]

Here are a couple examples of Filler's moving...

 

[NH Steve]

.... and another one

 

[Tobermory]

"Did Tony attempt to examine his weaknesses? If he did, I sure didn't see it."

Your question nails it. Tony was supposed to be the professor giving a lesson and then giving the grasshopper a test. Tony tried to go toe to toe offensively and came up short. Tony misunderestimated (as GW used to say) Filler's firepower, overestimated his own, and failed to utilize his biggest advantage -- experience and knowledge and choice-making. I hope this experience motivates him to examine his own weaknesses and come out of this prepared for Round 2 with Filler.

 

[brexit]

As a good (average) nine-ball player who has taken 4 years to become an average 1P player I am truly shocked by how quickly Josh Filler has learned the game. At the age of 22.

Clearly, conditions favored Josh greatly for this match (table familiarity, pocket size, confidence, being in dead punch for WEEKS leading up to the match) but he showed so much these last two days that blew my mind.

He was a long way from perfect but his kicking, moving, banking, and stack-reading was better than I realized. And I already rated those skills highly based on watching Roy’s feed every night.

I had convinced myself that he couldn’t convert what he learned in his 13-7 game with the local guy into success against a top pro because it felt like he was always free-wheeling.

Boy was I wrong.

Tony could have (and should have) done more to slow the youngster down which makes me think this might be a ploy to lure the young German into some big action in the future with the Pinoys and Tony under different conditions but, as a lover of the game who wins regardless, I’m all for it

 

[Erik]

I also feel tight pockets would not have helped Tony. I believe the match he played at buffalos with Alex a year or two back was tighter pockets and I don’t think that favored him.

I heard a bit of the interview with Tony after the match and I think he brought up one good point about tight pockets - it would have neutralized Josh's banking some. He credited just how good a banker Josh is and mentioned how often he was worried to leave him a bank. He seemed to suggest he wouldn’t have felt the need to defend against the banks as much on a tighter table.

Tony said he thought the only American player who could beat Filler was maybe Justin Hall. But I’d actually like to see him play SVB, since SVB has the same ball pocketing skills plus a bit more one pocket knowledge. Seems like SVB always gets left out of the conversation.

 

[brexit]

Question for the experts among us: have you ever seen a more meteoric rise in 1P in before?

Who else went from 0-100mph as quickly as Filler?

As a good (average) nine-ball player who has taken 4 years to become an average 1P player I am truly shocked by how quickly Josh Filler has learned the game. At the age of 22.

Clearly, conditions favored Josh greatly for this match (table familiarity, pocket size, confidence, being in dead punch for WEEKS leading up to the match) but he showed so much these last two days that blew my mind.

He was a long way from perfect but his kicking, moving, banking, and stack-reading was better than I realized. And I already rated those skills highly based on watching Roy’s feed every night.

I had convinced myself that he couldn’t convert what he learned in his 13-7 game with the local guy into success against a top pro because it felt like he was always free-wheeling.

Boy was I wrong.

Tony could have (and should have) done more to slow the youngster down which makes me think this might be a ploy to lure the young German into some big action in the future with the Pinoys and Tony under different conditions but, as a lover of the game who wins regardless, I’m all for it

 

[BRLongArm]

There was nothing wrong with Tony's offense, except that it was too risky. It's one thing when you keep the foot on the pedal against guys that don't run out as well as you do. It's quite another to shoot risky shot after risky shot knowing if you miss, you are likely to leave a bank or a cut to a guy that doesn't miss. And not just that he doesn't miss, it is likely that you are giving up the game on that risky shot if you miss. We've all been there. When we are playing a great shooter, slow him down. And don't tell the one pocket world that you couldn't slow him down. You just can't slow him down when you are shooting offense every single shot. Very disappointing. But at least we have a great young player to watch.

 

[vapros]

Filler was free-wheeling, for sure. I saw a one-legged stance I had never seen before and two or three audacious exhibition-type tricks when drawing Jojo. Tony got no respect from him - guess he really didn't earn much, did he?

 

[beatle]

hgff

 

[darmoose]

There was nothing wrong with Tony's offense, except that it was too risky. It's one thing when you keep the foot on the pedal against guys that don't run out as well as you do. It's quite another to shoot risky shot after risky shot knowing if you miss, you are likely to leave a bank or a cut to a guy that doesn't miss. And not just that he doesn't miss, it is likely that you are giving up the game on that risky shot if you miss. We've all been there. When we are playing a great shooter, slow him down. And don't tell the one pocket world that you couldn't slow him down. You just can't slow him down when you are shooting offense every single shot. Very disappointing. But at least we have a great young player to watch.

Not that I can add to anything that's been said, I agree with this opinion completely. Filler, I think learned a lot from this match, it appeared to me, and he isa quick learner. Tony came close, but he will never beat Filleron firepower alone. If he continuesto be too lazy to grind, I don't think he can get there.

If anyone is gonna beat thei kid they are gonna have to slow him down, grind on him a bit, move balls up table so he can't run out so easily, and then beat him to the shot more than he beats them to the shot. It's also gonna take a top shooter to do it. Mybe Dennis or Alex can do it, but they better be ready to grind on him. It would be hard to bet against Filler cause the opponent will have to make a committment to patience and defense and moving until he gets the advantage.

To close, I think Tony could have gotten there, but I agree he was too lazy.

JMHO

 

[Island Drive]

Not that I can add to anything that's been said, I agree with this opinion completely. Filler, I think learned a lot from this match, it appeared to me, and he isa quick learner. Tony came close, but he will never beat Filleron firepower alone. If he continuesto be too lazy to grind, I don't think he can get there.

If anyone is gonna beat thei kid they are gonna have to slow him down, grind on him a bit, move balls up table so he can't run out so easily, and then beat him to the shot more than he beats them to the shot. It's also gonna take a top shooter to do it. Mybe Dennis or Alex can do it, but they better be ready to grind on him. It would be hard to bet against Filler cause the opponent will have to make a committment to patience and defense and moving until he gets the advantage.

To close, I think Tony could have gotten there, but I agree he was too lazy.

JMHO

Yah never know what true Gamblers are ''really'' doing from the outside when looking in.