Ghost vs. Barry 8 wwyd?

wincardona

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In reference to the difficulty in freezing the cue ball to the 11ball or moving it close to the 11ball is a very tricky shot IMO. That's why I suggested to those that are uncomfortable with the execution of the shot to shoot it with a stop stroke using a center ball and pop it. It's much easier to stun the cue ball a few inches than it is to move it exactly four or five inches to a specific area. This option IMO should be struck with a force follow playing it short of the 11ball.

If you read Tom Wirths post #44 this is what he had to say about freezing to the 11ball."
"Im not as big a fan as those of you who wish to roll up on the eleven, even while compromising the speed. Two reasons; Ghost may be right and the five may lay along the foot rail giving the opponent a way out. And why try to be cute here with the cue ball. As we all know, that backfires sometimes."

He also suggested playing the shot with a draw stroke back to the side rail which is fine. I myself rather force it a few inches toward the 11ball but not risking losing my cue ball at the same time. The objective is controlling the cue ball to protect the 7ball while moving balls toward your side hopefully to the bottom rail.

This position strongly favors the shooter, however, IMO, you shouldn't be passive here allowing your opponent to wiggle his way out of it to create an up-table game which is very possible. There are makeable balls on his side and no balls on or near the foot rail which will limit the shooter's options in future innings to trap his opponent. With this understanding you the shooter have an opportunity to strengthen the position by moving multiple balls toward your side in hopes that one stops near the foot rail close to the pocket..bingo. Even if a ball doesn't find a way to the foot rail you have just moved the 5 and 9ball opening-up options for you in the trapping game when you get back to the table.

Dr. Bill
 

lll

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https://photos.app.goo.gl/GU5gHhaK4g5Pgq6q6 click on video to get sound.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Xbkeb4rfKoBRSB2r8 I am excited for I came so close to pulling this shot off. I am learning and this is what these wwyd's do for me.
If the 5 was or in fact is set up to contact the 9 just a little less, I then would of contacted a rail. But as is the 5 is protected. As you can see it does take a specialized stroke & method!

sorackem and others that cannot take this to the table, this is for you! Whitey
whitey
thanks for the videos
it seems to me even if you dont get a rail its a strong shot
jmho
 

El Chapo

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Are you kidding me, I needed a laugh! The Ghost, and Tom are saying to stay away from this shot, and Dr. Bill saying if you can not control the cb to lay up on the 11 then just draw it on a line behind the 11, so he's recognizing the talent required to pull this off. This is high end stuff!!!!!
Just how are you going to stroke the cb to get enough speed on the object balls to catch a rail and still gently roll up on the 11 to also protect from a return shot off the 5. I'd like to see it!
Unless you are taking an intentional, which is ridiculous.
That 5 has to be a 98% full hit, which means it is going into the 9 pretty fully, so where is the speed coming from to catch a rail, plus cb has to gently nestle up against the 11.
This shot is not kiddy land, this takes a lot of knowledge to pull off. This is one of the most challenging shots to come up in any of these wwyds.

I guess I need to stop playing pool. I am still laughing! Whitey
I look at that shot and don't see it as a for sure foul, it depends on how thick that ball hits the first ball. Anyway, as I said, I would not even think about it, I would think 100% about freezing him to the ball, and it looks to me like i may very well get a rail but if i dont i certainly dont feel like i would be the one in trouble. Ball up ball down ball blocking.
 

El Chapo

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In reference to the difficulty in freezing the cue ball to the 11ball or moving it close to the 11ball is a very tricky shot IMO. That's why I suggested to those that are uncomfortable with the execution of the shot to shoot it with a stop stroke using a center ball and pop it. It's much easier to stun the cue ball a few inches than it is to move it exactly four or five inches to a specific area. This option IMO should be struck with a force follow playing it short of the 11ball.

If you read Tom Wirths post #44 this is what he had to say about freezing to the 11ball."
"Im not as big a fan as those of you who wish to roll up on the eleven, even while compromising the speed. Two reasons; Ghost may be right and the five may lay along the foot rail giving the opponent a way out. And why try to be cute here with the cue ball. As we all know, that backfires sometimes."

He also suggested playing the shot with a draw stroke back to the side rail which is fine. I myself rather force it a few inches toward the 11ball but not risking losing my cue ball at the same time. The objective is controlling the cue ball to protect the 7ball while moving balls toward your side hopefully to the bottom rail.

This position strongly favors the shooter, however, IMO, you shouldn't be passive here allowing your opponent to wiggle his way out of it to create an up-table game which is very possible. There are makeable balls on his side and no balls on or near the foot rail which will limit the shooter's options in future innings to trap his opponent. With this understanding you the shooter have an opportunity to strengthen the position by moving multiple balls toward your side in hopes that one stops near the foot rail close to the pocket..bingo. Even if a ball doesn't find a way to the foot rail you have just moved the 5 and 9ball opening-up options for you in the trapping game when you get back to the table.

Dr. Bill
Do you mean it is tricky not to foul on that roll up shot Bill?
 

El Chapo

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I agree with you Whitey. But it's obvious from all of his repetitive posts saying shoot, shoot, shoot, knowledge counts for very little, that this Chapo doesn't understand one pocket. He thinks and talks like a young 9ball player. And while we're on the subject: I have to constantly laugh at similar posts in these wwyd's. Guys are constantly posting up these shot choices as if they're going to easily accomplish them when in reality they have about a 10%-20% of accomplishing them.

And the other thing that makes me shake my head when reading these wwyd's: Usually the best choice gets posted up in the first few replies. Then guys keep picking different shots. I don't think they would really pick these different shots, their goal is just to pick something different then the earlier guy, even when they really know that the earlier poster already pointed out the best choice.

Old School
Well, I would argue most players in here don't understand one pocket, as they constantly seem to state great players didn't play the score or other reasons they have that are just pure fantasy.

Like I said, these guys don't shoot these shots because they are stupid and one month one pocket players can outsmart them. They shoot many of these shots because they have intuitively figured out it is the only way to win.

What is your analysis as to how a one month one pocket player could outsmart cliff here?

Constantly obsessing on pushing balls uptable is a good tactic if you wanna have a strong record against drunk league players though.
 

sorackem

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As you can see it does take a specialized stroke & method!
Nice go at it. There's no substitute for being able to eyeball it at the table.
As always, Whitey, thank you for taking the time to get those shots all setup so carefully and packaging the videos for upload.
 

OldSchool

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Well, I would argue most players on here don't understand one pocket
Hey fellow onepocket.org members, the drug lord "El Chapo" (who, I'm pretty sure is a 9ball player and doesn't actually play one pocket) says that most of you don't understand one pocket. lol.
 

El Chapo

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Hey fellow onepocket.org members, the drug lord "El Chapo" (who, I'm pretty sure is a 9ball player and doesn't actually play one pocket) says that most of you don't understand one pocket. lol.
Well, you should be fair and listen to the reasons why I am saying that, and decide objectively if I have a point or not.

Look, if you watch a pro baseball game for example, these guys are not making very many mental errors. When do we see a guy throw to third when he should have thrown to first? It happens, but mental errors are rare at top levels. That is why these guys get paid, they do not make many stupid mental errors.

What I see being said in these parts very regularly is quite the contrary to that logic. You guys say these pro one pocket players are constantly making mental errors and not playing the score. But the truth is, Cliff was completely aware of all of his defensive opportunities in our other thread, but like the baseball players, he chose the shot he thought was best and its most likely he is going to be correct, using his experience skill level as our "evidence".

These guys don't just haul off and shoot because of their ego, or because they are stupid!

So, if you can get yourself that far, you ask why are we so off. It is because they are in fact shooting the right shot to win as much as possible in the long run.

Think about what you are saying! Cliff is just a dum shit, he does not know how to beat a player like frost because he can't play the score. Well, to the contrary, he knows exactly how to beat guys like this, you don't and so when you think you know what he should have shot, you are probably wrong. It is probably not him that is wrong.

There was just another thread, with Tony in it, can't remember the title... but you notice in the thread i called the exact shot he chose (which i never seem to get much credit for but i dont care just addressing your "he cant play one hole" theory). That does not prove anything, sure. But it still does bolster my point, which is maybe yall should be asking yourselves why he shot in that spot, and won the game in that inning, instead of saying he shot a dumb shot and did not play the score.

I have said this on the board before, but the last time i played one hole i had just played morro even until he quit, and i went into santa monica billiards a few weeks layer and could not get a ball from one pocket rich. Now, that makes me sound good cuz i think richard could have given me a ball, maybe more... but whatever, if you dont think i play good enough that is fine but that aint the right answer either is all i am saying. The right answer is more like your analisis is off the mark.
 
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beatle

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most players are not great shooters, and many of those shots are so far out of their comfort zone so as to render them not possible to consider.
the value of being ahead in the game diminishes greatly as your opponents ability increases.
 

unoperro

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the value of being ahead in the game diminishes greatly as your opponents ability increases.
This maybe the truest statement ever posted.
Beatle I used to think you were a crusty old bug , now I believe you have been there done that , and wore out the shirt years ago.
 

crabbcatjohn

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So, you push up onto the 11, loose a ball and now the guy who isn't a beginner taps the cue ball. WWYD from there? The ghost, me and Nick chose the right shot imo...
 

OldSchool

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I have said this on the board before, but the last time i played one hole i had just played morro even until he quit, and i went into santa monica billiards a few weeks layer and could not get a ball from one pocket rich.
I highly doubt that all that ever happened.
 

Ratamon

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Well, you should be fair and listen to the reasons why I am saying that, and decide objectively if I have a point or not.

Look, if you watch a pro baseball game for example, these guys are not making very many mental errors. When do we see a guy throw to third when he should have thrown to first? It happens, but mental errors are rare at top levels. That is why these guys get paid, they do not make many stupid mental errors.

What I see being said in these parts very regularly is quite the contrary to that logic. You guys say these pro one pocket players are constantly making mental errors and not playing the score. But the truth is, Cliff was completely aware of all of his defensive opportunities in our other thread, but like the baseball players, he chose the shot he thought was best and its most likely he is going to be correct, using his experience skill level as our "evidence".

These guys don't just haul off and shoot because of their ego, or because they are stupid!

So, if you can get yourself that far, you ask why are we so off. It is because they are in fact shooting the right shot to win as much as possible in the long run.

Think about what you are saying! Cliff is just a dum shit, he does not know how to beat a player like frost because he can't play the score. Well, to the contrary, he knows exactly how to beat guys like this, you don't and so when you think you know what he should have shot, you are probably wrong. It is probably not him that is wrong.

There was just another thread, with Tony in it, can't remember the title... but you notice in the thread i called the exact shot he chose (which i never seem to get much credit for but i dont care just addressing your "he cant play one hole" theory). That does not prove anything, sure. But it still does bolster my point, which is maybe yall should be asking yourselves why he shot in that spot, and won the game in that inning, instead of saying he shot a dumb shot and did not play the score.

I have said this on the board before, but the last time i played one hole i had just played morro even until he quit, and i went into santa monica billiards a few weeks layer and could not get a ball from one pocket rich. Now, that makes me sound good cuz i think richard could have given me a ball, maybe more... but whatever, if you dont think i play good enough that is fine but that aint the right answer either is all i am saying. The right answer is more like your analisis is off the mark.
We've all seen many a top player starting to play too timid when they get well ahead in the game but then go on to lose that game in the end. I've just finished watching the 2008 Derby City One Pocket Finals between Gabe Owen and Larry Nevel and that's exactly what happened in game 2 when Gabe got ahead 7-0.

I think the player ahead has got to maintain a healthy balance between being timid and aggressive as the game progresses. When an opponent is so far behind in a game they, on occasion, start firing in those tough banks and 2-3 railers like they were hangers and the player ahead gets even more timid as the player behind starts chipping away at his lead.

There is also a great tape from the 1991 Legends of One Pocket called "100 minute rack" between Nick Varner and Allen Hopkins where Allen gets 7-0 ahead early in the game and Nick battles his way back in that game to tie the score at 6-6. It's a shame Accu-Stats no longer carry it but I had it converted from VHS to DVD a while ago and am happy to share it if anyone wants it.

For the record, I'm not saying that Cliff played the right shot mainly because I think he did not.
 
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lll

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We've all seen many a top player starting to play too timid when they get well ahead in the game but then go on to lose that game in the end. I've just finished watching the 2008 Derby City One Pocket Finals between Gabe Owen and Larry Nevel and that's exactly what happened in game 2 when Gabe got ahead 7-0.

I think the player ahead has got to maintain a healthy balance between being timid and aggressive as the game progresses. When an opponent is so far behind in a game they, on occasion, start firing in those tough banks and 2-3 railers like they were hangers and the player ahead gets even more timid as the player behind starts chipping away at his lead.

There is also a great tape from the 1991 Legends of One Pocket called "100 minute rack" between Nick Varner and Allen Hopkins where Allen gets 7-0 ahead early in the game and Nick battles his way back in that game to tie the score at 6-6. It's a shame Accu-Stats no longer carry it but I had it converted from VHS to DVD a while ago and am happy to share it if anyone wants it.

For the record, I'm not saying that Cliff played the right shot mainly because I think he did not.
check your pm
i would like the dvd
 

jtompilot

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Well, you should be fair and listen to the reasons why I am saying that, and decide objectively if I have a point or not.

Look, if you watch a pro baseball game for example, these guys are not making very many mental errors. When do we see a guy throw to third when he should have thrown to first? It happens, but mental errors are rare at top levels. That is why these guys get paid, they do not make many stupid mental errors.

What I see being said in these parts very regularly is quite the contrary to that logic. You guys say these pro one pocket players are constantly making mental errors and not playing the score. But the truth is, Cliff was completely aware of all of his defensive opportunities in our other thread, but like the baseball players, he chose the shot he thought was best and its most likely he is going to be correct, using his experience skill level as our "evidence".

These guys don't just haul off and shoot because of their ego, or because they are stupid!

So, if you can get yourself that far, you ask why are we so off. It is because they are in fact shooting the right shot to win as much as possible in the long run.

Think about what you are saying! Cliff is just a dum shit, he does not know how to beat a player like frost because he can't play the score. Well, to the contrary, he knows exactly how to beat guys like this, you don't and so when you think you know what he should have shot, you are probably wrong. It is probably not him that is wrong.

There was just another thread, with Tony in it, can't remember the title... but you notice in the thread i called the exact shot he chose (which i never seem to get much credit for but i dont care just addressing your "he cant play one hole" theory). That does not prove anything, sure. But it still does bolster my point, which is maybe yall should be asking yourselves why he shot in that spot, and won the game in that inning, instead of saying he shot a dumb shot and did not play the score.

I have said this on the board before, but the last time i played one hole i had just played morro even until he quit, and i went into santa monica billiards a few weeks layer and could not get a ball from one pocket rich. Now, that makes me sound good cuz i think richard could have given me a ball, maybe more... but whatever, if you dont think i play good enough that is fine but that aint the right answer either is all i am saying. The right answer is more like your analisis is off the mark.
I remember the first time I watched Cliff play 1P. It was at the USOpen in Kalamazoo around 25 years ago. It was very early in his game against Marco Markez(spelling?). Cliff had a very sharp back cut to his pocket and I thought, no way Cliff shoots that, all the balls will go to Marco’s side. Well, Cliff shot it and missed, moving lots of balls to Marco’s side. Then Marco missed a very simple cut shot and Cliff beat him like a drum.

Several years ago at Buffalo’s Cliff gave me 10-7. One game Cliff had me 7 to minus 2. I beat Cliff that game because he kept shooting ridiculous shots and kept letting back in the game. Sometimes these guys shoot like that because the think they can make everything. Same thing goes for SVB, Scott, Tony. I guess if shot as straight as them maybe I’d shoot at everything. Everyone sees something different and have different skill sets. Play it like you see it😎
 

One Pocket Ghost

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I remember the first time I watched Cliff play 1P. It was at the USOpen in Kalamazoo around 25 years ago. It was very early in his game against Marco Markez(spelling?). Cliff had a very sharp back cut to his pocket and I thought, no way Cliff shoots that, all the balls will go to Marco’s side. Well, Cliff shot it and missed, moving lots of balls to Marco’s side. Then Marco missed a very simple cut shot and Cliff beat him like a drum.

Several years ago at Buffalo’s Cliff gave me 10-7. One game Cliff had me 7 to minus 2. I beat Cliff that game because he kept shooting ridiculous shots and kept letting back in the game. Sometimes these guys shoot like that because the think they can make everything. Same thing goes for SVB, Scott, Tony. I guess if shot as straight as them maybe I’d shoot at everything. Everyone sees something different and have different skill sets. Play it like you see it😎
Yeah Jim, I was there too - I played in every one of the K-zoo U.S. Opens...

I loved Cliff's One Pocket game back then - he played fantastic in every aspect of the game - nobody better....around that same time, he came to Chicago and stayed for a month, hanging at Chris's, playing/in action every day...and the ongoing Cliff-action was...

All of us shortstops around at that time, a slew of guys that played around the speed of myself, you, John Henderson, Robert Newkirk, Dave/12squared, J.R. etc. all got 12-7 from Cliff....and the result was, about 1/2 the time one of us would win with that game, and 1/2 the time Cliff would win....and we all loved the game, and couldn't wait to play again, just shaking our heads when Cliff would run those 10's, 11's, and 12's on us o_O :)
 
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