Learning to play Bank pool question

hankh

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458
Howdy All;

Been playin for a while now, my Banking has always been sort of hap-hazard
at best. Have invested in the books and DVDs of The Beard and some other
Banking related educational materials from others. Each claims to be the better
of the batch. Each also ... well y'all know the routine.

I tend to be more of a visual learner but the books make for a solid form of
reinforcement and handier to tote around for me. That and a lot of practice.

So, I guess what I want to ask is what was the AHH-HA moment when y'all
realized it all came together and the puzzle pieces fell into place.

Thanks for your thoughts and surmises.

hank
 

crabbcatjohn

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Howdy All;

Been playin for a while now, my Banking has always been sort of hap-hazard
at best. Have invested in the books and DVDs of The Beard and some other
Banking related educational materials from others. Each claims to be the better
of the batch. Each also ... well y'all know the routine.

I tend to be more of a visual learner but the books make for a solid form of
reinforcement and handier to tote around for me. That and a lot of practice.

So, I guess what I want to ask is what was the AHH-HA moment when y'all
realized it all came together and the puzzle pieces fell into place.

Thanks for your thoughts and surmises.

hank
When i'm banking best, for me its when i'm focused on more precise hits on the object ball. I tend to get lazy just shooting at the angle or a spot. But when i really focus on hitting it more exact i make more shots. If you notice the top players all bank good and thats because they just hit everything with more precision. JMO John
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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If you are having trouble seeing the angle then first try aiming straight at the object ball, and this might pop the angle out for you, then aim at to contact the ob on that angle.
This worked for me when I was having trouble picking up the angle. But usually you just see the angle once the banks start clicking for you, if not try this little tip.
Hope this helps! Whitey
 
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hankh

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crabbcatjohn & Dennis "Whitey" Young, Howdy;

Thanks fellas for your responses. Whitey, you mentioned " you just see the
angle once the banks start clicking for you " this is basically what I'm asking is
what was it that made the connection for you that turned on the light over your
head (like in a cartoon), and things started 'clicking'?

Thanks for taking the time to reply fellas.

hank
 

wgcp

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I would have to say recognition of the different banks. The beard called them hangers. Once you see them it makes the game easier. You still have to execute them but recognition is the key.

To excel at the game you really have to have both the pocketing of the bank and the ability to control whitey at the same time. Brumback does exactly that.

If you get the chance to watch spaeth, bugs, or Busty play bank on dvd you will see what I mean. Have fun, banking is an art form of pool.

B
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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crabbcatjohn & Dennis "Whitey" Young, Howdy;

Thanks fellas for your responses. Whitey, you mentioned " you just see the
angle once the banks start clicking for you " this is basically what I'm asking is
what was it that made the connection for you that turned on the light over your
head (like in a cartoon), and things started 'clicking'?

Thanks for taking the time to reply fellas.

hank
Hank, for me I could always bank, from day one. Played banks everyday, I mean it was fun, especially on my table that did not reverse coming off the 2nd rail on cross side/corner banks, or double straight backs or double back banks, they were every bit as easy as a single rail bank cross side/corner, or single full table banks. Today in banks you do not see hardly any of these banks, for they are very difficult with todays cushions.

But I stop playing for decades, and when I started up again, I never really practiced banking, but joining OP I started hitting a few, and could not see them, so I used that trick of aiming directly at the ob and that seemed to make the angle pop out, and I started making some banks again.

But to answer your question, I feel I had a back ground in banks, this plus actually practicing some banks, and letting go of my thoughts and relying on my instincts, then I started seeing the banks again. I still go back to aiming first directly at the ob if I feel I am not picking up the angle, and sure enough I was off, and sometimes I double check by using the diamonds. But you will have to practice just banks, 1 hr. a day is enough to make a champion! Practice should bring about seeing the banks, but you will have to do it everyday, because it is not like when we were young and pick up stuff easily and retain it.

I think english on the cb can tremendously effect the shot also. Also the cue tip hardness has a lot of effect on banking! Know your banks, know the english, know your cue tip! There are so many different cushions out there, wow. Cushions today are highly sensitive to everything for they tend to reverse a lot, or they can throw a lot. They grab the ball more, create more spin, and add spin the more rails you play the bank, that is why the diamond system is different today than yesteryear. Speed of the shot effects the rebound tremendously on these cushions today.

The old GC's banked well, unless the cushions played soft. Whitey
 
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hankh

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wgcp, Howdy;

I would have to say recognition of the different banks. The beard called them hangers. Once you see them it makes the game easier. You still have to execute them but recognition is the key.

To excel at the game you really have to have both the pocketing of the bank and the ability to control whitey at the same time. Brumback does exactly that.

If you get the chance to watch spaeth, bugs, or Busty play bank on dvd you will see what I mean. Have fun, banking is an art form of pool.

B
Thanks for your thoughts, truly. I do realize that recognition is a big step in
the process and repetition (wash, rinse, repeat), go hand-in-hand to accomplishing
that part of the learning curve. Right now that curve is looking like a 60* angle.
Which is better then a 90* angle but I know it will flatten out more with practice.

Again, thanks for your thoughts and time to respond.

hank
 

hankh

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Whitey, Howdy;

Hank, for me I could always bank, from day one. Played banks everyday, I mean it was fun, especially on my table that did not reverse coming off the 2nd rail on cross side/corner banks, or double straight backs or double back banks, they were every bit as easy as a single rail bank cross side/corner, or single full table banks. Today in banks you do not see hardly any of these banks, for they are very difficult with todays cushions.

But I stop playing for decades, and when I started up again, I never really practiced banking, but joining OP I started hitting a few, and could not see them, so I used that trick of aiming directly at the ob and that seemed to make the angle pop out, and I started making some banks again.

But to answer your question, I feel I had a back ground in banks, this plus actually practicing some banks, and letting go of my thoughts and relying on my instincts, then I started seeing the banks again. I still go back to aiming first directly at the ob if I feel I am not picking up the angle, and sure enough I was off, and sometimes I double check by using the diamonds. But you will have to practice just banks, 1 hr. a day is enough to make a champion! Practice should bring about seeing the banks, but you will have to do it everyday, because it is not like when we were young and pick up stuff easily and retain it.

I think english on the cb can tremendously effect the shot also. Also the cue tip hardness has a lot of effect on banking! Know your banks, know the english, know your cue tip! There are so many different cushions out there, wow. Cushions today are highly sensitive to everything for they tend to reverse a lot, or they can throw a lot. They grab the ball more, create more spin, and add spin the more rails you play the bank, that is why the diamond system is different today than yesteryear. Speed of the shot effects the rebound tremendously on these cushions today.

The old GC's banked well, unless the cushions played soft. Whitey
Like you I've had a few times when there was no pool for several years then
spent some time to regain some of the skills and feel again.
As I mentioned in the post before this one, I need to go through the process
of recognition and work on the basics. Repetition is the key to muscle memory,
and for the brain (what's left of it), to recognize the shots/angles. There ain't
no easy way to learn it just put in the time and wash, rinse & repeat.

Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts and experience.
Greatly appreciated it is.

hank
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Hank,
If you haven't already done so, go down the prior bank forum threads to 'Learning to Bank by Bugs'. I felt this was very well done, and like you, in re-learning banks, I use some of his methods for it made me realize some things.
One important aspect to be aware of, is that on many of his banks you'll notice he uses the same speed. This is important because speed has a great effect upon the ob coming off the rail on most all rails. So I would suggest trying using the same speed similar to Bugs, on his various shots, or a speed that you are comfortable with.

After you get somewhat comfortable with banking free shots, such as Bugs video, another thing I believe when banking, is to play shape. Believe it or not it will really help your banks. For it gives a purpose and an added focus to the bank.

I was watching a local bar table player hitting the balls around, and you could tell his focus was on just making the ball, many beginning or novice players do this, cinch the shot. I knew he had more in him than that, so I talked to him and told him to always have a meaning for your shot, like know what shape you want on the next ball. He did that, an instantly he pocketed balls better!
Purpose & Focus! Whitey
 
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Tobermory

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Reading the Beard or watching the Bugs tape might help give you some ideas, but nothing works better than hitting a million practice shots. Here's a practice routine that I've used over and over, even after 40 years of playing bank pool. Set up a shot, any shot. Forget about the cue ball (for now). Hit that shot 10 times hard with center cue ball and figure out what you have to do to make it. Next, hit the same shot 10 times at pocket speed with center cue ball and figure out what you have to do to make it. Next, same shot 10 times with a medium speed stun shot.

Next, same shot hard with center running English; then pocket speed with center running English; then stun it with center running English.

Next, same shot hard with center hold up English; then pocket speed with center holdup English; then stun it with center hold up English. 10 times each. Try to pay attention to the effect the English has on the object ball, and the cue ball. Do not underestimate the effectiveness of center spin bank shots, especially at speed.

Next, same shot hard with top running English; then pocket speed with top running English; then stun it with top running English.

Next, same shot hard with low running English; then pocket speed with low running English; then stun it with low running English.

Next, same shot hard with top hold up English; then soft with top hold up English; then stun it with top hold up English.

Next, same shot hard with low holdup English; then pocket speed with low holdup English; then stun it with low holdup English.

If you're bored by now, then banks may not be your game.

If doing this routine got you excited because you found yourself on a journey of mystery and adventure, then pick another shot and do it all again. Repeat until sated for the day, and come back tomorrow and do it again.

Have fun!
 

NH Steve

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Theoretically, bank shots are kind of twice as long as the equivalent straight in shots -- that makes them twice as tough in simple terms of the execution accuracy necessary to successful score your bank shots -- in a way. So all aspects of your fundamentals and improved accuracy pay off in banks. This to me is the big reason why more than any other discipline at DCC, those "non-bank-playing" players often run deep in the banks division, in my opinion. They simply execute so damn well, that extra distance in overall shot is less of a problem for them than it is for others -- even players that play banks all the time!

But then there is the other factor of course, the knowledge of how rebounds are influenced by english, speed and cut angle -- because of the cushion or cushions along the way. Regular banks players have these factors deep in their DNA from years of experience. However, in competition like DCC, those inexperienced players with great execution make up for their lack of knowledge a good bit by focusing on shots that don't require quite such deep feel adjustments. But I digress.

For me, I bank best when I shorten my bridge a little (to better control my english, or lack thereof), and I also try to put a little extra into my pre-shot routine to give myself the best chance to pocket my shot.

I often aim using my cue stick to help me accurately visualize exactly the first rail approach angle I think will be successful for my shot -- measuring the cut angle on the object ball essentially, even more so than picking a target spot on the rail -- although that cue stick aiming method gives the spot on the rail too -- it is not actually my primary focus -- that is primarily on locking in on my initial cut angle on the object ball, and letting the stroke speed and english take care of the rest.

I wish I could get more people to play up here -- I love the game but there is just no Banks tradition at all up here in NH.
 

hankh

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Tobermory & NH Steve, Howdy;

Thank you both for the drill and aiming tip. Starting to get a few suggestions to
work which is good. I'll have to take each one and work with it and then decide
which one 'works for me'.

Whitey, I have the Bugs video saved and have watched it a few times already.
Part of my "other stuff' I mentioned earlier. But, thanks for referencing it. It's
good to have reminders as I keep forgetting, ahhh, give me a minute ..... ahh,
I'll get back to ya on whatever it was ... ;), :rolleyes:

hank
 

NH Steve

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Tobermory & NH Steve, Howdy;

Thank you both for the drill and aiming tip. Starting to get a few suggestions to
work which is good. I'll have to take each one and work with it and then decide
which one 'works for me'.

Whitey, I have the Bugs video saved and have watched it a few times already.
Part of my "other stuff' I mentioned earlier. But, thanks for referencing it. It's
good to have reminders as I keep forgetting, ahhh, give me a minute ..... ahh,
I'll get back to ya on whatever it was ... ;), :rolleyes:

hank
Do you have Brumback's DVD's? I mean he is the greatest living banker in my opinion, and he shares his secrets in his DVD's -- how can you go wrong?? He sometimes pops in here too :)
 

hankh

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NH Steve, Howdy;

No I don't have them ...yet, on the shoppin' list.
Have seen a few of the Y-T short videos. If he was any more laid-back he'd be snoozin'. ( chuckle )

hank
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Hank, I reviewed your posts once again, and I see you put in the practice and done your homework viewing videos and books.
Therefore we might need to delve further. I was wondering when your banking, is there a consistent pattern whereas the bank either goes long or short, or is it inconsistent whereas either long or short can happen"?

Hopefully there is a consistent pattern, for this can be fixed, by you have to eventually realize that your brain is telling you; "that this is the correct angle", but eventually and at some point you have to realize it is the wrong angle, and thus you have to override it. It is like changing a bad habit. Tell it no, that can not be the angle. Seemingly simple, but that is why players miss a shot the same way all the time, they think this is where they need to hit it. The older you are the harder it is to get out of this mind set.

Now if the bank is inconsistently going long and short, then you will have to use aiming methods. Aiming methods, such as in your case whereas you have studied books and DVD's, can befuddle you for there are so many variations, just to much going on in your head when your down on the shot!

I gave you a new one, that probably not in a book or DVD, aim straight at the ob and see if that does not pop the angle out for you. The other is to keep it simple, by just dividing the angle in half by using the diamonds. I keep it simple, I try not to over think it. The thinking part is before your down on the shot, never once you are down on the shot.

I am saying all of this, for in instructing this one pupil, he had so many aiming methods, and so much going on in his head, he just could not simply lay down on the shot, and I think this might be going on with you.

To answer your question, what makes the light go off and you see the angle? I think after you go through the progression of the above mentioned then the light comes on. If not, keep persevering. I hope it happens! For when it does, you go whew, that sure is nice. Its a freedom!

Another thing that is helpful, is always rack and break the balls when practicing banks, this gives that, 'purpose and focus'. Never, just throw the balls out, that is for goofing off, or used as a calming effect, or just to practice a particular shot.

This seems quite long, but when we have such little info. from you then it creates so much more speculations! Tell us what going on in your head before and when your down on the shot, ok! Mentally and being physically sound plays a huge role in pocketing balls. I've struggled with this for some time, and it makes for inconsistency. Fred Whalen states; "Top Billiards takes a sound mind and healthy body. Whitey
 
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hankh

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Whitey, Howdy;

Thanks for your second look and the thoughts it generated.

Misses can be both short or long, no pattern there. I do get confused by all
the information but try very hard to remember that the brain is good for the
analysis of setting up the shot but truly sux when it comes to shooting the shot.
I try to keep the brain out of the mix when I get down on the shot and just
allow the muscle memory do it's own thing. But when learning any new skill the
brain keeps elbowing it's way in and kibitzing. So, I need to work a bit more on
mental discipline.

Tomorrow is free day at the VFW so I'll be there for a few hours doing some
drills and busting some racks. My normal routine is do some straight up and
backs (lagging), to find center ball, some side-to-sides for speed control.
Some lagging with 1,2 tips of left and right spin to get used to the table. After
that I generally shoot a few racks of 14.1 then whatever I intend to work on
that day either 8 or 9 ball, scatter 6 balls on the table try to work a pattern
so I can go from 1 to the next an the next to run them out and now Banks.
With every shot I attempt to let the brain do it's job then allow the muscles
to do theirs. Successful 40 to 60 percent of the time. It's a work in
continuous progress.

EDIT: To answer your question, " Tell us what going on in your head before and
when your down on the shot, ok!
" OK, when I look at a shot I try to see the half
between, then to see if there are obstructions in the way, what are the chances
of a scratch, where will the CB go, what speed will it need, can it get to where I
need it next without spin, or if not how much of which to 'make it work'. Once I
make-up my mind it's pretty much just get down on it and shoot. I generally take
a few practice strokes to get the feel for the speed, and check tip alignment for the
CB hit. Short pause, back-swing, another short pause contact CB and follow through.
While down on the shot just keep focus on spot on CB, monitor cue speed, and tip
alignment. After shot, OH JOY or oh poo dependent upon results.
A lot of my present confusion has to do with the new information that has been absorbed
Looking for alternate routs using either cut banks or pass-over banking they need their
own tips of English and I'm realizing this muddies the view. Best to keep it simple
and as my signature says keep it less complicated, don't need to run to the light it
might be a train. Best to take my time and approach slowly and enjoy the journey.

hank
 
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hankh

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Whitey and anyone else that wants to jump in, Howdy;

Well, what I noticed during Monday's practice was I miss 7 of 10 on the Short
side (crossing the OB's shotline to the pocket before reaching the pocket). This
I noticed while doing a drill with the OB lined up along the centerline and shooting
off the far rail to corner, side, and other corner pockets you probably know it.
Did this drills 6 times so I'd have some idea of what was the repeatable result.
Played 4 games of 9-ball banks. Found myself over analyzing so just went back
to some straight and 15 ball rotation.

Thanks for any constructive criticism.

hank
 
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Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Hi Hank,
Well you discovered that yes you do have a pattern of missing, coming up short. I hope this is derived by using constant variables, such as using the same speed and english. You have to do this!
I am assuming you are right handed!
I'd like you to put a stripe OB off the right 2nd diamond side rail, cb positioned on a line coming off the left 3rd diamond on opposite side rail. This will make you cut the ob slightly to pocket it cross corner. Right and left side of table is determined from looking at the table from the head of the table.
So go ahead and bank it. I want you to watch the ob, it will have natural spin on it, spinning clockwise, this spin will gradually keep working on the ob to make it come short. This is pretty prevalent with most cushions.

To overcome this either; put an extra tip of natural english (for this shot right hand english), for this will make it run truer to the pocket, or overcut the ob slightly more, which will compensate for the spin counterworking on the ob.

Now if your cushions do not put this spin on the ob ball then just cut the ob more, no extra english would be needed.

If you take the cb only and stroke it with center ball from the 2nd diamond side rail into the 1st. diamond of opposite side rail, the cb will run a little short of the center of the corner pocket and hit the facing of the side rail pocket. To bank it into the center of the pocket aim about a chalk width past (which is towards the corner pocket side of diamond) the 1st diamond. So in banking the ob it is better not to spit the angle from 2nd diamond to 1st diamond, but to go with a little more angle to hit the center of pocket or cushion on end rail which will allow it to go in the hole. This effect is not so prevalent say on an angle from side pocket to 2nd diamond.

If you are going to add a tip of natural (running) english to correct for coming short, I would advise to know your tip, and adjust accordingly. With soft tip I'd stay closer to center, med/med hard you can go with slightly more english. Soft tips will put more side spin on cb and translate more onto ob than a harder tip would do. In banking I like a med to med/hard tip.

One Pocket is unlike other games; whereas other games banking short of corner pocket leaves the ball safe generally, but in one pocket it leaves it on end rail whereas it is not as much of a threat as it would be in front of the pocket.

I think you are on your way, in figuring out your banks! Whitey
 
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lll

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possible reason for missing short
when you go thru diamonds on the 2:1 ratio you actually hit the rail before the nose point in front of the diamond
this tends to make the bank go 1/4 diamond short.
if you hit the nose of the rail in front of the diamond you should make the bank
these are natural type banks
banking diagram 2.jpg
 

hankh

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Whitey, Howdy;

I'm going to answer within your post using a Different color font.

Hi Hank,
Well you discovered that yes you do have a pattern of missing, coming up short. I hope this is derived by using constant variables, such as using the same speed and english. You have to do this! Yes I did.
I am assuming you are right handed! Yes I am
I'd like you to put a stripe OB off the right 2nd diamond side rail, cb positioned on a line coming off the left 3rd diamond on opposite side rail. This will make you cut the ob slightly to pocket it cross corner. Right and left side of table is determined from looking at the table from the head of the table.
So go ahead and bank it. I want you to watch the ob, it will have natural spin on it, spinning clockwise, this spin will gradually keep working on the ob to make it come short. This is pretty prevalent with most cushions. I can do this tomorrow before the 9-ball tourney. I can get
an hour in before the others start to show up. Only 25 cents per rack so it
ain't gonna break the piggy bank.


To overcome this either; put an extra tip of natural english (for this shot right hand english), for this will make it run truer to the pocket, or overcut the ob slightly more, which will compensate for the spin counterworking on the ob.

Now if your cushions do not put this spin on the ob ball then just cut the ob more, no extra english would be needed. Will see what happens before I try what you say in the paragraph above this one.

If you take the cb only and stroke it with center ball from the 2nd diamond side rail into the 1st. diamond of opposite side rail, the cb will run a little short of the center of the corner pocket and hit the facing of the side rail pocket. To bank it into the center of the pocket aim about a chalk width past (which is towards the corner pocket side of diamond) the 1st diamond. So in banking the ob it is better not to spit the angle from 2nd diamond to 1st diamond, but to go with a little more angle to hit the center of pocket or cushion on end rail which will allow it to go in the hole. This effect is not so prevalent say on an angle from side pocket to 2nd diamond.

If you are going to add a tip of natural (running) english to correct for coming short, I would advise to know your tip, and adjust accordingly. With soft tip I'd stay closer to center, med/med hard you can go with slightly more english. Soft tips will put more side spin on cb and translate more onto ob than a harder tip would do. In banking I like a med to med/hard tip. I use a Milkdud tip so I figure med. Hard to Hard

One Pocket is unlike other games; whereas other games banking short of corner pocket leaves the ball safe generally, but in one pocket it leaves it on end rail whereas it is not as much of a threat as it would be in front of the pocket.

I think you are on your way, in figuring out your banks! Whitey
Thanks for the thoughts and the suggestions. As mentioned in our post,
I have taken notes, made some diagrams and will see what happens. I'll
be back with results.

hank
 
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