Safety Play on a Frozen Object Ball

[J.R.]

This is a rules clarification question and has to do with a called "frozen ball." Can a called "frozen ball" be struck by the cue ball, come ever so slightly off the rail and then return to the same rail, be called a legal safety, without the cue ball or any other ball making contact to a rail? The reason the object ball would return to the rail could be based on a gulley in the cloth or a tilt in the table, or voodoo and a chant, but whatever the reason may be for it (object ball called frozen) to return to the same rail, is it a legal safety?

Below is from the Official OnePocket.org rules: "There is no option to ‘call a safety’ in One Pocket; if a player legally scores a ball into their own pocket they must shoot again, unless the game is over. Players may play safe to the same rail as many times as they wish, as long as either the cue ball or at least one object ball is driven to a cushion after the cue ball contacts an object ball. Standard ‘frozen ball’ rules apply to safety play."

What are the "standard 'frozen ball' rules in safety play" that are additional to "players may play safe to the same rail as many times as they wish, as long as either the cue ball or at least one object ball is driven to a cushion after the cue ball contacts an object ball?"

 

[crabbcatjohn]

No, that rail should be dead to the ball. That's why you call it frozen..

 

[cincy_kid]

No, that rail should be dead to the ball. That's why you call it frozen..

That's the way I understood it as well...

 

[gulfportdoc]

The rail onto which a ball is frozen is not "dead". In the case of a frozen OB, simply rolling up on that ball with the CB is a foul. However if the CB goes on to touch that rail, e.g. in a "high karate" shot, or by a thin hit, then it is not a foul. Here is the WPA applicable definition:

8.4 Driven to a Rail
A ball is said to be driven to a rail if it is not touching that rail and then touches that rail. A ball touching at the start of a shot (said to be 'frozen' to the rail) is not considered driven to that rail unless it leaves the rail and returns. ...

 

[Scrzbill]

The interpretation of the “frozen” ball rule always irritated me. If you shoot straight at the object ball with enough force there is a double kiss which is considered a foul. If you shoot a bank frozen to the rail, it’s a double kiss and a foul. I’ll play by the rules no matter how convoluted they may be.

 

[cincy_kid]

testing smiley

 

[crabbcatjohn]

testing smiley

Yea i couldn't get him to work in a earlier post

 

[crabbcatjohn]

BCA rule...
37. OBJECT BALL FROZEN TO CUSHION OR CUE BALL. This rule applies to any shot where the cue ball's first contact with a ball is with one that is frozen to a cushion or to the cue ball itself. after the cue ball makes contact with the frozen object ball, the shot must result in either (1) a ball being pocketed, or (2) the cue ball contacting a cushion, or (3) the frozen ball being caused to contact a cushion (not merely rebounding from the cushion it was frozen to), or (4) another object ball being caused to contact a cushion to which it was not already in contact with. Failure to satisfy one of those four requirements is a foul. (Note: 14.1 and other games specify additional requirements and applications of this rule; see specific game rules.) An object ball is not considered frozen to a rail unless it is examined and announced as such by either the referee or one of the players prior to that object ball being involved in a shot

 

[catkins]

the way I would interpret (3) the frozen ball being caused to contact a cushion (not merely rebounding from the cushion it was frozen to), is that the object ball needs to contact a rail after rebounding off the rail it is frozen too not that it would need to get to another rail. In my interpretation once you hit the object ball and it leaves the rail it has rebounded off if the gully in the cloth brings the object ball back to he rail it would be a legal hit

 

[Bob Jewett]

Rule 37 above is the BCAPL rule. It requires the ball to hit something if it's going back to the same rail for a contact count. The World Standardized Rules do not specify a reason. If the frozen ball leaves the cushion and returns for any reason (including a nasty rail groove) the contact counts under the WSR.

There are some people who think the rail the ball is frozen to is dead to any contact. They're wrong. Some people think if you're frozen to one section of a side rail both sections are dead for cushion contact. They're also wrong.

But I think the game would be better if the frozen ball rule went away. It causes more problems than it solves.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

The answer is BCAPL does not allow the gully roll to become a legal shot, whereas WPA does, as others have mentioned. But, a ob frozen to the rail that is contacted on a simultaneous hit (cb ball contacting the rail and ob at the same time) is a legal shot even though the ob does not leave the rail and no other rail is contacted and/or the ob is not pocketed. Whitey

 

[LSJohn]

8.4 Driven to a Rail
A ball touching at the start of a shot (said to be 'frozen' to the rail) is not considered driven to that rail unless it leaves the rail and returns. ...

IMO (here comes trouble) that means double-kissing a ball frozen to a rail would be a legal hit even if no ball other than the OB made a rail because a double hit would cause a brief OB separation from the rail and a return.

 

[sorackem]

IMO (here comes trouble) that means double-kissing a ball frozen to a rail would be a legal hit even if no ball other than the OB made a rail because a double hit would cause a brief OB separation from the rail and a return.

..been waiting for this; what situations would prevent my follow soft for a kiss off kiss back to the rail?
I know I must be missing something here.

 

[LSJohn]

..been waiting for this; what situations would prevent my follow soft for a kiss off kiss back to the rail?
I know I must be missing something here.

Problem is, to know for sure on some variations of this it would take a high-speed, stop-action video camera.

I don't know any way to write a rule that would fairly cover all similar situations because sometimes the CB would come off and go back and sometimes it wouldn't, with many close calls between them.

 

[gulfportdoc]

..been waiting for this; what situations would prevent my follow soft for a kiss off kiss back to the rail?
I know I must be missing something here.

Sorackem, I think your answer is contained in the first paragraph of post #10.

 

[sorackem]

Yes, right, and that's where your opponent paying honest attention would likely alleviate

(uh.. sorry; thank you Doc, thanks Bob..)

 

[Bob Jewett]

..been waiting for this; what situations would prevent my follow soft for a kiss off kiss back to the rail?
I know I must be missing something here.

If you shoot a frozen ball straight into the rail with a full hit it will kiss the cue ball as it starts to leave the rail but it never returns to the rail. The cue ball will normally actually advance a little while the object ball penetrates into the rubber and as the object ball starts to come back out of the cushion it hits the cue ball before it loses contact with the cushion. The concept of the OB getting double-kissed back into the rail after leaving it requires the cue ball to retreat a little due to the original collision (which will not happen for good balls), and stop and turn back to meet the object ball after the object ball leaves the cushion. High speed video has never seen this, so far as I know.

That having been said, it is possible with a very precise masse shot to shoot into a double kiss on a frozen ball and have the cue ball reverse course and go back for a third hit on the object ball and knock it into the cushion. Maybe Efren can do this, but I doubt that you or I could in fewer than 20 shots. And then you have to get the person who was watching to like the shot.

 

[LSJohn]

If you shoot a frozen ball straight into the rail with a full hit it will kiss the cue ball as it starts to leave the rail but it never returns to the rail. The cue ball will normally actually advance a little while the object ball penetrates into the rubber and as the object ball starts to come back out of the cushion it hits the cue ball before it loses contact with the cushion. The concept of the OB getting double-kissed back into the rail after leaving it requires the cue ball to retreat a little due to the original collision (which will not happen for good balls), and stop and turn back to meet the object ball after the object ball leaves the cushion. High speed video has never seen this, so far as I know.

That having been said, it is possible with a very precise masse shot to shoot into a double kiss on a frozen ball and have the cue ball reverse course and go back for a third hit on the object ball and knock it into the cushion. Maybe Efren can do this, but I doubt that you or I could in fewer than 20 shots. And then you have to get the person who was watching to like the shot.

Thanks, Bob. News to me, and glad to know it.

 

[sorackem]

[...] And then you have to get the person who was watching to like the shot.

This is going to keep me up all night.. I love it.
Thanks again Bob.

 

[Scrzbill]

Here’s the thing, I grew up to where a frozen bank shot was considered a foul because of the double kiss always be seen. The best way we determined the double hit at Louisville’s Parkmoor was too listen. Now Truman many years ago showed me how to avoid the double kiss by hopping the object ball over the cue. He could make it blindfolded. Me forty years later and I still can’t do it. Now I move to California and there is no such thing as a double kiss because>...............Like I said Ill play any rules as long as there is an agreement.