Utilizing maximum outside spin/english...

One Pocket Ghost

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Ghostie, how about developing the matter of getting comfortable using maximum side spin a little more? Nobody ever advised me to do that.

Bill...I thought your post/request should be in a separate thread so as not to get lost....I'll get back to this in a coupla days after I get on a table...but in the meantime...I put up a related post back in April that I don't know if you saw or not, re. one of the very important applications in using max. outside english when playing One Pocket...here is that post, and also Jeff's' comment/post afterwards >>>

I will oftentimes, when needed, shoot a 5, 6, or 7, foot cut shot (for example, approx. a 1/2ball hit cut shot), softly/at pocket speed, with extreme/maximum outside english - I am able to retain acceptable accuracy approx. 90%-100% of the time with my hit when doing this...

As for my having said above "when needed" - that means...

I'll do my best to explain.....let's say that I have a cut shot where the natural angle to pocket the ball is such that by using no english to one tip of outside english when pocketing the object ball, the cueball will not carom widely enough after contacting the object ball so that it will track off at the angle that I need it to...so then...

I will hit the object ball approx. 1/5th-1/4th too full to naturally make it - but I will be shooting with extreme/maximum outside english, which will twist the object ball into being made/into my pocket - and this fuller hit that I made on the object ball, will cause a wider carom angle after contact, sending my cueball on the track that I need it to go on <----- as in, to avoid a natural angle pocket scratch, or to attain position that was otherwise unattainable.

Imo, being able to execute this method (shooting softly and accurately with extreme outside english) is extremely important to have in your bag of One Pocket tools...every player should practice it if they're not comfortable with it.

- Ghost


That’s as well as that shot can be explained...👍 and it’s still takes practice to understand the explanation, as well as the shot... Good work... as usual Ghost...
 

Tobermory

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There is much to be learned. For the last few years, I've tried to incorporate what I can remember from my discussions with Hal Houle, and what I taught myself much later after exposure to CJ Wiley's touch of inside ideas. What I got from all that was a way to aim using mostly inside but also outside. In short, the aiming system was designed to incorporate the expected deflection of the cue ball so that it would hit the object ball at the contact point causing it to compensate for the anticipated throw created when the cue ball strikes the object ball. Got that? Eventually, I worked it out for myself so I now have more than just instinct and feel and experience to draw upon, but a pretty useful system for aiming and controlling the cue ball at the same time. It may not hold up to Dr. Dave or Bob Jewett's scrutiny, but it kinda works for me.

The critical aspect of this idea is cue ball deflection: even though I use a Revo now, it still causes deflection on every off center shot, so my goal was to harness the power of deflection whilst aiming.

Just before the lockdown, I spent some time studying the stroke of Alex P., especially shots where he is applying english, and what I realized is that he hits many spin shots without causing deflection on the cue ball, and he uses a wood shaft, not even a predator. So that got me thinking about how to hit an off center cue ball to cause the least amount of deflection possible. In my pandemic era practice, which has been not much, what I'm gleaning so far is that if I don't poke or punch or stroke with authority, but slowly follow through on the shot, I can reduce deflection dramatically and aim at the Houle spots without the deflection compensation built in.

As I'm writing all of this, I realize how hard it is to put any of this into words, so I hope it makes sense to someone out there.

So Mr. Ghost, I think this is what you are getting at in this thread...how to aim that shot with max spin but minimum deflection. In your example, you are hitting the object ball fuller than would get you to the ghost ball contact point (undercutting it, in other words) but using the spin to gear the ball into the pocket. So tell me: how are you accounting for the deflection when you set up to aim this shot?
 

mr3cushion

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This less than 90 degree cut would be much more difficult to make and aim with, 'outside english' (max 3 O'clock).
I'm actually applying, 7 O'clock english to make this shot.

Two views.


 
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One Pocket Ghost

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So Mr. Ghost, I think this is what you are getting at in this thread...how to aim that shot with max spin but minimum deflection. <--- No, I am not/have no intention of talking about aiming..........In your example, you are hitting the object ball fuller than would get you to the ghost ball contact point (undercutting it, in other words) but using the spin to gear the ball into the pocket. <--- Yes, that is exactly what I am doing...........So tell me: how are you accounting for the deflection when you set up to aim this shot? <--- .Well, unfortunately, I'm afraid my method for this, and for judging bank shots and kick shots takes many, many, years to master = because I use >>> "The million ball system" 000000LIGLK.gif

- Ghost
 

vapros

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Fascinating subject. The relationship between spin and deflection remains a mystery to me. I'm thinking that maximum spin brings maximum deflection. No doubt the new hi-tech shafts make it better. Reading Tobermory's comment here, I would have disagreed with him - it seems to me that the smooth stroke deflects more than the sharp contact. (?) I am amazed to see that Santos Sambajon and Efren Reyes seem to have it worked out very well. I wonder if they could explain it in a way I could understand.

Looking forward to more traffic in this thread. Thanks Ghostie -
 

One Pocket Ghost

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Fascinating subject. The relationship between spin and deflection remains a mystery to me. I'm thinking that maximum spin brings maximum deflection.

Looking forward to more traffic in this thread. Thanks Ghostie
<<< You're welcome Bill.

It's not as simple as that Bill, cuz how hard you fire the cueball plays into the equation big time..as in...if you shot your cueball mucho hard with 2:30 english you'd get more deflection than if you shot very softly with 3:00 english.
 

Tobermory

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Maybe not, is what I'm finding. A sharp poke at the cue ball creates more deflection than a smooth push through the cue ball. The effect is easy to test. Set up a ball two diamonds away from a rail, put a coin on the rail and shot 50 shots at the coin, using sharp pokes and slow smooth pushes and everything in between, and observe what happens.

Sure, but what I meant was that, at any given speed, greater spin means greater deflection. Do you agree?
 

Tobermory

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I realize that talking about aiming is the 3rd rail on pool forums, and I purposefully didn't explain/reveal my super secret system for aiming inerrancy, but you have to concede that one way or another, if you use spin, you have to deal with deflection when making your judgment as to where to aim, even if you use the ultimate subjectivity inherent in the infinite sliding scale required by the million ball system.

<--- No, I am not/have no intention of talking about aiming..

 

vapros

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Be safe. Wear your mask and don't step on the third rail - a deadly subject. Anyway, you aim too far to the left. How do you ever hit anything? :giggle:
 

Tobermory

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Well, since you asked, if you aim to over cut on the left side but use a stun ball stroke with left english, and you know the secret aiming formula, you can deflect the cue ball to the exact right spot on the object ball and never miss! Left is right!

Be safe. Wear your mask and don't step on the third rail - a deadly subject. Anyway, you aim too far to the left. How do you ever hit anything? :giggle:
 

Ratamon

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The other thing is to keep the cue as parallel to the table surface as you can. You don’t want to add masse into the mix when you have enough trouble dealing with the deflection and the collision induced throw.
 

catkins

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Well, since you asked, if you aim to over cut on the left side but use a stun ball stroke with left english, and you know the secret aiming formula, you can deflect the cue ball to the exact right spot on the object ball and never miss! Left is right!
i always think of this as pinching the ball meaning if I know there is a side that i am more likely to miss a ball I over compensate to the facing and use English to bring it back
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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I do not think Ghost intended this to be a thread about squirt/deflection, of which I do not like either term. I like cb 'push'.

This thread IMO is what happens after contact to the ob and the cb when using max english. Whitey
 

Tobermory

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Very true. A level cue will reduce that variable.

The other thing is to keep the cue as parallel to the table surface as you can. You don’t want to add masse into the mix when you have enough trouble dealing with the deflection and the collision induced throw.
 

lll

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I do not think Ghost intended this to be a thread about squirt/deflection, of which I do not like either term. I like cb 'push'.

This thread IMO is what happens after contact to the ob and the cb when using max english. Whitey
i think it was to discuss thinning the 2 and spinning to the 3
vs
hitting the 2 fuller with draw and spin to go more directly to the 3
it was not to discuss the merits of moving the 2 out of there with the fuller hit but that example of 2 ways to get to the same spot
as often happens in the first few innings after the break when you want to come off a ball thats alittle high to get behind a ball on the foot rail
red more spin
yellow more draw
max spin thread.png
 

catkins

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The difference between hitting the rail perpendicular and even a milometer off in the direction the spin is taking you is massive with this kind of shot
 

lll

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The difference between hitting the rail perpendicular and even a milometer off in the direction the spin is taking you is massive with this kind of shot
i understand chris
but for me often its easier to hit it soft and spin than harder to "force" it there
since a milometer too low or high is maybe not so massive but will still have you miss your target
 
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